Author Topic: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?  (Read 23244 times)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #150 on: April 18, 2009, 10:01:13 PM »
also, while it's on my mind, I had a bit of a chuckle on your take of Oswald's shooting.  I have one of his shooting books somewhere and it wasn't that impressive.  Keep in mind the targets are not moving.  I scored expert, above Oswald on every one of my qualifications.  No offense to anyone out there but those who didn't score expert were not very good.  Oswald scored marksman on one qualification. I can't even imagine shooting marksman and later being considered a good shot ::)  Now move a person who only scored sharpshooter at his best to shooting a moving target through foliage and not any moving target but one that is surely to have your heart racing.  As compared to American civilian males his age being an excellent shot, that doesn't shock me at all they would say that.  Most american males his age coming from the city and never before or rarely shooting a rifle and of course, what are they going to say, "we're sending Marines into combat that arn't good shooters?" Of course they said that.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #151 on: April 18, 2009, 10:07:15 PM »
I've probably only read 500 pages of it total.  Just the good stuff.   I find it interesting that a guy who counters CT's wrote a book accusing GWB of murder.

So what did Hunt say exactly?   I started reading the article and it read like a Omni magazine article.  Lots of story.  Got board.  



WHAT?  dude, if that story bores you, you probably shouldn't be engaging in JFK talk.  That is one of the most exciting things to come out in recent years.  Read it, it's not that long and I can't fathom calling it a omni story...  I picked that story because it gives some background.  I could have just posted his deathbed confession but if you're not familiar with all of the subplot, it's easy to just write it off as some nut.  As usual, dammed if I do, dammed if I don't....

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #152 on: April 18, 2009, 10:08:59 PM »
CIA organized it, LHO was only a patsy.

So because they had the ability to do it and it was a function of theirs that proves they did it?

What evidence is there of them doing this?

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #153 on: April 18, 2009, 10:11:06 PM »
also, while it's on my mind, I had a bit of a chuckle on your take of Oswald's shooting.  I have one of his shooting books somewhere and it wasn't that impressive.  Keep in mind the targets are not moving.  I scored expert, above Oswald on every one of my qualifications.  No offense to anyone out there but those who didn't score expert were not very good.  Oswald scored marksman on one qualification. I can't even imagine shooting marksman and later being considered a good shot ::)  Now move a person who only scored sharpshooter at his best to shooting a moving target through foliage and not any moving target but one that is surely to have your heart racing.  As compared to American civilian males his age being an excellent shot, that doesn't shock me at all they would say that.  Most american males his age coming from the city and never before or rarely shooting a rifle and of course, what are they going to say, "we're sending Marines into combat that arn't good shooters?" Of course they said that.

It took him 3 shots to get the kill.  I would imagine a trained sniper would have nailed him in one shot.

Also to, JFK was moving more away from him, not side to side, making the shot easier.

On a side note:  did you read Generation Kill?  The author was taken back at how good of a shot regular soldiers were.

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #154 on: April 18, 2009, 10:13:50 PM »
WHAT?  dude, if that story bores you, you probably shouldn't be engaging in JFK talk.  That is one of the most exciting things to come out in recent years.  Read it, it's not that long and I can't fathom calling it a omni story...  I picked that story because it gives some background.  I could have just posted his deathbed confession but if you're not familiar with all of the subplot, it's easy to just write it off as some nut.  As usual, dammed if I do, dammed if I don't....

Chill out dude, I'm not damning you.  I'm just tired, sleepy.  I thought it might be easier to get to the crux and then work backwards. 

You just showed you age, knowing about Omni magazine  :)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #155 on: April 18, 2009, 10:20:33 PM »
It toke him 3 shots to get the kill.  I would imagine a trained sniper would have nailed him in one shot.
sniper?  An expert goes on to be a sniper.  This is a guy who scored marksman and sharpshooter.  That would be an expert after a few six packs.  I'm serious, you have to suck to score marksman even once.  I can't fathom it.  I would have to switch shooting hands and have a few brews to do that.  He hit the mark 2 out of 3 and again, I go back to my post above for the rest.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #156 on: April 18, 2009, 10:22:32 PM »
Chill out dude, I'm not damning you.  I'm just tired, sleepy.  I thought it might be easier to get to the crux and then work backwards. 

You just showed you age, knowing about Omni magazine  :)
best advice I ever got was from Omni.  They had an article in the 80's about how to cure the common cold.  It's worked for me 90 percent of the time.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #157 on: April 18, 2009, 10:29:42 PM »
The author was taken back at how good of a shot regular soldiers were.
we were comparing to your average citizen as per the comment, I agree.  Maybe you missed my point I made in that post.  I did not intend to degrade the shooting skills of soldiers and marines.

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #158 on: April 18, 2009, 10:41:09 PM »
sniper?  An expert goes on to be a sniper.  This is a guy who scored marksman and sharpshooter.  That would be an expert after a few six packs.  I'm serious, you have to suck to score marksman even once.  I can't fathom it.  I would have to switch shooting hands and have a few brews to do that.  He hit the mark 2 out of 3 and again, I go back to my post above for the rest.

So are you saying he couldn't have made the shot?  Or are you saying its not likely?

He had experience shooting.  He shot at an above average level.  No one knows how much practice he had shooting before he shot JFK.  He had a pre-sighted position.  And it was 60 meters on his first shot.

Its very possible he can make the shot.

Now if he hadn't ever been in the military or was less than marksman, the shot wasn't pre-sighted and it was farther away, I tend to agree the odds of him making the shot are too remote.

I'm not slamming Omni.  I just remember most of their articles as being bloated back then.  So what was the advice they gave you on colds?


MB_722

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #159 on: April 18, 2009, 11:01:11 PM »
So because they had the ability to do it and it was a function of theirs that proves they did it?

What evidence is there of them doing this?

because they could doesn't prove it. They had their reasons

F1 is starting, I'll come back to this later. too late to start digging  :)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #160 on: April 18, 2009, 11:09:53 PM »
So are you saying he couldn't have made the shot?  Or are you saying its not likely?

He had experience shooting.  He shot at an above average level.  No one knows how much practice he had shooting before he shot JFK.  He had a pre-sighted position.  And it was 60 meters on his first shot.

Its very possible he can make the shot.

Now if he hadn't ever been in the military or was less than marksman, the shot wasn't pre-sighted and it was farther away, I tend to agree the odds of him making the shot are too remote.

I'm not slamming Omni.  I just remember most of their articles as being bloated back then.  So what was the advice they gave you on colds?


no, my main contention was trying to make him sound like a good shooter.  He could make the shot, it's by far not impossible, just that it's silly to spin him into more than what he was and when I read that he's and excellent shot, I just can't go along with that based on my experience.  And again, you have to put above average into perspective.  If you were able to take the average of all citizens, the average probably sucks ass.  Scoring marksman is a little better than sucking ass. For someone who teetered between marksman and sharpshooter on a stationary target, I wouldn't have a lot of confidence they could make a moving mark and one that would have any normal person's heart racing.

The cold advice was really good shit.  The cold virus breeds or whatever they call it at temps less than body temp.  That's why is starts out in the nose and spreads from there.  So if you just pinch off your nose and breath through your mouth at the first sign of catching a cold, you can end it right away.  It doesn't always work but works pretty good most of the time.  I've also just turned up the temp in addition to breathing through my mouth and that works even better.  These days for some reason I don't have to worry about it.  I've only come down with a full blown cold or flu once since 2000.

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #161 on: April 18, 2009, 11:18:24 PM »
no, my main contention was trying to make him sound like a good shooter.  He could make the shot, it's by far not impossible, just that it's silly to spin him into more than what he was and when I read that he's and excellent shot, I just can't go along with that based on my experience.  And again, you have to put above average into perspective.  If you were able to take the average of all citizens, the average probably sucks ass.  Scoring marksman is a little better than sucking ass. For someone who teetered between marksman and sharpshooter on a stationary target, I wouldn't have a lot of confidence they could make a moving mark and one that would have any normal person's heart racing.

The cold advice was really good shit.  The cold virus breeds or whatever they call it at temps less than body temp.  That's why is starts out in the nose and spreads from there.  So if you just pinch off your nose and breath through your mouth at the first sign of catching a cold, you can end it right away.  It doesn't always work but works pretty good most of the time.  I've also just turned up the temp in addition to breathing through my mouth and that works even better.  These days for some reason I don't have to worry about it.  I've only come down with a full blown cold or flu once since 2000.

Point taken, I agree.  Not a "good" shooter, but had the ability to make the shot.

Thanks for the cold info.  gn. 

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #162 on: April 19, 2009, 09:51:55 AM »
because they could doesn't prove it. They had their reasons

F1 is starting, I'll come back to this later. too late to start digging  :)

Motive and ability also doesn't prove guilt.

andreisdaman

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #163 on: April 19, 2009, 06:50:49 PM »

Remember Michael Corleone's famous quote from the Godfather 2 about killing people and what history has taught us.





no..please enlighten me

Soul Crusher

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #164 on: April 19, 2009, 07:11:52 PM »


no..please enlighten me

"If history has taught us anything, it is that you can kill anyone"

andreisdaman

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #165 on: April 20, 2009, 04:31:52 PM »
"If history has taught us anything, it is that you can kill anyone"



agreed.....if you look at the history of presidential assasinations in this country, they were all carried out by civilians...no political connections...no one in government..just some crazy person with an agenda...they are the most dangerous because they fly below the radar and aren't detected......

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #166 on: April 20, 2009, 05:43:24 PM »
"If history has taught us anything, it is that you can kill anyone"
is it in dispute that someone killed him? lol...

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #167 on: April 20, 2009, 05:44:56 PM »
out of curiosity what does Vincent have to say about the deathbed coffessions of E. Howard Hunt?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/13893143/the_last_confessions_of_e_howard_hunt/print

You'll have to read the book yourself.  He mentions him on about 12 pages though out the book.  He shows how Hunt wasn't there when the TRamp photos where taken and how a nationally recognized expert in photo identification says it's not them.

I read the Rolling Stone article.  Doesn't mean much to me, because there is nothing tangible to lock on to.  Honestly, it looks like his son is trying to make some cash on who his father was.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #168 on: April 20, 2009, 06:27:43 PM »
You'll have to read the book yourself.  He mentions him on about 12 pages though out the book.  He shows how Hunt wasn't there when the TRamp photos where taken and how a nationally recognized expert in photo identification says it's not them.

I read the Rolling Stone article.  Doesn't mean much to me, because there is nothing tangible to lock on to.  Honestly, it looks like his son is trying to make some cash on who his father was.
his son hasn't made shit on it.  nobody would publish his book so he was actually spending more money  to print it on demand at kinkos for people who wanted it.  He probably made some on radio shows.

Ozmo, no offense but you know the guys that latch onto every conspiracy theory like it's absolutely true.  You're kind of the opposite but same, you latch on to the first convenient debunking and stand solid.  Like the Chinese moon walk.  You were 95% sure and then the luke came along and provided a debunking lol and you dropped that to 5% on The Luke's testimony lol...  You've read 1/3 of a book on debunking JFK CTrs and watched JFK.  Yet your solid.  I've probably watched a hundred hours of material, and dozens of books through the years, done my own research, and it took me a while to feel pretty sure there was a conspiracy beyond just Oswald.  You also seem to be locked down on not considering anything unless the evidence is 5000% proof positive no question remotely possible and it must be of the highest quality available.  You really have to lighten up a bit and be open to considering a body of evidence rather than seeing each individual portion isn't the ultimate in smoking guns. 

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #169 on: April 20, 2009, 06:59:17 PM »
his son hasn't made shit on it.  nobody would publish his book so he was actually spending more money  to print it on demand at kinkos for people who wanted it.  He probably made some on radio shows.

It's not what he "made" its what he tried to "make".  Because he hasn't made any money on it doesn't mean he didn't originally intend to.  His credibility is probably in serious question.

BTW  I know first hand the Kinkos thing.   ;D

Quote
Ozmo, no offense but you know the guys that latch onto every conspiracy theory like it's absolutely true.  You're kind of the opposite but same, you latch on to the first convenient debunking and stand solid.  Like the Chinese moon walk.  You were 95% sure and then the luke came along and provided a debunking lol and you dropped that to 5% on The Luke's testimony lol...  You've read 1/3 of a book on debunking JFK CTrs and watched JFK.  Yet your solid.  I've probably watched a hundred hours of material, and dozens of books through the years, done my own research, and it took me a while to feel pretty sure there was a conspiracy beyond just Oswald.  You also seem to be locked down on not considering anything unless the evidence is 5000% proof positive no question remotely possible and it must be of the highest quality available.  You really have to lighten up a bit and be open to considering a body of evidence rather than seeing each individual portion isn't the ultimate in smoking guns.


That's how discovery works.  You initially think it's one thing then you discover later you were incorrect.  You posted that China clip about the time it happened.  I was 95% sure, based on my limited knowledge.  Luke presented a more knowledgeable counter.  Now, 7 months after the space walk,  the main stream scientific community or a group or even a respected person has not come forward to say:  Hey those are bubbles!  The lighting is in water and those are stadium lights! 

The difference between me and others on this board who do not believe in CT's is that i will debate and discuss it.  Because i am interested in the truth.  Because of that i am open to change my mind.  I didn't believe in the 9/11 CT at first.  For a while i did when 240 first started to talk about it.  I researched it pretty heavy and changed my mind seeing it for what it was: 19 hijackers.  Not holograms and such. 

This Rolling Stone story.  It's a story that doesn't give much tangible stuff.   I would think if E. Howard Hunt really wanted to come clean he'd had made a statement himself for the press.  Even then, St. John (former tweak) doesn't give much more than a story.  Had Hunt or son supplied a taped conversation, a bonafide official document or brought to light undeniable evidence that contradicted the official story you'd see me changing my tune.  However, most CT's seem to hinge on weak evidence and are heavy on rhetoric to prove their points such as what 240 supplies plenty of.

Another thing, in pursuit of the truth, if an event happens and the "evidence" and "facts" point to a conclusion then its up the the accusers to prove its wrong.  Until then i must stay with the evidence and facts and obvious conclusions until new evidence and facts suggest otherwise.  Why?  Because i want the real truth. 

I became this way from talking CT's on here on this forum.   ;D  I wasn't like this before.



Hugo Chavez

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #170 on: April 20, 2009, 07:08:19 PM »
It's not what he "made" its what he tried to "make".  Because he hasn't made any money on it doesn't mean he didn't originally intend to.  His credibility is probably in serious question.

BTW  I know first hand the Kinkos thing.   ;D


That's how discovery works.  You initially think it's one thing then you discover later you were incorrect.  You posted that China clip about the time it happened.  I was 95% sure, based on my limited knowledge.  Luke presented a more knowledgeable counter.  Now, 7 months after the space walk,  the main stream scientific community or a group or even a respected person has not come forward to say:  Hey those are bubbles!  The lighting is in water and those are stadium lights! 

The difference between me and others on this board who do not believe in CT's is that i will debate and discuss it.  Because i am interested in the truth.  Because of that i am open to change my mind.  I didn't believe in the 9/11 CT at first.  For a while i did when 240 first started to talk about it.  I researched it pretty heavy and changed my mind seeing it for what it was: 19 hijackers.  Not holograms and such. 

This Rolling Stone story.  It's a story that doesn't give much tangible stuff.   I would think if E. Howard Hunt really wanted to come clean he'd had made a statement himself for the press.  Even then, St. John (former tweak) doesn't give much more than a story.  Had Hunt or son supplied a taped conversation, a bonafide official document or brought to light undeniable evidence that contradicted the official story you'd see me changing my tune.  However, most CT's seem to hinge on weak evidence and are heavy on rhetoric to prove their points such as what 240 supplies plenty of.

Another thing, in pursuit of the truth, if an event happens and the "evidence" and "facts" point to a conclusion then its up the the accusers to prove its wrong.  Until then i must stay with the evidence and facts and obvious conclusions until new evidence and facts suggest otherwise.  Why?  Because i want the real truth. 

I became this way from talking CT's on here on this forum.   ;D  I wasn't like this before.



Is there a single conspiracy theory out there you believe?  Seriously, if you won't look at anything unless it's a smoking gun as you say would be needed to change your tune, wow...

question for you, do you think in general we should attempt to apply the same kind of standards in discussing conspiracy theory that the American Justice System applies in cases?  Do you think that's a good benchmark?

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #171 on: April 20, 2009, 07:45:17 PM »
Is there a single conspiracy theory out there you believe?  Seriously, if you won't look at anything unless it's a smoking gun as you say would be needed to change your tune, wow...


I didn't say that or didn't mean to imply i wouldn't look at it unless its a smoking gun.  I told you and have demonstrated I will look at and discuss them.  I just start from a different place than you do i guess.  For me the burden is on the accuser.  For you it seems the burden is on the other.

Off the top of my head:

-  I believe the Catholic church is in possession of artifacts, scrolls that would negates the churches power.
-  I believe BUSH knew dam well there wasn't WMD's in Iraq
-  I believe E. T's have visited our planet.

But, I do realize these are beliefs and are not supported by strong facts or evidence at this time.  In other words i understand what these beliefs are.

Quote
question for you, do you think in general we should attempt to apply the same kind of standards in discussing conspiracy theory that the American Justice System applies in cases?  Do you think that's a good benchmark?

I think if you want to change the official record you have to.  For example, St. John's story would get shredded in court as 2nd hand hear say. Otherwise all we have speculation.  In discussing it, we can do what ever we want.  I tend, to want more tangible stuff, as the internet can spout lots of inaccurate stuff.






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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #172 on: April 20, 2009, 07:50:38 PM »
-  I believe E. T's have visited our planet.

Woah.

We're supposed to take you seriously when you believe in little green men?

I suppose you have just invalidated every point you've ever made here by the admission you believe in this guy



This is the same way you invalidate everything alex jones says because some of it is wrong.

OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #173 on: April 20, 2009, 07:58:29 PM »
Woah.

We're supposed to take you seriously when you believe in little green men?

I suppose you have just invalidated every point you've ever made here by the admission you believe in this guy






 ;D

Quote
But, I do realize these are beliefs and are not supported by strong facts or evidence at this time.  In other words i understand what these beliefs are


OzmO

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Re: Anyone still believe in the JFK assasination conspiracy?
« Reply #174 on: April 20, 2009, 08:08:56 PM »


This is the same way you invalidate everything alex jones says because some of it is wrong.



i didn't say he was full of shit when he introduced himself as Alex Jones!   ;D