Author Topic: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison  (Read 14888 times)

Decker

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2007, 11:07:47 AM »
Decker you won't find a bigger "law and order" person than me.  But what I don't like is unfairness in the system.  I don't see this Libby prosecution as much different than what happened to Clinton.  I was opposed to that witch hunt too.  There was no underlying wrongdoing there either.  I'm opposed to the Gonzales witch hunt for the same reason.  It's a waste of time and money IMO.

It looks like what happened here was they targeted Libby as the source of the leak and when that didn't pan out they charged him with lying and "obstruction" (obstructing what??). 

I don't condone people lying to authorities, but there has to be some common sense and proper exercise of discretion by people who have an enormous amount of power.
Clinton's case involved a dismissed civil lawsuit.  The Libby case involves national security our country.

I'd say those are two very different things with the Libby case being extremely important.

I would love to answer your question, but the truth is is that I don't know the answer.  I can guess.  But this subject matter (WMD covert agent exposed/time of war/national security) is too big of a topic to not seek answers.

As for Gonzales, there were enough republicans calling for his resignation to justify bipartisanship--i.e. not a witch hunt.

Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2007, 11:13:14 AM »
Clinton's case involved a dismissed civil lawsuit.  The Libby case involves national security our country.

I'd say those are two very different things with the Libby case being extremely important.

I would love to answer your question, but the truth is is that I don't know the answer.  I can guess.  But this subject matter (WMD covert agent exposed/time of war/national security) is too big of a topic to not seek answers.

As for Gonzales, there were enough republicans calling for his resignation to justify bipartisanship--i.e. not a witch hunt.

I would agree with you if Libby impacted national security.  He didn't.  But I'm not going to get too worked up over Libby, because assuming he can remain free pending appeal, Bush will pardon him before he leaves office. 

How many of the nearly 300 Republicans in Congress called for the resignation of Gonzales?  The Gonzales matter is a Democrat-manufactured controversy. 

Decker

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2007, 11:34:22 AM »
I would agree with you if Libby impacted national security.  He didn't.  But I'm not going to get too worked up over Libby, because assuming he can remain free pending appeal, Bush will pardon him before he leaves office. 

How many of the nearly 300 Republicans in Congress called for the resignation of Gonzales?  The Gonzales matter is a Democrat-manufactured controversy. 

Libby obstructed an ongoing investigation into finding the official that leaked the i.d. of Plame--a WMD spy.  That necessarily affects our national security during a time of war.

Sen. John Sununu, Chuck Hagel, Tom Coburn, Adam Putnam, Pat Roberts, John McCain and Gordon Smith all want Gonzales gone.

militarymuscle69

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2007, 11:38:31 AM »
Libby obstructed an ongoing investigation into finding the official that leaked the i.d. of Plame--a WMD spy.  That necessarily affects our national security during a time of war.

Sen. John Sununu, Chuck Hagel, Tom Coburn, Adam Putnam, Pat Roberts, John McCain and Gordon Smith all want Gonzales gone.

Hagel and McCain are democrats...
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Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2007, 11:43:21 AM »
Libby obstructed an ongoing investigation into finding the official that leaked the i.d. of Plame--a WMD spy.  That necessarily affects our national security during a time of war.

Sen. John Sununu, Chuck Hagel, Tom Coburn, Adam Putnam, Pat Roberts, John McCain and Gordon Smith all want Gonzales gone.

Libby obstructed an ongoing investigation into a crime that apparently never happened.  No impact on national security. 

Assuming those 7 members of Congress called for Gonzales' resignation, you call that bipartisan? 

Decker

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2007, 12:22:40 PM »
Libby obstructed an ongoing investigation into a crime that apparently never happened.  No impact on national security. 

Assuming those 7 members of Congress called for Gonzales' resignation, you call that bipartisan? 
Yes I would call that bipartisan.  Hagel and McCain are leaders and if they speak out you can bet the rank and file is not far behind.

Exposing the secret identity of a covert agent during a time of war who specializes in hard to get intelligence regarding Iranian nuclear weapons development and acquisition has no effect on national security?

If that doesn't qualify, then what exactly does?

Decker

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #106 on: June 06, 2007, 12:30:37 PM »
It's not just Plame's career that is over b/c of this leak.  Her CIA cover organization Brewster-Jennings and all ties to it are now dead.

The money, workhours, international relations were all wasted b/c of the leak.

We are less safe for it.

Straw Man

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2007, 12:46:51 PM »
Libby obstructed an ongoing investigation into a crime that apparently never happened.  No impact on national security. 

Assuming those 7 members of Congress called for Gonzales' resignation, you call that bipartisan? 

How do you arrive at the conclusion that there was no impact on National Security.   

The CIA front company Brewster Jennings was destroyed and the damage assesment has never been revealed but it's rumored that assets (i.e informants) were assasinated.   

Plame was covert at the time she was outed

The investigation was initiated at the request of the CIA so I guess it's safe to assume that they thought a crime had been commited

Libby's own notes state that he learned of Plames identity from Cheney

Libby is a friggin lawyer.  If he KNEW he had not commited a crime then why lie about it and open himself up to perjury and obstruction charges.   He must really feel like an ass that he chose to lie when he simply could have told the truth and gotten off. 

Here's a relevent comparison from John Dean:

In July 1984, Samuel Morrison - the grandson of the eminent naval historian with the same name - leaked three classified photos to Jane's Defense Weekly. The photos were of the Soviet Union's first nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, which had been taken by a U.S. spy satellite.

Although the photos compromised no national security secrets, and were not given to enemy agents, the Reagan Administration prosecuted the leak. That raised the question: Must the leaker have an evil purpose to be prosecuted?

The Administration argued that the answer was no. As with Britain's Official Secrets Acts, the leak of classified material alone was enough to trigger imprisonment for up to ten years and fines. And the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit agreed. It held that the such a leak might be prompted by "the most laudable motives, or any motive at all," and it would still be a crime. As a result, Morrison went to jail.

Here is the CIA's damage assesment after Aldrich Ames - see if you think some of this might apply to the outing of Plame and worse Brewster Jennings:

 The damage which Aldrich Ames did to his country can be summarized in three categories:

-- By revealing to the Soviet Union the identities of many assets who were providing information to the United States, he not only caused their executions, but also made it much more difficult to understand what was going on in the Soviet Union at a crucial time in its history;

-- By revealing to the Soviet Union the way in which the United States sought intelligence and handled assets, he made it much more difficult for this country to gather vital information in other countries as well;

-- By revealing to the Soviet Union identities of assets and American methods of espionage, he put the Soviet Union in the position to pass carefully selected "feed" material to this country through controlled assets;





militarymuscle69

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2007, 01:24:32 PM »
you guys don't know when to just quit a debate....people on here are very set in their beliefs...I haven't seen many instances where someone said "you know what I see what you are saying..."
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Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2007, 02:44:06 PM »
Yes I would call that bipartisan.  Hagel and McCain are leaders and if they speak out you can bet the rank and file is not far behind.

Exposing the secret identity of a covert agent during a time of war who specializes in hard to get intelligence regarding Iranian nuclear weapons development and acquisition has no effect on national security?

If that doesn't qualify, then what exactly does?

I think you need a few more Republicans to make the criticism bipartisan. 

Didn't Armitage "out" Plame before Libby? 

Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2007, 02:45:18 PM »
How do you arrive at the conclusion that there was no impact on National Security.   


Because Libby apparently wasn't the one who outed Plame. 

The Enigma

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2007, 03:01:38 PM »
Because Libby apparently wasn't the one who outed Plame. 

Cheney outed Plame...........Libby took the fall.

Straw Man

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2007, 03:33:40 PM »
Because Libby apparently wasn't the one who outed Plame. 

so you're saying that the only way that the outing of Plame and the destruction of Brewster Jennings could have any impact on National Security is if it was proven that Libby outed her.

i.e we can't prove Libby did it so therefore there is no impact on National Security????

Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2007, 03:39:14 PM »
so you're saying that the only way that the outing of Plame and the destruction of Brewster Jennings could have any impact on National Security is if it was proven that Libby outed her.

i.e we can't prove Libby did it so therefore there is no impact on National Security????

I'm saying it appears as though someone outed Plame before Libby said anything, so whether or not Libby mentioned her name after she had already been outed is pretty meaningless. 

Straw Man

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2007, 03:48:02 PM »
I'm saying it appears as though someone outed Plame before Libby said anything, so whether or not Libby mentioned her name after she had already been outed is pretty meaningless. 

Libby was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice (obstructing the investigation into the outing of Plame).

It's irrelevent to his specific case whether anyone else had also outed Plame - it doesn't change the fact that he still lied about it and still obstructed the investigation.

It's also irrelevent as to who the original source of the leak to the question of whether it impacted National Security





Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2007, 03:53:13 PM »
Libby was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice (obstructing the investigation into the outing of Plame).

It's irrelevent to his specific case whether anyone else had also outed Plame - it doesn't change the fact that he still lied about it and still obstructed the investigation.

It's also irrelevent as to who the original source of the leak to the question of whether it impacted National Security


I wasn't talking about his case, I was responding to the question re whether or not his actions impacted national security.  The person who outed Plame impacted national security.  That person apparently wasn't Libby. 

Straw Man

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2007, 04:11:08 PM »
I wasn't talking about his case, I was responding to the question re whether or not his actions impacted national security.  The person who outed Plame impacted national security.  That person apparently wasn't Libby. 

Actually - since someone did out a covert agent and since that did result in the loss of an asset (Brewster Jennings) and since Libby did obstruct the case (Fitzgeralds metaphor of throwing sand in the umpires face) the result was that the leaker is still out there and could do this (or something worse) again ....so one could easily make the argument that by obstructing the investigation he is has impacted national security.

btw - you also written a few times that this was a crime that never happened.

If that were true then Libby is the dumbest lawyer on the planet. 

Who would choose to lie about a non-crime and face jail for perjury and obstruction when one can just tell the truth and go home

The answer of course is that Libby/Cheney/Rove etc... knew full well that Plame was covert and therefore knew that revealing her was a crime.

The same could probably not be said about Armitage

Even if it weren't a crime (which it was) they certainly knew that outing her would compromise Brewster Jennings and that would harm our National Security

Bottom line - they chose a political hatchet job over the security of out country

The fact that Wilson was exposing their lies about guy makes it that much worse.   

These people are all traitors


Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2007, 04:15:38 PM »

btw - you also written a few times that this was a crime that never happened.



Right.  That's what I keep reading and hearing and no one has provided any proof that a crime was committed.  My comments about someone outing Plame assumes a crime was committed. 

Straw Man

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #118 on: June 06, 2007, 04:32:38 PM »
Right.  That's what I keep reading and hearing and no one has provided any proof that a crime was committed.  My comments about someone outing Plame assumes a crime was committed. 

it's a crime to knowingly out a covert agent

Plame was covert

Fitzgerald followed the clues all the way back to Libby who then lied and obstructed the investigation

Libby's own notes seem to be the smoking gun that points to Cheney and one would have to assume that Cheney knew that Plame was covert and if not surely knew that outing her would compromise Brewster Jennings.

Fitzgerald (presumably) realized that he was effectively at a impasse and chose to go for the only thing that he could get a conviction on.

Why would you defend people who are willing to sell out your safety and the safety of your children to cover up their own lies and crimes??

That's the only part that I don't get


Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #119 on: June 06, 2007, 04:39:55 PM »
it's a crime to knowingly out a covert agent

Plame was covert

Fitzgerald followed the clues all the way back to Libby who then lied and obstructed the investigation

Libby's own notes seem to be the smoking gun that points to Cheney and one would have to assume that Cheney knew that Plame was covert and if not surely knew that outing her would compromise Brewster Jennings.

Fitzgerald (presumably) realized that he was effectively at a impasse and chose to go for the only thing that he could get a conviction on.

Why would you defend people who are willing to sell out your safety and the safety of your children to cover up their own lies and crimes??

That's the only part that I don't get



I've already stated my views on Libby in this thread.  I think this horse is just about dead.   

I think militarymuscle was right.   :)

Decker

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2007, 06:57:10 AM »
Right.  That's what I keep reading and hearing and no one has provided any proof that a crime was committed.  My comments about someone outing Plame assumes a crime was committed. 
Of course a crime was committed.

The Crime:  exposing the identity of a covert agent specializing in Iranian acquisition of WMDs which consequently destroyed years of spy work and a CIA cover business--Brewster-Jennings.  All of that during a time of war predicated largely on WMDs.

It is manifestly evident that a crime was committed.  To claim otherwise is to not look at the plain facts

Libby hurt the investigation for finding the perpetrator of the crime and, for whatever reason, took the fall for whomever did the deed.  Even the jury admitted that one.

Juror: Libby is guilty, but he was fall guy http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/06/libby.juror/index.html

Don't you see that's exactly how the US mafia used to operate?  Lower guys in the pecking order would take the fall for the more important guys orchestrating the crime.

If the US adopted your 'head in the sand' approach, here's what would happen:

Material witnesses could lie about an investigation and not worry about consequences.  Our entire legal infrastructure would crumble.

That is horrible policy.

Decker

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #121 on: June 07, 2007, 07:04:29 AM »
As for Armitage outing Plame (taking the fall), "Armitage acknowledged that he had passed along to Novak information contained in a classified State Department memo: that Wilson's wife worked on weapons-of-mass-destruction issues at the CIA. (The memo made no reference to her undercover status.)

Fitzgerald found no evidence that Armitage knew of Plame's covert CIA status when he talked to Novak and Woodward.

This very clearly explains that Armitage only had the information included in the INR memo. That, in turn, shows he didn't leak Plame's covert identity and he didn't leak Plame's maiden name. Now, Novak claims to have learned those details through a kind of immaculate knowledge. But Novak's claims, like Libby's, are suspect." 
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2006/09/why_armitage_do.html

Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #122 on: June 07, 2007, 10:00:20 AM »
Of course a crime was committed.

The Crime:  exposing the identity of a covert agent specializing in Iranian acquisition of WMDs which consequently destroyed years of spy work and a CIA cover business--Brewster-Jennings.  All of that during a time of war predicated largely on WMDs.

It is manifestly evident that a crime was committed.  To claim otherwise is to not look at the plain facts

Libby hurt the investigation for finding the perpetrator of the crime and, for whatever reason, took the fall for whomever did the deed.  Even the jury admitted that one.

Juror: Libby is guilty, but he was fall guy http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/06/libby.juror/index.html

Don't you see that's exactly how the US mafia used to operate?  Lower guys in the pecking order would take the fall for the more important guys orchestrating the crime.

If the US adopted your 'head in the sand' approach, here's what would happen:

Material witnesses could lie about an investigation and not worry about consequences.  Our entire legal infrastructure would crumble.

That is horrible policy.

You are conclusively stating a crime was committed, but have no idea who committed this "crime."  That's my problem with the Libby prosecution.  The Libby prosecution wasn't about vindicating some social policy.  It was about crucifying a guy because they couldn't get the alleged big fish.     

Decker

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #123 on: June 07, 2007, 10:06:51 AM »
You are conclusively stating a crime was committed, but have no idea who committed this "crime."  That's my problem with the Libby prosecution.  The Libby prosecution wasn't about vindicating some social policy.  It was about crucifying a guy because they couldn't get the alleged big fish.     

Somebody in the administration committed a crime but thanks to Libby we may never know who dun it.

We have a body--the exposed covert agent and all the fallout from it--destroyed CIA front, compromised intelligence relations.

If we have a body, there must be a killer.  Libby and his lies and obstruction just bought time for the killer to flee.

They crucified Libby b/c he was protecting the "big fish" orchestrating the crime by lying/obstructing.

Dos Equis

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Re: Libby sentenced to 30 months in prison
« Reply #124 on: June 07, 2007, 10:15:22 AM »
Somebody in the administration committed a crime but thanks to Libby we may never know who dun it.

We have a body--the exposed covert agent and all the fallout from it--destroyed CIA front, compromised intelligence relations.

If we have a body, there must be a killer.  Libby and his lies and obstruction just bought time for the killer to flee.

They crucified Libby b/c he was protecting the "big fish" orchestrating the crime by lying/obstructing.

So the only reason they don't know who allegedly outed a covert agent is because Libby lied?  I don't believe that.  They simply don't have the evidence.  In any event, it will all be over in about a year-and-a-half.   :)