Author Topic: When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?.  (Read 11334 times)

CF

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Are you natural?

No.  How about yourself?

Carlo

timfogarty

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The athletes are polygraphed before the show.  Those who do not pass, do not compete, they are automatically disqualified... This happens every year, that is why you don't hear of someone "failing."  They usually don't make it to the stage because they've failed the initial polygraph.  After the show, all weight class winners drop their trophies and are escorted to a polygraph testing room, retested and give a urine sample under superivision.

anyone can pass a polygraph test.  and it takes weeks to get back the results of a urine test.   But no one in Team U has been DQed for failing a urine test.   Not to mention that urine tests are easy to get around as well.   Now, with that pro card going to the winner of Team U, there is even more incentive to ignore the drug free rules.

the only way you can have truly drug free bodybuilding is year round random drug tests.  but at $200 a sample, no one is going to pay for that.

Your initial premise, that Americans don't do well at the IFBB Worlds because we're honest and the rest of the world are cheats, just isn't believable.  Americans don't do well at the Worlds because our top athletes are more interested in getting a pro card.   Yes to compete at the worlds, you have to give lip service to the drug free requirements.  But our top athletes aren't even willing to do that.  Even though steroids are illegal in the US while legal in most of the rest of the world, our top athletes take massive amounts just for a chance at that pro card.   The top bodybuilders in many Asian countries have no real interest in turning pro because they already make more as an amateur, through government subsides, etc, than they could ever make as a pro.

CF

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anyone can pass a polygraph test.  and it takes weeks to get back the results of a urine test.   But no one in Team U has been DQed for failing a urine test.   Not to mention that urine tests are easy to get around as well.   Now, with that pro card going to the winner of Team U, there is even more incentive to ignore the drug free rules.

the only way you can have truly drug free bodybuilding is year round random drug tests.  but at $200 a sample, no one is going to pay for that.

Your initial premise, that Americans don't do well at the IFBB Worlds because we're honest and the rest of the world are cheats, just isn't believable.  Americans don't do well at the Worlds because our top athletes are more interested in getting a pro card.   Yes to compete at the worlds, you have to give lip service to the drug free requirements.  But our top athletes aren't even willing to do that.  Even though steroids are illegal in the US while legal in most of the rest of the world, our top athletes take massive amounts just for a chance at that pro card.   The top bodybuilders in many Asian countries have no real interest in turning pro because they already make more as an amateur, through government subsides, etc, than they could ever make as a pro.

That was very well said.....

 I can tell you that in the past 4 years, I know that at least 10 of the class winners are totally natural.  I don't know all of them, but some of them, I won't mention names, but I do assure you that some of our athletes are in fact clean.  You can believe it or not...   Why would I protect someone else?

Stay well,

Carlo

timfogarty

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I can tell you that in the past 4 years, I know that at least 10 of the class winners are totally natural.  I don't know all of them, but some of them, I won't mention names, but I do assure you that some of our athletes are in fact clean.  You can believe it or not...   Why would I protect someone else?

It is fine to say that some are natural.  I'm sure some are.   But you said TU and the NPC take drug testing very seriously and therefore every class winner of TU is drug free.  That is simply not believable.

CF

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It is fine to say that some are natural.  I'm sure some are.   But you said TU and the NPC take drug testing very seriously and therefore every class winner of TU is drug free.  That is simply not believable.

I guess i'll put it this way then, the npc and tu MAY take the drug testing "more serious" than our counterparts overseas. Which, that being said, may be the reason our athletes do not place better.   I don't remember where I stated that I believed "every" class winner is drug free, but I still believe "most" at Team U. are drug free.  I don't believe that that makes me delusional.....


Carlo :)

musclecenter

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anyone can pass a polygraph test.  and it takes weeks to get back the results of a urine test.   But no one in Team U has been DQed for failing a urine test.   Not to mention that urine tests are easy to get around as well.   Now, with that pro card going to the winner of Team U, there is even more incentive to ignore the drug free rules.

the only way you can have truly drug free bodybuilding is year round random drug tests.  but at $200 a sample, no one is going to pay for that.

Your initial premise, that Americans don't do well at the IFBB Worlds because we're honest and the rest of the world are cheats, just isn't believable.  Americans don't do well at the Worlds because our top athletes are more interested in getting a pro card.   Yes to compete at the worlds, you have to give lip service to the drug free requirements.  But our top athletes aren't even willing to do that.  Even though steroids are illegal in the US while legal in most of the rest of the world, our top athletes take massive amounts just for a chance at that pro card.   The top bodybuilders in many Asian countries have no real interest in turning pro because they already make more as an amateur, through government subsides, etc, than they could ever make as a pro.

Agree !
I am here very serious about bodybuilding issues (no trolling or jerk)
Maybe I find one of my gym's member(American) to post my opinions

musclecenter

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I am Dan, an American here in Taiwan. I am here w my good friend, the former Mr. Taiwan.

First of all, there is no need to curse and use profanity towards our Taiwanese friends.

Secondly, my friend here is merely trying to explain that the world champion competition would be a lot more exciting and more challenging if Americans Top bodybuilders would enter the competition (similar to the World Cup and Olympics). 

He has explained to me that during the early 80s when he was competing, Americans were very formidable. Now the rest of world has lost a lot of respect for American bodybuilders in World Championships as they often fall in very low placements.  What can Americans do to regain their reputation on the world stage?



njflex

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Carlo,has been around jersey bbing seen long time and a good bber himself.he has probably trained with plenty of clean and non naturals .he at least has respect for both .if he believes it can be done legit and competitiors are on the same level than that's it.in any sport u will have your cheaters .it's the  unnaturals that say their clean that make you go mmmmm....

TooPowerful4u

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I just want to add...... i know of 3 people who i know for 11100000% fact juiced up for the team U and knew how to beat the test (one of them even got shit from my buddie).  I watched them compete on stage before my very eyes.  SO um..... everyone in Team U natural?  TOTAL BS

mwbbuilder

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Carlo...you are so right. Unfortunately, you are the one of the very, very few who has gotten close enough to see the difference. Big mouthed, so-called experts like timmfogarty--who know nothing expect for what they see from their homo-sexed perspective--do all the talking.

MCWAY

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And our athletes are so honest that no one has ever failed those urine and polygraph tests!  No one has ever been DQed from Team Universe!    No one has ever been caught cheating, even with a pro card on the line.

(translation:  no one believes Team Universe winners are 3 years drug free as the rules require.  no one believes that Manion and those in the NPC give anything more than lip service to the drug free rules.)

the title "Mr" is generally reserved for the overall winner, Carlo


I thought the TU competitors only had to be drug-free for one year.

I just want to add...... i know of 3 people who i know for 11100000% fact juiced up for the team U and knew how to beat the test (one of them even got shit from my buddie).  I watched them compete on stage before my very eyes.  SO um..... everyone in Team U natural?  TOTAL BS

Names would be nice.


TooPowerful4u

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I thought the TU competitors only had to be drug-free for one year.

Names would be nice.



Names WOULD be nice, but first off im not a rat, second off i either know them or they are friends of friends.  How dick would that be of me to call them out, especially when they probably plan to compete there in the future.  I dont condone it, as i myself compete in non tested shows, but i will not out a person i know.... sorry         lets just say 2 of them have placed top 4 in the past 2 TU's

MCWAY

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If they're bigger, harder, more ripped than the pros of the 1970s and 1980, who were all juiced to the gills, then yes it is unlikely that the winners of Team U are natural.

1) By and large, The TU guys don't look bigger than pros from the 70s and 80s to me.

2) The TU guys being harder isn't necessarily an indicator of drug use. Remember that in the old days, bodybuilders used to get marked down for appearing too ripped at a contest. From what I've read, that happened to Franco Columbu and Vince Gironda.

I am Dan, an American here in Taiwan. I am here w my good friend, the former Mr. Taiwan.

First of all, there is no need to curse and use profanity towards our Taiwanese friends.

Secondly, my friend here is merely trying to explain that the world champion competition would be a lot more exciting and more challenging if Americans Top bodybuilders would enter the competition (similar to the World Cup and Olympics). 

He has explained to me that during the early 80s when he was competing, Americans were very formidable. Now the rest of world has lost a lot of respect for American bodybuilders in World Championships as they often fall in very low placements.  What can Americans do to regain their reputation on the world stage?


Your friend forgot to explain a few things.

1) In the 80s, the class winners of the NPC Nationals represented the USA at the Universe. That's why they were so formidable. If I recall correctly, guys like Lee Haney, Bob Paris, and Gary Strydom were among the names of NPC National champs who went on to win their classes (if not the overall) at the Universe.

2) When the IFBB introduced drug-testing at the Universe in 1990, the NPC Nationals did the same. That was, however, the only time the Nationals was tested. Coincidentally (or not), the last time the NPC Nationals winners sent a team to the Univese was 1990, headed by overall champion, Alq Gurley (who, I think, won his class there).

3) In 1991, no official testing was done to field a Universe team. However, the NPC asked if anyone was interested in going to the Universe. Those who volunteered were drug-tested. Many of you know that, among the heavyweights, the highest placing guy who volunteered to go and pass the drug-test was Ronnie Coleman. He won his class at the World Championships, earned a pro card, and qualified for the 1992 Olympia.

By and large, the NPC Nationals class winners don't care about going to the World Amateur Championships/Universe, because they already have their pro cards and don't want to submit to any drug screening.

The Team Universe was created to solve that problem, thus making a desginated team to go to the World Championships. As I stated before, the TU became a pro qualifier itself, when the Universe kept being held in countries where the NPC felt there'd be a security risk to the American team.


MCWAY

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Names WOULD be nice, but first off im not a rat, second off i either know them or they are friends of friends.  How dick would that be of me to call them out, especially when they probably plan to compete there in the future.  I dont condone it, as i myself compete in non tested shows, but i will not out a person i know.... sorry         lets just say 2 of them have placed top 4 in the past 2 TU's

I said that, because I find it strange that some folks here have no problem claiming that they (or someone they know) have either sold anabolics to (or seen them used by) one Skip LaCour.

Therefore, I don't see why your alleged acquaintance are off limits.

CF

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1) By and large, The TU guys don't look bigger than pros from the 70s and 80s to me.

2) The TU guys being harder isn't necessarily an indicator of drug use. Remember that in the old days, bodybuilders used to get marked down for appearing too ripped at a contest. From what I've read, that happened to Franco Columbu and Vince Gironda.

Your friend forgot to explain a few things.

1) In the 80s, the class winners of the NPC Nationals represented the USA at the Universe. That's why they were so formidable. If I recall correctly, guys like Lee Haney, Bob Paris, and Gary Strydom were among the names of NPC National champs who went on to win their classes (if not the overall) at the Universe.

2) When the IFBB introduced drug-testing at the Universe in 1990, the NPC Nationals did the same. That was, however, the only time the Nationals was tested. Coincidentally (or not), the last time the NPC Nationals winners sent a team to the Univese was 1990, headed by overall champion, Alq Gurley (who, I think, won his class there).

3) In 1991, no official testing was done to field a Universe team. However, the NPC asked if anyone was interested in going to the Universe. Those who volunteered were drug-tested. Many of you know that, among the heavyweights, the highest placing guy who volunteered to go and pass the drug-test was Ronnie Coleman. He won his class at the World Championships, earned a pro card, and qualified for the 1992 Olympia.

By and large, the NPC Nationals class winners don't care about going to the World Amateur Championships/Universe, because they already have their pro cards and don't want to submit to any drug screening.

The Team Universe was created to solve that problem, thus making a desginated team to go to the World Championships. As I stated before, the TU became a pro qualifier itself, when the Universe kept being held in countries where the NPC felt there'd be a security risk to the American team.



Great points.  I'm glad you pointed them out.  Am I the only one that thought "musclecenter" was a bit sarcastic with his questioning of the americans placings?

Carlo

musclecenter

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Great points.  I'm glad you pointed them out.  Am I the only one that thought "musclecenter" was a bit sarcastic with his questioning of the americans placings?

Carlo
Sorry guys,
I admit my comment was a little bit sarcastic, but ultimately I hope Americans do regain their reputation on the world Championships.

CF

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Sorry guys,
I admit my comment was a little bit sarcastic, but ultimately I hope Americans do regain their reputation on the world Championships.

I appreciate your acknowledgement, however, bear in mind, Americans already are the most highly regarded bodybuilders in the world on a Professional level.  I am sure most people will agree with that.

Carlo


timfogarty

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I appreciate your acknowledgement, however, bear in mind, Americans already are the most highly regarded bodybuilders in the world on a Professional level.  I am sure most people will agree with that.

here is the list of people currently qualified for the 2007 Olympia, as listed on the IFBB website.   Considering the number of pro cards given to Americans compared to the rest of the world, and that almost all pro contests are held here, I think the non-Americans are holding their own.

Eddie Abbew (United Kingdom)
Melvin Anthony (USA)
Gustavo Badell (Puerto Rico)
Darrem Charles (Trinidad)
Ronnie Coleman (USA)
Jay Cutler (USA)
Mark Dugdale (USA)
Toney Freeman (USA)
Kai Greene (USA)
Marcus Haley (USA)
Phil Heath (USA)
Dexter Jackson (USA)
Dennis James (Germany)
Victor Martinez (Dominican Republic)
Desmond Miller (USA)
Ronnie Rockel (Germany)
Markus Ruhl (Germany)
Silvio Samuel (Spain)
Sergey Shelestov (Russia)
Vince Taylor (USA)
Branch Warren (USA)
Dennis Wolf (Germany)
Hidetada Yamagishi (Japan)

Now I'm not sure I agree with all the countries.  Victor grew up in Washington Heights, Dennis James is a US citizen by birth, Silvio was born in Brazil, and Badell was born in Venezuela.

musclecenter

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Re: When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?.
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2007, 01:14:28 AM »
I have changed this thread's name

CQ

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here is the list of people currently qualified for the 2007 Olympia, as listed on the IFBB website.  Considering the number of pro cards given to Americans compared to the rest of the world, and that almost all pro contests are held here, I think the non-Americans are holding their own.

Eddie Abbew (United Kingdom)
Melvin Anthony (USA)
Gustavo Badell (Puerto Rico)
Darrem Charles (Trinidad)
Ronnie Coleman (USA)
Jay Cutler (USA)
Mark Dugdale (USA)
Toney Freeman (USA)
Kai Greene (USA)
Marcus Haley (USA)
Phil Heath (USA)
Dexter Jackson (USA)
Dennis James (Germany)
Victor Martinez (Dominican Republic)
Desmond Miller (USA)
Ronnie Rockel (Germany)
Markus Ruhl (Germany)
Silvio Samuel (Spain)
Sergey Shelestov (Russia)
Vince Taylor (USA)
Branch Warren (USA)
Dennis Wolf (Germany)
Hidetada Yamagishi (Japan)

Now I'm not sure I agree with all the countries.  Victor grew up in Washington Heights, Dennis James is a US citizen by birth, Silvio was born in Brazil, and Badell was born in Venezuela.

Agreed Tim.

A far as the drug testing, I don't know if my country goes mad with it or something, but we are tested pretty stringently. Urine tests for all winners plus random competitors at National level, we are subject to random testing [24 hrs notice only] throughout the year etc. To even enter the pro-q for our region you must show evidence of passing a drug test, and class winners are taken immediately off stage to be restested right after the show. You fail the test, you loose your placing and receive a ban. In my nation [not the entire region] a failed drug test means you are banned from all sporting events...you can't enter a road race/tennis match etc either. It's pretty serious where I am. I am not suggesting that everyone onstage is 100% natural [lol] but I would honestly say the majority are in my nation, and even within the region I would say a lower percentage are, but still the majority.

Of course for us it is different. I mean how many people at Team U are 'really' natural? For me, I don't have any qualms about competing natty as most the people I am up againest are.

Not exactly what I meant.  What I implied was that it is more acceptable to lie and deny in the foreign countries,

 ::)


CQ,

That's where you misunderstand. Europe doesn't decide who is good enough to turn pro in Holland. Holland does. And Mercedes defenitally lives up to that. She didn't have to have a certain placing at the European shows, just being invited for two international competitions is all that was needed. Why the other gals didn't turn pro, maybe they didn't go for it or the rules of their country might be different. Anyways. Ya better recognize! Her country did.

No man, I do understand the dynamics of how one can go pro, I've been in this game for well over a decade.....I just don't agree with it. Like I said, it is undeniable to state that over 200 competitors placed better than her that season. I just don't feel we should let nations decide at their own whim. With the 150 odd nations if they all decide to just make anyone pro they feel like, we would end up with thousands of pros a year. Bottom line here, someone who did not ever win their nationals and placed dead last in an amateur international competition........went pro. If one looks at it objectively, not as a fan or friend [as you appear to be] that is not a fair system. Last place goes pro, but #1,2,3,4 etc does not? I just feel it should be fair for all people competing worldwide. Again, no offence meant to you or her, just speaking on the politics.

MikeThaMachine

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Re: When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?.
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2007, 02:33:13 AM »
Michael Lockett (2007 Junior Nationals overallwinner) was the overall winner of US Team Universe 2006, too, but he only placed 12th in the 2006 Super Heavyweight World Championships in the Czech Republic .
How could he earn a Pro Card last year ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

discuss


When do you think a Japanese BBer will ever become Mr. O let alone win a third tier professional show. ::) ::)
I

musclecenter

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Re: When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?.
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2007, 02:53:31 AM »

When do you think a Japanese BBer will ever become Mr. O let alone a third tier professional show. ::) ::)
You mean Hidetada Yamagishi ?
I think that his possible highest placement in 2007 Olympia is 10th or 12th...16th...only ;D ;D

MikeThaMachine

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Re: When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?.
« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2007, 03:11:35 AM »
You mean Hidetada Yamagishi ?
I think that his possible highest placement in 2007 Olympia is 10th or 12th...16th...only ;D ;D


I don't see him placing unless he nails his conditioning and some others come in looking bad.
I

MCWAY

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here is the list of people currently qualified for the 2007 Olympia, as listed on the IFBB website.   Considering the number of pro cards given to Americans compared to the rest of the world, and that almost all pro contests are held here, I think the non-Americans are holding their own.

Eddie Abbew (United Kingdom)
Melvin Anthony (USA)
Gustavo Badell (Puerto Rico)
Darrem Charles (Trinidad)
Ronnie Coleman (USA)
Jay Cutler (USA)
Mark Dugdale (USA)
Toney Freeman (USA)
Kai Greene (USA)
Marcus Haley (USA)
Phil Heath (USA)
Dexter Jackson (USA)
Dennis James (Germany)
Victor Martinez (Dominican Republic)
Desmond Miller (USA)
Ronnie Rockel (Germany)
Markus Ruhl (Germany)
Silvio Samuel (Spain)
Sergey Shelestov (Russia)
Vince Taylor (USA)
Branch Warren (USA)
Dennis Wolf (Germany)
Hidetada Yamagishi (Japan)

Now I'm not sure I agree with all the countries.  Victor grew up in Washington Heights, Dennis James is a US citizen by birth, Silvio was born in Brazil, and Badell was born in Venezuela.

Not to mention, Darrem Charles has lived in Florida for years; so it's likely that he is a U.S. citizen.

christinafitness

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Re: When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?.
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2007, 05:07:53 AM »
There is another simple reason:
The IFBB is controlled by its president Raphael Santonja, who is from Spain.
The IFBB Pro Leage is controlled by Jim Manion. He never really travels abroad.