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Author Topic: Pro-Hormones - Information and Questions  (Read 27240 times)
Princess L
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« on: July 02, 2007, 01:46:54 PM »

Several questions come up weekly on the subject.  Following is the general consensus from those who have been at the game for a respectable amount of time (thank you Arnold jr  Wink).  Further questions on the subject would yield the same response, so save yourself the $$$, the flamewar and your health.  Future posts regarding pro-hormones or pro-steriods may be deleted at moderator discresion.

If you would care to add to this thread, PM one of the Mods with your post for review.


Pro-hormones, are not steroids, they are however in many cases steroid derivatives. Pro-hormones are a “supplement” at best, but even so, they are not a supplement worth taking…the risk factor far out weighs the positive aspects. Many people prefer to opt for these items because first off, many of these pro-hormones were legal at one time and some still are. But one should be very careful in basing the safety aspect of these things based on legality. The legality of something does not always mean an item is safe or otherwise. Take for instance “real” testosterone, many will argue with sound proof that this is a safe thing to use, although it is illegal without a prescription. However, take something such as cigarettes, no sain individual would claim these are safe at any level, yet they remain perfectly legal….see my point.

So how are pro-hormones often sold legally, even if it is only a short lived time? Like said, these items are often derivatives of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids. The only difference is that their chemical structure has been slightly altered to make them legal. It may in fact be a very slight alteration, usually is, but it is this very change that makes them dangerous. Many of them are very similar to Methandrostenolone, AKA dbol, but there is a right way to make dbol and there's a wrong way.

With these chemical alterations, more often then not, the toxicity level goes up 10 fold. Like with any oral steroid, (real ones) such as dbol, oral winny, anavar, halotestin, etc. there is a level of toxicity involved in taking these items…particularly in regards to the liver…the drug used however often determines this level. In the case of pro-hormones, again because of the chemical alterations made to these drugs in order for them to be sold at your local GNC, the toxicity goes up tremendously. Many people who use these items for a period report severe increases in their liver enzymes, as well as other side effects such as rashes, high blood pressure, headaches and distorted levels of their own natural testosterone production. Even with the aid or “legal” Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) Meds, the effects are often very hard to deal with. Why? Because 1st off the toxicity is so high. 2nd, these legal PCT products are not strong enough to combat these effects. After time has passed, these side effects will in most cases diminish, assuming pro-hormone use is discontinued, but not without the fact that one has caused a large amount of unreasonable stress to their body.

If you are considering pro-hormone use, you should really take time to weigh these risk adequately. Many would argue, myself included, that if you’re willing to use pro-hormones, you should be willing to use “real” AAS. Although real AAS is not legal without a prescription, the risks of negative side effects from them are still far less then with the use of pro-hormones. This is not said to encourage anyone to use AAS, that’s a choice that has to be made by each individual on his or her own. But one should always weigh the items they are thinking about using and determine what is right for them based on sound research and their own educational study. No one should ever simply take someone’s word on various supplements, be it AAS, pro-hormones or anything else you can think of…hey, you shouldn’t even take my word on these pro-hormones as the absolute truth. But the info provided above should be something that causes you to delve into your own research and study of these items to find out for yourself.
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The Jackel
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 07:37:50 AM »

Well said Princess L, I agree with what you said 100%



Thank you Arnold jr
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2007, 06:22:46 PM »

If you are considering pro-hormone use, you should really take time to weigh these risk adequately.

In the past years several prohormones have been marketed by well known persons like Patrick Arnold, Brock Strasser alias Bruce Kneller, Derek Cornelius, Bill Roberts and Bill Llewellyn. These compounds have become famous in bodybuilder and fitness circles. Some of these prohormones have become a success, some proved to be a disaster for the users.

It is clear that from a chemical point of view there are many possibilities for new prohormones. It is not a surprise that regularly new prohormones, often advertised as a designer supplement, appear on the market. Producers advertise the new prohormone as legal and they assume that the necessary enzymatic transformations into the real anabolic steroid will take place. They seldom really prove this. The possible activity and the side effects of the prohormone itself mostly never have been investigated. Only scientific research can establish this. Producers simply bring the prohormone on the market.

The user is the guinea pig.

http://www.ergogenics.org/anabolenboek/index15en.html

As the post above says I think anyone who is thinking of using prohormones really needs to inform themselves first.  Many of the supplement companies
who sell these products are really taking advantage of the general publics lack of knowldege.  Some of these ads make some pretty outrageous claims
and dont have the research to back it up. In my opinion the risks clearly outweigh the benefits. If you are going to use one of these products you should take some time and search out some unbiased opinions and reviews.

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Princess L
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 01:43:39 PM »

i had some blood work done after finishing a 30 day cycle of maxodrol and my test level was at 43 realy low as well as my dhea levels.  im going to an endrocrinologist and he is having me use testrone cream 100mg a day. are there any natural suplimemts that will help my body retain test and is there any supliments that will help my body start producing the proper levels of test i need something that realy works



So you basically used an untested steroid for thirty days & your test levels are low. What the hell did you think would happen? Anything like that will suppress natural test production - which you did. Anyone who uses steroids suppresses themselves which is why when coming off they take things like Nolvadex & Clomid. Do you think of doing some sort of Post Cycle Therapy? Now you're getting HRT (with the Test cream) - well guess what? That'll suppress you to - you're just continuing the cycle. What you really need is time. The body has the ability to bounce back but you need to give it time. Like powerpack said try some Nolvadex or some other OTC Test support.

When are you guys going to learn that these untested compounds can & are dangerous? They will suppress natural test levels & are often very hard on the liver (especially the methyl compounds).

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Princess L
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2007, 10:29:07 AM »

The top of this thread states:  "If you would care to add to this thread, PM one of the Mods with your post for review".  Apparently, there are some out there who believe they are much more knowledgeable in this arena because I received this email.


The reporter has made the following comment:
To much misimformation on the sticky....PERSON WHO MADE THE STICKY DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT..




Correct.  I don't have much of a clue about pro-hormones, however, there are many here who do and they have shared their knowledge as part of this sticky.

If the email author would care to share his wealth of knowledge with the the Getbig community, I'd be happy to post it within this thread  Wink


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Princess L
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2007, 11:59:53 AM »

Quote
The only problem with the article you wrote was the lack of objectivity and lumping all of all "legal" items into a category..


There were several Pro Hormones that worked very well with little toxicity..Also they were more potent than there illegal steroid counterparts...


In Essence you make a Claim that "Pro-Hormones" Produce stronger side effects than Hard Illegal Oral anabolic steroids..However, you are also claim that the whole class of prohormones produce zero anabolic action at all..

I will post your thoughts within the thread and moderate the responses (which need to be PM'd to me or another Mod).  The information is not coming directly from ME, but from those with  extensive knowledge and experience.

I trust you can understand why the thread is stickied and locked.

I don't believe anyone is trying to imply that PH's do not produce an anabolic response, many do.  HOWEVER, it is my belief that many guys are looking for an alternative to "the dark side" and mistakenly see PH's as a safer route.  I think we are all trying to point out that just because it's 'legal", maybe cheaper, easier to get... whatever... it's not any safer and in many cases, more dangerous...

Do I have your permission to reveal your Getbig name?
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Princess L
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2007, 06:44:07 PM »

here's my reply to it and you can post my name, I don't care.


We're talking about Pro-hormones, we're not talking about 1 or 2 in particular, but Pro-hormones in general. How many categories should there be when you're talking about 1 thing? How about 1?

Absolute bullshit...I'm sorry but you are talking out of your ass on this one. Think whatever you want, but the statement above, you simply made that up. I challenge you to show me 1 iota of proof that "they were more potent than there illegal steroid counterparts..." If you can do that, and in so I can't provide numerous reasons to why that is wrong, I will bow down and call you king.

In most cases side effects are stronger...I'm sure there are exceptions, as was noted in the article with the words "more often then not"...see that leaves room for the alternative, very little but it is there.
Last off, no where in that article is there a claim that "that the whole class of prohormones produce zero anabolic action at all.." Why do you seem so hell bent on making things up? Anyone can see for themselves from reading the article that this was never implied.
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w_llewellyn
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2008, 07:48:38 AM »

Guys,

Just wanted to put in a small bit of constructive criticism, as indeed this is a key site with many important participants. I think this forum needs a new sticky explaining very clearly

PROHORMONES = DESIGNER STEROIDS = REAL ANABOLIC/ANDROGENIC STEROIDS = SAME RISKS AND SIDE EFFECTS OF PRESCRIPTION STEROIDS

There seems to be a lot of confusion here on this one topic. Many people are assuming these are lesser compounds simply because they are being sold openly (mind you in violation of federal law). This can be a dangerous assumption, as many will think these drugs are safer/weaker/natural.. None of which are true.

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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2008, 07:56:59 AM »

I think a lot of people realize this. I for one, am willing to use the legal stuff. I am, however, a 39 year old indep trainer (14 years exp, published etc) and a gym owner, so the way I might use a compound is likely different than a lot of younger guys with the "I'm immortal" attitude. I agree there should be more "upfrontness"  so to speak from these companies, but I think people know what is going on here for the most part.
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littleguns
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2008, 07:59:57 AM »

I tend to agree. Most of the non-informed people are going into Stores and asking for MRP's Protein and Creatine

It's only the educated (in most part) that are asking for Pro Hormones
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w_llewellyn
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2008, 08:31:00 AM »

I tend to agree. Most of the non-informed people are going into Stores and asking for MRP's Protein and Creatine

It's only the educated (in most part) that are asking for Pro Hormones

I read the sticky very fast at first. I re-read it, and it does touch on some important points.. I initially read it as saying prohormones are not steroids.. I do see it is in there.

I have to learn to slow myself down sometimes.. Trying to do too many things too fast.. Though a really good FAQ isnt a bad idea given the common Q's that come up..




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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2008, 11:34:45 AM »

Guys,

Just wanted to put in a small bit of constructive criticism, as indeed this is a key site with many important participants. I think this forum needs a new sticky explaining very clearly

PROHORMONES = DESIGNER STEROIDS = REAL ANABOLIC/ANDROGENIC STEROIDS = SAME RISKS AND SIDE EFFECTS OF PRESCRIPTION STEROIDS

There seems to be a lot of confusion here on this one topic. Many people are assuming these are lesser compounds simply because they are being sold openly (mind you in violation of federal law). This can be a dangerous assumption, as many will think these drugs are safer/weaker/natural.. None of which are true.



I agree with most of what you are saying. I think a lot of users under estimate their potency and fail to follow proper protocol with PCT, supporting supps, etc.

However, wouldn't you agree that some of the "designer steroid" products are underdosed or not putting in the actual ingredient they claim on the label or could contain contaminants because of the facility they are manufactured in? Some of these fly by night companies are turning out products that are sketchy at best.

What about toxicity compared to real, human grade AAS?

There has to be a reason that some of these compounds never made it as real AAS.

And lets take my situation for example. Used the whole Anabolic Xtreme line starting with Phera-Plex, then Superdrol, then Prostanzonal for a total of 8 weeks. Also took Red Yeast Rice, Hawthorn Berry during, followed proper PCT and my system still crashed (test @ 100  Cry) along with liver enzymes thru the roof.

Sorry, will forever use real AAS under my doctor supervision rather than trust my health to a fly by night "designer steroid" company. Been there, done that.  Undecided

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w_llewellyn
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2008, 12:37:28 PM »

What about toxicity compared to real, human grade AAS?

There has to be a reason that some of these compounds never made it as real AAS.

And lets take my situation for example. Used the whole Anabolic Xtreme line starting with Phera-Plex, then Superdrol, then Prostanzonal for a total of 8 weeks. Also took Red Yeast Rice, Hawthorn Berry during, followed proper PCT and my system still crashed (test @ 100  Cry) along with liver enzymes thru the roof.

Sorry, will forever use real AAS under my doctor supervision rather than trust my health to a fly by night "designer steroid" company. Been there, done that.  Undecided

I think the real reason we haven't seen superdrol, phera, etc. etc. as prescription drugs probably lies largely in finances. As a class of drugs, these all (to some extent) shave value in the same therapeutic areas. So they could have been further studied and likely developed into therapeutic drugs. But you can't develop 1,000 drugs for the same select few purposes. You would go bankrupt. You pick the most logistically, medically, and financially viable compounds and ignore the rest. So you can't assume just because it wasn't developed into one that it is inferior.

I must correct myself. Superdrol itself was never sold, but a double molecule of superdrol (with an azine bridge, metabolically broken to yield free superdrol) was at one time sold in Europe as a prescription drug. It saw little clinical use though, and disappeared quickly. Never was adopted or even studied on humans in the U.S.

If you are using AAS under the supervision of a doctor, YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING. While I would call myself somewhat of a rationalist when it comes to steroids, and generally disagree with media characterizations of steroid use as tantamount to Russian roulette, I can't say that I agree they should be widely used without doctor supervision. It is a shame we have outlawed their use for non-approved (non-medical) uses. This would solve much of the issue when it comes to drug safety.
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2008, 12:51:43 PM »

Good stuff man, thank you very much!

By the way, WELCOME! We need more minds like yours here.. Cheesy
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2008, 06:51:18 AM »

I think the real reason we haven't seen superdrol, phera, etc. etc. as prescription drugs probably lies largely in finances. As a class of drugs, these all (to some extent) shave value in the same therapeutic areas. So they could have been further studied and likely developed into therapeutic drugs. But you can't develop 1,000 drugs for the same select few purposes. You would go bankrupt. You pick the most logistically, medically, and financially viable compounds and ignore the rest. So you can't assume just because it wasn't developed into one that it is inferior.

I must correct myself. Superdrol itself was never sold, but a double molecule of superdrol (with an azine bridge, metabolically broken to yield free superdrol) was at one time sold in Europe as a prescription drug. It saw little clinical use though, and disappeared quickly. Never was adopted or even studied on humans in the U.S.

If you are using AAS under the supervision of a doctor, YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING. While I would call myself somewhat of a rationalist when it comes to steroids, and generally disagree with media characterizations of steroid use as tantamount to Russian roulette, I can't say that I agree they should be widely used without doctor supervision. It is a shame we have outlawed their use for non-approved (non-medical) uses. This would solve much of the issue when it comes to drug safety.

Totally agree.

I preach that every time i see a post about "PH".

Most of todays desigern steroids are baesd on a book from the 60s.

Julius A. Vida; Androgens and Anabolic Agents; Academic Press, 1969.


* desigster1.jpg (75.58 KB, 680x872 - viewed 11751 times.)

* desster2.jpg (49.65 KB, 668x567 - viewed 14255 times.)
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2008, 08:34:56 AM »

William, I bought about 6 bottles of Hydroxy-test Estergels from Molecular Nutrition back before the ban. I still have them in my fridge (2 years maybe?) I have some questions. Are they still viable having been refrigerated the entire time? How much test suppression would I get from a 4 week cycle of this product? Should I use an anti-aromatase with it? What is your overall opinion of this product for a 40 something looking just to make some small gains? Is PCT required?I usually don't like to take anything these days that will cause much suppression, since I don't like having lowered test levels afterward. I was wondering if there's any benefit to taking this product before a workout occasionally to have a higher circulating testosterone level during the workout? Thanks for reading.
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2008, 06:34:06 AM »

Totally agree.

I preach that every time i see a post about "PH".

Most of todays desigern steroids are baesd on a book from the 60s.

Julius A. Vida; Androgens and Anabolic Agents; Academic Press, 1969.

good post!
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2011, 11:20:24 AM »

 I just seen on another site that the remaining ph';s on the market are slowly being taken away. Someone said most are already banned but I seen on a few pages there are still a few available. My question is, Can you still purchase legally  ?  A bud gave me a coupon code " our-error "for so much off 10 percent  and I was looking at some halo but dont wanna get into trouble doing so. Ive actually ordered from the site before with no problems,  low cost vitamins -dot- net . Anyone else had any trouble ordering ph's as of late  ?
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jannet
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2012, 10:44:40 PM »

Well the possible activity and the side effects of the prohormone itself mostly never have been investigated. Only scientific research can establish this. Producers simply bring the prohormone on the market.
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 06:06:03 AM »

Well the possible activity and the side effects of the prohormone itself mostly never have been investigated. Only scientific research can establish this. Producers simply bring the prohormone on the market.

Wrong.

First, they are not "prohormones", they are steroids.

It's all in a book from the 60s, actually.
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 09:05:30 PM »

epistane SUCKS... joint killer and drops water weight, strength gains at the cost of joint health.

Now banned too as far as i'm aware.

Superdrol and halodrol though are great but also now banned.
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Gosling31977
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« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2013, 08:55:46 AM »

What about this, its supposedly a new grey market type of ph, havent tried personally but was interested.


http://www.lowcostvitamin.com/p/3225/quad-stak-by-next-generation-sports-ngs.html&filter_name=quad%20sta
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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2013, 03:10:17 AM »

What about this, its supposedly a new grey market type of ph, havent tried personally but was interested.


http://www.lowcostvitamin.com/p/3225/quad-stak-by-next-generation-sports-ngs.html&filter_name=quad%20sta


i read that you are guaranteed to lose 1-2lbs per week on that... mostly from your wallet
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« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2013, 05:49:35 AM »

I wish Boldione was still legal. Arms grew llike weeds with that stuff.
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2013, 12:23:40 PM »

I wish Boldione was still legal. Arms grew llike weeds with that stuff.


eq would be cheaper
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