Microchipping / Tattoos

[~flower~]

I don't trust microchips, it seems that their is more and more evidence that they can cause problems down the road but because my dogs are collar free except on outings they have no tags on them.    I have been thinking about getting the tattooed instead. 

  I may even in the future do tattoos myself and make some extra $$.   


 Here's some links about microchips and potential health problems:

 
http://www.thepetwhisperer.com/MicroChips.html

http://www.louisville-pets.com/microchip_cancer_study.html

http://www.freedom.org/news/200612/20/janewilliams.phtml

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/memorial7.html

http://www.aipvet.it/APIVMeetings/2003_ATTI_APIV/vascellarireprint2003.PDF

http://www.vetpathology.org/cgi/content/abstract/43/4/545


  Considering all the other things I avoid with my dogs for their health, I personally can't see putting a potentionaly cancer causing item into their bodies.


 If your pet already is micro chipped I think you could do more harm than good  in having it removed, unless it was causing a problem.  I would keep an eye on it and do periodical checks to make sure it has not migrated. 


  Would you take advantage of tattooing your dogs (and cats) if it was available to you? 

     Thoughts?  Experience?   Vet? 


  I know a lot of shelters microchip, I would like to see them switch to tattooing.

[Vet]

I would do both.... and make sure to tattoo the gum or in the groin area and ear where it cannot be surgically removed.  I started doing this when I lived in "the hood" in college and I was getting several threats on the street from people about stealing one of my dogs and working at the humane society trying to return dogs who were obviously lost and had limited ID. 

Call me an extremist, but I really think you cannot identify your pet too much.  I actually took pictures of the surgical scars on my dogs from where they had their knees rebuilt and my females spay scar because those are permanent marks that are unique to an individual animal.  I keep an up to date photo file on my computer of all of my dogs and of my birds. 


I consider microchips to be relatively benign.  I've placed them in everything from tortoises to bear to lions to horses to birds and dogs and cats and I've only seen two problems with chips I've placed.  Its very important to make sure the chip is set appropriately in the connective tissue of the region specific to where its supposed to be placed in the species that is being chipped.  In dogs and cats this is between the shoulder blades.  It is different with other species.  There have been several reports of the microchips migrating over time--sometimes to parts of the body where they cause problems, but every one of those reports that I am aware of have gone back to inappropriate placement of the chip--it didnt' set right.   I've seen way more migrations in birds than in any other species---which I think is due to the relative large size of the needle compared to the size of the pectorals of the bird (its placed in the pectoral muscles in a bird).  I've seen one actually migrate back out the skin of a bird about 6 years after it was initially placed.  I wasn't there when the chip was first put in so I cannot comment on intial placement, but I do wonder about it.  You can put the chips in with dogs and cats awake, but I usually try not too.  Its a very big needle and the discomfort of the needle stick can cause wiggling, which I think can lead to improper placement of the chip so I generally try to do them under anesthesia. 

I've seen one dog I swear had an allergic reaction to the ink in a "spay" tattoo done at the humane society.  I think that needs to be kept in mind when considering tattoos. 

I've also seen one cat which had a microchip in the middle of a fibrosarcoma we removed from its back.  I have always attributed that tumor as a vaccine associated fibrosarcoma that was particularly aggressive and grew around the microchip, not something induced by the microchip. 

[~flower~]

Thanks for sharing your firsthand experience Vet.   

  I still personally will not be micro chipping, but am looking into tattooing.  They do it on the inner thigh, stomach area.  The ear could always be cut off if someone took the dog and didn't want it identified. 

   I just called and only one place here does pet tattoos, so if I wanted to do it myself in my area I could probably make some $$. 


    I have pictures of Emmetts knee scar and Addie's foot scar so I could identify them!        I think I have looked for Bri's spay scar but didn't find it?  Must be under some hair?   Addie has an obstruction removal scar on her belly too. 

  I first might go have one dog done at the place that does them here and see if it is something I would like to do.

[knny187]

Well, our Rottie is Micro Chipped.  He developed a lump in that region which eventually went away.  It scared the hell out of us because the chip was in there for a few months...then all of a sudden it got bigger & bigger.

The Vet checked it out & said his body could be rejecting it...but eventually the lump disappeared.  The Vet scanned the area & seemed like the chip was still there.

Kind of weird actually.  It could have been from an early vaccination he received...but again...that was months prior.  We still don't know why that happened.

He does have a "freckle" or spot on his tongue.  We took a picture of it for identity as well.

[Vet]

Well, our Rottie is Micro Chipped.  He developed a lump in that region which eventually went away.  It scared the hell out of us because the chip was in there for a few months...then all of a sudden it got bigger & bigger.

The Vet checked it out & said his body could be rejecting it...but eventually the lump disappeared.  The Vet scanned the area & seemed like the chip was still there.

Kind of weird actually.  It could have been from an early vaccination he received...but again...that was months prior.  We still don't know why that happened.

He does have a "freckle" or spot on his tongue.  We took a picture of it for identity as well.

Localized infection is always a possibilty, especially considering the size of the needle and the fact that a surgical prep isn't generally done prior to placement in most species.  That local infection would cause the lump you saw.   You also should be able to palpate the chip in a lean dog. 

[~flower~]

OT, but kind of related, I can see the melatonin implant in Tino.  He is bald there so it is pretty easy.   No problems with that as far as I can tell.

[Euro-monster]

In my country tattooing a animal isn't allowed anymore so there is no other option than to microchip a animal.

I thought you guys would want to know these things...

[~flower~]

In my country tattooing a animal isn't allowed anymore so there is no other option than to microchip a animal.

I thought you guys would want to know these things...

  Do you know the reasoning behind that EM? 

[knny187]

Localized infection is always a possibilty, especially considering the size of the needle and the fact that a surgical prep isn't generally done prior to placement in most species.  That local infection would cause the lump you saw.   You also should be able to palpate the chip in a lean dog. 

Our Rottie is 1 year & 3 mo old.  He's still has a lot of skin & fur as he's still filling out & does have a thicker coat than some Rotties.

I've tried to feel for it...impossible.

The lump is now long gone.  What seemed so weird about it all...it was months after the chip was placed that this came out.  Not sure why it took months for it to develop.

[Vet]

  Do you know the reasoning behind that EM? 

I'm willing to bet its an anesthesia/humane issue.  I don't see how you could possibly tattoo a dog without general anesthesia.  And the old "pinch" type tattooers are borderline torture devices anywhere but a cows ear--and they aren't exactly nice there either. 

[Vet]

Our Rottie is 1 year & 3 mo old.  He's still has a lot of skin & fur as he's still filling out & does have a thicker coat than some Rotties.

I've tried to feel for it...impossible.

The lump is now long gone.  What seemed so weird about it all...it was months after the chip was placed that this came out.  Not sure why it took months for it to develop.

nah the time actually makes more sense.   If it was a reaction to the chip itself, why would it go away?  the body should still be reacting to the chip.  If it was a reaction to a tiny bit of dirt/contamination off the needle, then eventally the body will clear that up---and a bacterial infection like that could brew for weeks/months before it finally came out. 

[knny187]

nah the time actually makes more sense.   If it was a reaction to the chip itself, why would it go away?  the body should still be reacting to the chip.  If it was a reaction to a tiny bit of dirt/contamination off the needle, then eventally the body will clear that up---and a bacterial infection like that could brew for weeks/months before it finally came out. 

Gotchya...thanks

He seems to be good to go nowadays.....

except....

we just discovered he chewed on a baseboard for the first time   

[~flower~]

I'm willing to bet its an anesthesia/humane issue.  I don't see how you could possibly tattoo a dog without general anesthesia.  And the old "pinch" type tattooers are borderline torture devices anywhere but a cows ear--and they aren't exactly nice there either. 

  They don't use any anesthesia to do this.  She said it is pretty quick. A few numbers and done.  I couldn't do it if it required anesthesia since I am not a vet. 

 You use a tattoo marker machine, not the pinch type.

  http://www.nationaldogregistry.com/tsupplies.html


  http://www.tattoo-a-pet.com/

 

[Vet]

They don't use any anesthesia to do this.  She said it is pretty quick. A few numbers and done.  I couldn't do it if it required anesthesia since I am not a vet. 

 You use a tattoo marker machine, not the pinch type.

  http://www.nationaldogregistry.com/tsupplies.html


  http://www.tattoo-a-pet.com/

 

That looks like a human tattoo needle type machine.  You HAVE to anesthetize a dog to use one of those---think of how bad tattoos can hurt on people.  Try that with a dog and you can see how they will potentially freak out.  I'd like to see how they do it.   

[~flower~]

That looks like a human tattoo needle type machine.  You HAVE to anesthetize a dog to use one of those---think of how bad tattoos can hurt on people.  Try that with a dog and you can see how they will potentially freak out.  I'd like to see how they do it.   

The National Dog Registry Tattoo Does Not Hurt Your Pet

Pet tattoos are not like human tattoos, because there are distinct dimensional differences between the structures of human and animal skin. The epidermis, or top layer of skin, on a human is much thicker, and the lower skin layers are more uneven than the layers of canine or feline skin. The epidermis is the layer of skin that dries up and flakes off, so to tattoo effectively, the ink must be inserted just below it. On humans, the tattoo must go much deeper into the skin, because of the thickness and uneven shape of the epidermis. Canine and feline epidermis is much thinner and is very regular and even. As a result, the tattoo does not need to penetrate as deeply into the skin.

The epidermis has only tactile sense, the sense of touch that allows you to feel surface contact. There are no "pain sensors " in the upper layers of skin. Because the tattoo needle does not reach the nerve endings of a cat or dog's skin, it is highly unlikely your pet will experience serious discomfort. The only sensation your pet will feel is the vibration of the marker.

Most pets, especially dogs, are easy to tattoo. However, animals generally dislike being held still on their sides, and some also dislike the sounds the clippers and some older tattoo markers make. Some pets' tactile senses are more pronounced than others, and they react when the vibrating marker touches their skin. Remember, your pet is in unusual surroundings, around strangers, and may be nervous. These factors alone sometimes are enough to make your pet voice his or her displeasure. If you stay calm, your pet will stay calm too.

A good amount of tummy tickling helps during the process. Never scold or yell at your pet--use a calm, reassuring tone to let him or her know that you are there and that everything is OK. It is up to you! The safety provided by a registered tattoo far outweighs any momentary nervousness you or your pet might experience. At tattoo demonstrations, we often ask volunteers to touch the tattoo marker tip while it is running (without ink, of course). They are always surprised that it simply does not hurt.

[Euro-monster]

  Do you know the reasoning behind that EM? 

Well allot of tatoo's aren't very readable when the dog starts to get older.
They tend to fade somehow so you can't make up the numbers anymore.

In my country if a breeder tells the Kennelclub that he's expecting a nest they will make a notition of that and come to the breeders kennel when the puppys are 6 weeks old. The kennelclub will chip all the puppys and provide a dog pasport wich will have the chip number inside of it.
When the breeder go's to the vet for the first time he/she can use the chip machine to see if everything matches up and give the dogs a stamp in their puppy pasports. Thats it really!

[Lord Humungous]

I had O dog micro chipped since i hunt him and hes off leash a lot. My uncle tatoos his hounds himself in their ears but when the dogs get old and their ears a little tattered from running through briars and thorns for years it makes them really had to read.

[~flower~]

Well allot of tatoo's aren't very readable when the dog starts to get older.
They tend to fade somehow so you can't make up the numbers anymore.

In my country if a breeder tells the Kennelclub that he's expecting a nest they will make a notition of that and come to the breeders kennel when the puppys are 6 weeks old. The kennelclub will chip all the puppys and provide a dog pasport wich will have the chip number inside of it.
When the breeder go's to the vet for the first time he/she can use the chip machine to see if everything matches up and give the dogs a stamp in their puppy pasports. Thats it really!

  What if they are mixed breed puppies?   By law does every dog have to be micro chipped?

  I don't think that should be the government's call.  Don't tell me what I have to put in my dog.        Next they will be telling people they have to get  micro chipped. 

  Governments are more and more trying to take away a person choice to make a decision that they feel is best for themselves.    

[Euro-monster]

  What if they are mixed breed puppies?   By law does every dog have to be micro chipped?

  I don't think that should be the government's call.  Don't tell me what I have to put in my dog.        Next they will be telling people they have to get  micro chipped. 

  Governments are more and more trying to take away a person choice to make a decision that they feel is best for themselves.    

These rules do not apply to mixed breeds ofcourse because they don't get a pedigree! It is just to asure everything is in order and that the dogs are pure breds and that the numbers match up in the pedigree.
If you want to chip a mixed breed you can....just go to the vet and he will give you one.

[~flower~]

I'd tell the UKC to stick it up their asses.  To say that you HAVE to stick a micro chip that does have the possibility of causing a problem down the line, or you can't register your pure bred, is WRONG.

 I think the AKC tried this and it didn't pass.  Grow a new set of balls over there and get that reversed.  

[Euro-monster]

I'd tell the UKC to stick it up their asses.  To say that you HAVE to stick a micro chip that does have the possibility of causing a problem down the line, or you can't register your pure bred, is WRONG.

 I think the AKC tried this and it didn't pass.  Grow a new set of balls over there and get that reversed.  

Maybe it's wrong but thats just the way it is out here. So if you want to breed pure breds there's no escaping that rule!

I don't need a new set of balls...they work just fine thank you very much..

[~flower~]

Maybe it's wrong but thats just the way it is out here. So if you want to breed pure breds there's no escaping that rule!

I don't need a new set of balls...they work just fine thank you very much..

 You work to CHANGE the rule.  The AKC tried to make that rule and they were told to piss off.   

  You need to grow a new set because they were cut off when you allowed this to happen.   

[Euro-monster]

 You work to CHANGE the rule.  The AKC tried to make that rule and they were told to piss off.   

  You need to grow a new set because they were cut off when you allowed this to happen.   

Yeah...i know..it was for me alone to deside what happens with the chipping of dogs in my country..
I should be castrated....

[~flower~]

Yeah...i know..it was for me alone to deside what happens with the chipping of dogs in my country..
I should be castrated....

  I bet you didn't do nothing.         


   Since I would not be breeding, when I found a breeder who I wanted a puppy from, I would tell them they COULD NOT chip my puppy, I wouldn't care if it was reg'd or not, the UKC could piss off with it's money grubbing disregard for a person to make a health choice for themselves dumb ass rule making.
 

[Vet]

The National Dog Registry Tattoo Does Not Hurt Your Pet

Pet tattoos are not like human tattoos, because there are distinct dimensional differences between the structures of human and animal skin. The epidermis, or top layer of skin, on a human is much thicker, and the lower skin layers are more uneven than the layers of canine or feline skin. The epidermis is the layer of skin that dries up and flakes off, so to tattoo effectively, the ink must be inserted just below it. On humans, the tattoo must go much deeper into the skin, because of the thickness and uneven shape of the epidermis. Canine and feline epidermis is much thinner and is very regular and even. As a result, the tattoo does not need to penetrate as deeply into the skin.

The epidermis has only tactile sense, the sense of touch that allows you to feel surface contact. There are no "pain sensors " in the upper layers of skin. Because the tattoo needle does not reach the nerve endings of a cat or dog's skin, it is highly unlikely your pet will experience serious discomfort. The only sensation your pet will feel is the vibration of the marker.

Most pets, especially dogs, are easy to tattoo. However, animals generally dislike being held still on their sides, and some also dislike the sounds the clippers and some older tattoo markers make. Some pets' tactile senses are more pronounced than others, and they react when the vibrating marker touches their skin. Remember, your pet is in unusual surroundings, around strangers, and may be nervous. These factors alone sometimes are enough to make your pet voice his or her displeasure. If you stay calm, your pet will stay calm too.

A good amount of tummy tickling helps during the process. Never scold or yell at your pet--use a calm, reassuring tone to let him or her know that you are there and that everything is OK. It is up to you! The safety provided by a registered tattoo far outweighs any momentary nervousness you or your pet might experience. At tattoo demonstrations, we often ask volunteers to touch the tattoo marker tip while it is running (without ink, of course). They are always surprised that it simply does not hurt.

I'd expect them to respond to the vibration as well....

I did a little reading on tattooing this morning.  Found a German reference on tattoo ink showing up in the superficial cervical lymph nodes of dogs with ear tattoos.  I can't help but wonder how safe that is.