Shoulder and traps training

[Thin Lizzy]

Sweet.   

A couple of questions:

(1.)  Do you think there is much difference between bent and straight arm raises?

The main difference is the lever arm. With straight arm raises, the lever arm is your arm; with bent arms, it's the diagonal from your delt to the weight. In the latter the lever arm will be shorter and therefore you're in a position of better leverage, allowing you to use more weight.

[Luv2Hurt]

Sweet.   

A couple of questions:

(1.)  If I am going to go heavy on the lateral raises, like sets of 8-10, would I be better of going bent arm with 20 or maybe even 25 pounds, or straight arm with 12 or maybe 15 pounds?  Do you think there is much difference between bent and straight arm raises?

(2.)  When are we going to see more pics of your delts and traps?   

I have always went with a pretty straight arm when i do lateral raises, although there is a slight bend in my arm.  I always bring the bells down to the sides of my leg and pull up from there too. I have seldom done the bent arm type raise, except a couple machines put my arms in that position and they seem OK for a change of pace.  but overall I will always do Db or cable raises with a pretty straight arm and work in the 10-12 range.  Some people say tip the front of the DB down and i dont know if that matters much, i keep them pretty level now.  

Charles Glass in an article I read from him said if you are having trouble making gains with the front down type raise, try them with the front up instead.  I tried it and it felt a little different, might try it for a change from time to time.

I would do the straight arm type with a small bend if i was you and the 15lbs are the normal weight now with the 20's being the prefered choice  

Pics of little ole me?    I will have to start getting some done soon.  Its funny people have been telling me Im still tight at this BW, but i dont feel it yet myself.  The show im doing in October is shaping up to be a tough one, so Luv will be bringing it!!  And we will need plenty of pics  

[ripitupbaby]

The main difference is the lever arm. With straight arm raises, the lever arm is your arm; with bent arms, it's the diagonal from your delt to the weight. In the latter the lever arm will be shorter and therefore you're in a position of better leverage, allowing you to use more weight.

Do you think there is any difference in terms of which part of the shoulder it hits?  (i.e., is there one that is better than the other to really hit the side of the shoulder?)

I have always went with a pretty straight arm when i do lateral raises, although there is a slight bend in my arm.  I always bring the bells down to the sides of my leg and pull up from there too. I have seldom done the bent arm type raise, except a couple machines put my arms in that position and they seem OK for a change of pace.  but overall I will always do Db or cable raises with a pretty straight arm and work in the 10-12 range.  Some people say tip the front of the DB down and i dont know if that matters much, i keep them pretty level now.  

Charles Glass in an article I read from him said if you are having trouble making gains with the front down type raise, try them with the front up instead.  I tried it and it felt a little different, might try it for a change from time to time.

I would do the straight arm type with a small bend if i was you and the 15lbs are the normal weight now with the 20's being the prefered choice  

Pics of little ole me?    I will have to start getting some done soon.  Its funny people have been telling me Im still tight at this BW, but i dont feel it yet myself.  The show im doing in October is shaping up to be a tough one, so Luv will be bringing it!!  And we will need plenty of pics  

My trainer showed me a variation on the lateral raises that Tony Freeman showed her.  You turn your elbows upwards so that your arms are sort of like a scarecrow, and you basically do the raises with your elbows leading.  Does that make sense?  It seems to hit more of the rear delt and trap than the side and/or front.

I will try them with a relatively straight arm and as much weight as I can do in the 10-12 rep range, and I'll letcha know what the numbers look like. 

Bring it baby!!  You looked tight already in the last round of pics you posted.....if things are only improving since then, then you are well on your way.  OH, and you're right, the more pics, the better. 
You KNOW that the ladies here will be inspired by your pics, and we can give you some good feedback and support, so feel free to post them as often as possible.   

[tigereyes]

"Charles Glass in an article I read from him said if you are having trouble making gains with the front down type raise, try them with the front up instead.  I tried it and it felt a little different, might try it for a change from time to time."

Can you explain this a little further?  The way I'm reading it is when doing lateral raises, instead of doing the thumb down/pouring a pitcher type arm position, do more of a thumb up, palms facing forward position?  It seems like an interesting concept, so I just wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly and wasn't way off.  I'm always looking for new ways to improve my shoulders...will try anything, lol.

[Luv2Hurt]

My trainer showed me a variation on the lateral raises that Tony Freeman showed her.  You turn your elbows upwards so that your arms are sort of like a scarecrow, and you basically do the raises with your elbows leading.  Does that make sense?  It seems to hit more of the rear delt and trap than the side and/or front.

I will try them with a relatively straight arm and as much weight as I can do in the 10-12 rep range, and I'll letcha know what the numbers look like. 

Bring it baby!!  You looked tight already in the last round of pics you posted.....if things are only improving since then, then you are well on your way.  OH, and you're right, the more pics, the better. 
You KNOW that the ladies here will be inspired by your pics, and we can give you some good feedback and support, so feel free to post them as often as possible.   

Cool ripitup, that move your trainer showed you sounds good for rear delts, some times I will do rear raises laying face down on an incline bench and they are hard to do that way...no fun!  So they must be good then LOL 

I was pretty tight in those shots that was about 2 months ago, so things got a little worse since then LOL    But im really only about 15-20 lbs out from my competition weight now.  I kept my weight down after I competed last march 31 like just about 5 lbs or so from comp weight. Which was good and bad, I looked good but it was hard on my system and then I got sick for about a week, got dehydrated and did not really eat for a few days.  I think it was just my bodies way of saying "hey slow down!"

Thank you also for the push 

 

"Charles Glass in an article I read from him said if you are having trouble making gains with the front down type raise, try them with the front up instead.  I tried it and it felt a little different, might try it for a change from time to time."

Can you explain this a little further?  The way I'm reading it is when doing lateral raises, instead of doing the thumb down/pouring a pitcher type arm position, do more of a thumb up, palms facing forward position?  It seems like an interesting concept, so I just wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly and wasn't way off.  I'm always looking for new ways to improve my shoulders...will try anything, lol.

Yes tigereyes that is how I understood it.  I did try it and got a good pump from them.


Heres one that I kind of like of me 

[Thin Lizzy]

Do you think there is any difference in terms of which part of the shoulder it hits?  (i.e., is there one that is better than the other to really hit the side of the shoulder?)

Yeah, I think straight arms would hit the lower part of the side delt (the insertion in the middle of your upper arm), because that part of the muscle is closest to the weight. Bent arms hit the part of the muscle near your clavicle, for the same reason.

Lookin' good Luv2hurt

Since were showing pics, here's me at age 40 w/ Janeane Garafalo. She's about your (Rip) height.

[ripitupbaby]

Sweet pics.   Looking REALLY good Luv2Hurt.    
You're within a good weight range, it should be a piece of cake for you to become stage ready (hahaha I know it NEVER is)...and your shoulders look really good BTW. 
Hopefully you took the down time your body needed to get you mentally and physically ready for this prep!  I'm looking forward to seeing how you progress.

Thin Lizzy, is that really Janine G?  For some reason it doesn't look like her to me.

LOVE the pics, guys!   

[The Squadfather]

how's your back training coming Rip?

[ripitupbaby]

how's your back training coming Rip?

The back training thread is definitely coming soon...that's the other area where I need to focus some attention during this off-season, for sure! 

[Thin Lizzy]

Sweet pics.   Looking REALLY good Luv2Hurt.    

Thin Lizzy, is that really Janine G?  For some reason it doesn't look like her to me.

That's her. She looks unusually happy in that pic. My tender touch has that affect on women

[Luv2Hurt]

Yeah, I think straight arms would hit the lower part of the side delt (the insertion in the middle of your upper arm), because that part of the muscle is closest to the weight. Bent arms hit the part of the muscle near your clavicle, for the same reason.

Lookin' good Luv2hurt

Since were showing pics, here's me at age 40 w/ Janeane Garafalo. She's about your (Rip) height.

Thanks TL and yes Janeane looks very happy and cute as a button 

Sweet pics.   Looking REALLY good Luv2Hurt.   
You're within a good weight range, it should be a piece of cake for you to become stage ready (hahaha I know it NEVER is)...and your shoulders look really good BTW. 
Hopefully you took the down time your body needed to get you mentally and physically ready for this prep!  I'm looking forward to seeing how you progress.

Thin Lizzy, is that really Janine G?  For some reason it doesn't look like her to me.

LOVE the pics, guys!  

Thanks ripitup!  I think I allowed myself enough food and rest to peak again.  10 weeks out right now 15-17 pounds to lose should be about 190-195 for the show, Im 5'7"    Hows the delt training going for you right now?  I have been getting incredible pumps from the side lats lately 

The back training thread is definitely coming soon...that's the other area where I need to focus some attention during this off-season, for sure! 

Man thats a good one too.  For me this is one of the first areas where I lose size when I diet.  Have always trained back very basic and heavy, probally too heavy cause Im not getting the results I want    One routine I did when starting out was just wide grip pull ups and BB bent over rows, 6 work sets each.

[ripitupbaby]

Thanks TL and yes Janeane looks very happy and cute as a button 

Thanks ripitup!  I think I allowed myself enough food and rest to peak again.  10 weeks out right now 15-17 pounds to lose should be about 190-195 for the show, Im 5'7"    Hows the delt training going for you right now?  I have been getting incredible pumps from the side lats lately 

Man thats a good one too.  For me this is one of the first areas where I lose size when I diet.  Have always trained back very basic and heavy, probally too heavy cause Im not getting the results I want    One routine I did when starting out was just wide grip pull ups and BB bent over rows, 6 work sets each.

WELL...............I have been slacking big time...I havent made it to the gym yet this week.   
I did cardio three times in the morning this week just so that I don't feel like a total TOAD, but I am feeling pretty guilty about my recent slackness.  I keep telling myself that I deserve it, but enough is enough.  I AM still sore from my leg workout last Sunday, which is the last time I was at the gym LOL. 
Back ON IT next week, and I should be rested enough to move some heavy weight around.  I'll letcha know what the shoulder workout looks like.

Back Training thread is coming next week!  I need more upper back thickness!!   

Keep up the good work Luv...I have been training vicariously through you.   

[Luv2Hurt]

Keep up the good work Luv...I have been training vicariously through you.   

 

[ripitupbaby]

I did shoulders tonight, and definitely stepped out of the comfort zone a little. 
I am still feeling weak relative to last year's off-season, but I am also still slacking in terms of consistency. 

presses 25x20, 50x6, 50x6, 50x5
bent laterals 4 sets 25x8-ish
front raises 4 sets 15x10
Then I did a little machine work.  Short and sweet.  Heavier than I have in a long time.  I should be sore.   

I'll be pressing 60s later this year, no problem. 

[Luv2Hurt]

I'll be pressing 60s later this year, no problem. 

Without a doubt! 

[ripitupbaby]

I did shoulders tonight, and definitely stepped out of the comfort zone a little. 
I am still feeling weak relative to last year's off-season, but I am also still slacking in terms of consistency. 

presses 25x20, 50x6, 50x6, 50x5
bent laterals 4 sets 25x8-ish
front raises 4 sets 15x10
Then I did a little machine work.  Short and sweet.  Heavier than I have in a long time.  I should be sore.   

I'll be pressing 60s later this year, no problem. 

Just for the record, I am surprised at how sore I am!   

[ripitupbaby]

I did a TOTALLY different shoulder/trap workout tonight. 

(1) After a couple of warmup sets, I did Smith Machine Shoulder Presses.  I have not done these for AGES, and the last time I did, I was dieting, so I was using relatively light weight.  I did not go behind the neck cuz I am scared to lol.  I used a straight bench though, no incline whatsoever, just because it was what was there. 

I did one set with 30 pounds each side (60 total on the bar) for 8 reps.  Then three sets with 35 pounds on each side (70 total on the bar) for 5, 5, and 4 reps. 
Is that good weight?  I have no idea. 
This guy at the gym walked past me and said "going light tonight huh?" but I couldn't tell if he was joking or not.   
All I know is that it was hard as hell!

(2) Hammer Strength super LOW ROW - this is a row but it is sooo low that it hits mostly traps.  Three sets of however many (I can't recall) with 45 on each side.

(3) Nautilus Lateral Raise machine - Bent Arm.  Three sets set at 50 pounds.  I don't like this machine btw.   

(4) Nautilus Reverse Pec Deck - for rear delts.  Three sets set at 50 pounds first set (15) and 65 pounds for the last two (10).

(5) Shrugs - Two sets of dumbell shrugs using 45 and 55 pounds. 
Then I decided to go for it with the barbell shrugs. 
I did one set 135 x 10 and two sets 155 x 7 or 8. 

I finished off with two light sets on the Nautilus shoulder press to burn the shit out of my shoulders.

 

[davidpaul]

I personally do more volume,

do u do front raises? I do those with a bar, and go for the burn lol. I think u have a workout outlined there,

I would have to see images of the machines to see what they are.

I have an old nautilous lateral raise machine in gym, I use that and dumnbell. I do the arnold style raises, for laterals, and bring the dunmbells all the way up, so they touvh at the top.

[ripitupbaby]

I personally do more volume,

do u do front raises? I do those with a bar, and go for the burn lol. I think u have a workout outlined there,

I would have to see images of the machines to see what they are.

I have an old nautilous lateral raise machine in gym, I use that and dumnbell. I do the arnold style raises, for laterals, and bring the dunmbells all the way up, so they touvh at the top.

Most of the time I do front raises but I know I need to go heavier.  This was a totally different workout than I usually do.  I almost never do those exercises with the exception of the reverse pec deck and the shrugs.

What do you mean that you do more volume?  More exercises, more sets, more supersets? 


 

[davidpaul]

Most of the time I do front raises but I know I need to go heavier.  This was a totally different workout than I usually do.  I almost never do those exercises with the exception of the reverse pec deck and the shrugs.

What do you mean that you do more volume?  More exercises, more sets, more supersets? 


 

I just like to train lol, I think, a lot of people, esp in my gym thiunk I do too much, but i try to as much as I can, personally.

What you outlined looks about right to me.

[Luv2Hurt]

I did a TOTALLY different shoulder/trap workout tonight. 

(1) After a couple of warmup sets, I did Smith Machine Shoulder Presses.  I have not done these for AGES, and the last time I did, I was dieting, so I was using relatively light weight.  I did not go behind the neck cuz I am scared to lol.  I used a straight bench though, no incline whatsoever, just because it was what was there. 

I did one set with 30 pounds each side (60 total on the bar) for 8 reps.  Then three sets with 35 pounds on each side (70 total on the bar) for 5, 5, and 4 reps. 
Is that good weight?  I have no idea. 
This guy at the gym walked past me and said "going light tonight huh?" but I couldn't tell if he was joking or not.   
All I know is that it was hard as hell!

(2) Hammer Strength super LOW ROW - this is a row but it is sooo low that it hits mostly traps.  Three sets of however many (I can't recall) with 45 on each side.

(3) Nautilus Lateral Raise machine - Bent Arm.  Three sets set at 50 pounds.  I don't like this machine btw.   

(4) Nautilus Reverse Pec Deck - for rear delts.  Three sets set at 50 pounds first set (15) and 65 pounds for the last two (10).

(5) Shrugs - Two sets of dumbell shrugs using 45 and 55 pounds. 
Then I decided to go for it with the barbell shrugs. 
I did one set 135 x 10 and two sets 155 x 7 or 8. 

I finished off with two light sets on the Nautilus shoulder press to burn the shit out of my shoulders.

 

Well thats good you got on the bar presses    The only thing is I would for sure use is a bench with a full back rest, like Thin Lizzy said in an earlier post it helps take pressure off your spine.  I bet you will be able to get 45s on each side for 8-10 this winter!  Thats what we are shooting for     Those weights sound great without a back rest, man if its hard and you pushed like you did than thats what it should be.  Im sure the guy was joking with you because I never see women use that much weight on those either, so it was a compliment.

I do have to say that my first impression was the same as DavidPaul's the volume seemed a little low as in sets, good volume of pressing sets though IMO. Some people respond well to less volume and your delts rock so.........

I think the best part is you switched it up and did different stuff.  I would if I was you alternate between smith presses and DB presses in your work outs, meaning one week do smith the next week DB.  I like to do this once and a while and you have to try it.  Set up your smith machine and do a set, have DB's waiting right in front of you (and if they are not at least 15lbs then Im gonna come spank you  ) after the presses grab the DB's and do 12 lateral raises or as many as you can.  This will fry those delts I like to do 5 work sets like this.  DO NOT GIVE UP ON THE SMITH FRONT PRESSES keep them in there.  They will help you at your bench meets too 

I have not seen those Nautilus machines in years.  The first gym I joined had them and some were awesome!!  The leg extension is the best I ever used!  That shoulder press is pretty good too.  I also liked the nautilus preacher curl and triceps ext.

[ripitupbaby]

Well thats good you got on the bar presses    The only thing is I would for sure use is a bench with a full back rest, like Thin Lizzy said in an earlier post it helps take pressure off your spine.  I bet you will be able to get 45s on each side for 8-10 this winter!  Thats what we are shooting for     Those weights sound great without a back rest, man if its hard and you pushed like you did than thats what it should be.  Im sure the guy was joking with you because I never see women use that much weight on those either, so it was a compliment.

I do have to say that my first impression was the same as DavidPaul's the volume seemed a little low as in sets, good volume of pressing sets though IMO. Some people respond well to less volume and your delts rock so.........

I think the best part is you switched it up and did different stuff.  I would if I was you alternate between smith presses and DB presses in your work outs, meaning one week do smith the next week DB.  I like to do this once and a while and you have to try it.  Set up your smith machine and do a set, have DB's waiting right in front of you (and if they are not at least 15lbs then Im gonna come spank you  ) after the presses grab the DB's and do 12 lateral raises or as many as you can.  This will fry those delts I like to do 5 work sets like this.  DO NOT GIVE UP ON THE SMITH FRONT PRESSES keep them in there.  They will help you at your bench meets too 

I have not seen those Nautilus machines in years.  The first gym I joined had them and some were awesome!!  The leg extension is the best I ever used!  That shoulder press is pretty good too.  I also liked the nautilus preacher curl and triceps ext.

I'll definitely alternate between the two and try to use a bench with a taller back and slight incline next time.  And I'll do the supersets with the lateral raises, although you made me unsure about whether I want to use more than 15 pounds...

However, I am doing some research re. training for maximizing my benchpress, and IF I decide to give it a try this winter, I will be changing my workout routine a lot, including doing very little shoulder work at all.  We'll see...it's a big change, and I want to make sure I can do it without compromising my bb goals.   I'm prolly gonna do the bench meet regardless of whether or not I train specifically for it, though.

 

[Luv2Hurt]

although you made me unsure about whether I want to use more than 15 pounds...

Awwhhh Ripitup.............

However, I am doing some research re. training for maximizing my benchpress, and IF I decide to give it a try this winter, I will be changing my workout routine a lot, including doing very little shoulder work at all.  We'll see...it's a big change, and I want to make sure I can do it without compromising my bb goals.   I'm prolly gonna do the bench meet regardless of whether or not I train specifically for it, though.

 

That probally is very true, the PLs I know do very little shoulder work, but have seen them do some.  I guess the point I was making is the strength and power you build on that movement will transfer into more strength on the bench down the road 

[ripitupbaby]

That probally is very true, the PLs I know do very little shoulder work, but have seen them do some.  I guess the point I was making is the strength and power you build on that movement will transfer into more strength on the bench down the road 

Indeed! 

I am learning that training for benching is quite different if you really go for it...two chest workouts a week, and maybe like 1 or 2 shoulder exercises on a day inbetween.  Definitely still do laterals and something for rear delts.  No extra tricep work either, and lots of rest.  I think that the shoulder work is reduced to avoid over-exhausting the muscles and potentially injuring yourself. 
I'm still scoping it out and trying to figure out how to best structure my workouts if I go this way.  I am not going to do much of anything different in terms of my overall workout routine until probably October.  In the meantime, I am just going to focus on heavy lifting and getting my strength back up everywhere.   

[The Squadfather]

every good PL'er i've ever known blasted the living shit out of shoulders.