Shoulder and traps training

[davidpaul]

Awwhhh Ripitup.............

That probally is very true, the PLs I know do very little shoulder work, but have seen them do some.  I guess the point I was making is the strength and power you build on that movement will transfer into more strength on the bench down the road 

The powerlifters I have seen, did little to none shoulder work.

[ripitupbaby]

The powerlifters I have seen, did little to none shoulder work.

I just posted my proposed PL routine on the PL board.  Not much shoulder work in there, as per Hedgehog's advice.  I will continue to do some lateral and rear delt work.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=166468.0

And I will continue to post some updates on how my shoulders are doing in this thread.   

[The Squadfather]

probably the best bencher who ever lived Jim Williams said he used to demolish his shoulders until he couldn't lift his arms with militaries, front raises with a 100 pound plate, side raises, rear raises, shrugs, etc. and the man benched 700 raw in 1972, Bill Kazmaier was known for seated db pressing a pair of 100's for 40 reps and doing all the other shoulder movements but i suppose they don't know what they're doing.

[ripitupbaby]

My understanding is that shoulder workout is minimized when training for PL so that you don't burn your shoulders out before or after a chest workout (over-training them), and because you get plenty of shoulder work through your two chest workouts every week.

[The Squadfather]

My understanding is that shoulder workout is minimized when training for PL so that you don't burn your shoulders out before or after a chest workout (over-training them), and because you get plenty of shoulder work through your two chest workouts every week.

wrong understanding.

[ripitupbaby]

wrong understanding.

No, I'm right.   

[trab]

No, I'm right.   

Your Both right (but I hate to EVER say that re: Squad  )

Thing is, if you watch what a top PLers idea of "a little assistance work for shoulders at the end of a workout"... It would destroy a lot of very impressive local  BBers.

Them shoulders need stability.
If yur going to a Bench shirt, you will be forced to touch lower than you'r used to.
(GOOD! That'z how you lift the most!)

Spend some time on delts, do clean & jerks if experienced, front raises, band & Chain front raises.

You will gains strength very fast w/ the shit, and its easy to get greedy and hurt a delt. That low touch with
wide grip, but elbows tucked on the drop is SO different from what your used to. Its going to use muscles that have never been used before. esp ant-Delts.

[The Squadfather]

No, I'm right.   

hahahahha, ok "rip" i guess people like Bill Kazmaier, Jim Williams, Ryan Kennelly, Brian Siders, Ted Arcidi didn't know what they were doing , they all did tons of shoulder work.

[trab]

hahahahha, ok "rip" i guess people like Bill Kazmaier, Jim Williams, Ryan Kennelly, Brian Siders, Ted Arcidi didn't know what they were doing , they all did tons of shoulder work.

Right, but they spend even more time on their lifts.
Its assistance work, not a end to itself.

[The Squadfather]

Right, but they spend even more time on their lifts.
Its assistance work, not a end to itself.

i never said they didn't and i never said she shouldn't, she's claiming that ZERO shoulder work is the way to go and there isn't ONE huge bencher that trains that way but if she wants to take her 185 pound husbands mighty advice on how he achieved his massive 255 bench let her listen.

[trab]

i never said they didn't and i never said she shouldn't, she's claiming that ZERO shoulder work is the way to go and there isn't ONE huge bencher that trains that way but if she wants to take her 185 pound husbands mighty advice on how he achieved his massive 255 bench let her listen.

I vote for shoulder work too. esp ant delt specialization at 1st.

 Shirt form is WAY diff from what most flat-back elbows-out BBers are remotely used to.
Add to that how much more plate you HAVE to throw on Bar to even make the shirt work, and invitation to delt injury.

Yes train delts. But a bunch of stuff like side laterals etc are pointless.

[Luv2Hurt]

but if she wants to take her 185 pound husbands mighty advice on how he achieved his massive 255 bench let her listen.

Dude you are so transparent.

[ripitupbaby]

hahahahahaa   ok....I am gonna do SOME shoulder work, I always planned to.  I am going to do incline dumbell presses, which will hit the fronts, and I am going to do sides and rears every week.

trab's actually right.   

And my husband weighs well over 185 and benches well over 255.   

[trab]

hahahahahaa   ok....I am gonna do SOME shoulder work, I always planned to.  I am going to do incline dumbell presses, which will hit the fronts, and I am going to do sides and rears every week.

trab's actually right.   

And my husband weighs well over 185 and benches well over 255.   

Yeah, but Squad can kick his ass eatin'n DOUGNUTS!
Squads got the superior body part for that job. And, His only remarkable one at that.

[ripitupbaby]

trab, what do you suggest for anterior delts...front raises?

 

[trab]

trab, what do you suggest for anterior delts...front raises?

 

I hurt my ant delt good shortly after geting the low-touch "Elbows Tight" form.

THing is, Ive ALLWAYS DONE Tons of Front raises! THey didnt help with that low touch move at all.
THis bench is a totaly diff animal. And, you will RAPIDLY go up in Lbs on the bar. Love that!

**Ant delt raise w/ band or chains, or last choice cables.
DBs get light and easy at the top.  You want the exact oposite of that. esp if ya dont have delts like pumkins. Big dudes can just bull it .
Smaller PPL need to think a little, but many get way more out of their shirt.

***Shoulder rotations, again the DB just dont lay the pressure on where it really counts.
You want that pressure where the DB normaly gives the least.
Bands, or chains on the single arm curl handle (big caribiner) from the  cable crossover unit.

Clean and jerks, or even just repetive low-rep cleans.

**Upright rows (I like single hands w/ a band in each hand, or again, the single handles w/ chains. Easier on the shoulder joints.)

Lats are important to, for a wide flared Landing pad at the bottom. All the normal stuff for them.
Triceps will tell ya  what to do. Cant go wrong.
 I like partial movment to  lock out dips,,, & 4 and 5 board press w/ shoulder width grip.

You can bench 2+ wheels per side before ya know it, get help and force rep it out.
Velocity off the chest is the whole trick.

[ripitupbaby]

So here's the deal with shoulder training during a bench press program.  I am going to focus a lot of my training around maximizing my bench press.  As a result, I do not want to overtrain the shoulders or the triceps, both of which get hit hard during the bench workouts.

YES, there will be shoulder training involved, but it will be "PRE HAB" training as opposed to mass building.  It will focus on the side and rear delts, particularly the rears.  The fronts get hit pretty hard during the chest workout, esp if incline presses are included.  Therefore, the sides and rears will require pre-hab work.

For those of you who are not familiar with pre-hab training, it's basically training specifically to AVOID injury...training to make sure that the components of the shoulders that are important for benching stay strong enough to not get injured.  This is much different than training to maximize shoulder strength or to build alot of mass.




Here's some very basic info on what Pre-Hab training is.

Many physical therapists and athletic trainers are using pre-hab as part of a daily program to help prevent nagging injuries as well as the larger ones that require surgery. To be specific, a pre-hab program to prevent injuries focuses on a person’s body imbalances. Most imbalances occur in the following regions of the body:
Chest and Upper back / Rear Shoulder -- Many young athletes try to bench press a truck but neglect their upper back and rear deltoids, which can lead to shoulder injuries and a sloping of the upper back.

Prehab is a personalized exercise program that continually evolves. It provides sports specific focused exercises and activities for athlete's needs. The philosophy is simple. Prevent injuries. The development and execution of an effective program can be complex. The practice of prehab and its success relies greatly on an athlete's ability to commit to prevention. The development of the program needs to be progressive and periodically re-evaluated to change with the athlete's needs.

[The Squadfather]

fucck all that dumb shit, work up to handling at least bodyweight on seated shoulder presses for reps and your bench will climb.

[ripitupbaby]

I'm usually not in favor of deleting posts unless it's something really mean, but in the spirit of keeping this thread on track, I'll delete all of the non-relevant posts.   

[ripitupbaby]

So I've been trying to do the Smith machine presses for the last couple of weeks, with a slight incline on the bench.  Whenever I do them, there is some "crunching" going on in my right shoulder.  I can feel it, it's on the way down, and it seems like I can hear it, but I'm not sure.  I don't know what it is, but I don't suppose it's good.  It doesn't really feel good either lol.

I don't seem to have a problem with incline or straight up dumbell presses.  I wonder if it's the angle of the Smith machine?

[Luv2Hurt]

So I've been trying to do the Smith machine presses for the last couple of weeks, with a slight incline on the bench.  Whenever I do them, there is some "crunching" going on in my right shoulder.  I can feel it, it's on the way down, and it seems like I can hear it, but I'm not sure.  I don't know what it is, but I don't suppose it's good.  It doesn't really feel good either lol.

I don't seem to have a problem with incline or straight up dumbell presses.  I wonder if it's the angle of the Smith machine?

If it hurts then dont do em Rip.  I make sure to position myself so the when the bar comes down it almost touches my nose when it goes past it.  I like to get as far under the bar as i can.  It takes a little while and some fiddiling to get it set up right.

[trab]

So I've been trying to do the Smith machine presses for the last couple of weeks, with a slight incline on the bench.  Whenever I do them, there is some "crunching" going on in my right shoulder.  I can feel it, it's on the way down, and it seems like I can hear it, but I'm not sure.  I don't know what it is, but I don't suppose it's good.  It doesn't really feel good either lol.

I don't seem to have a problem with incline or straight up dumbell presses.  I wonder if it's the angle of the Smith machine?

Ha! Gets Worse! Just Wait.   It sounds like the chiroprators room when I roll out of bed in the AM!

DBs give a lot more free ROM. Some  very strong PLers NEVER do a unshirted Full ROM rep close to they max.
They work off Boards on chest almost exclusivly for the actual Bench Presse's they train. Meets only for Full ROM.

U Cant pick up a new set of shoulders @ Wal-Mart.

[ripitupbaby]

No more Smith machine presses, at least not until after the bench meet in February.  Probably no more shoulder presses, just incline DBs.  No need to risk injury.

 

[Playboy]

No more Smith machine presses, at least not until after the bench meet in February.  Probably no more shoulder presses, just incline DBs.  No need to risk injury.

 

Yes, definately be carefull especially when dealing with shoulders. For now, you may be better off going a tad light and doing your presses on the shoulder hammer strength machine or machine press.

[Butterbean]

Dumbell Presses - 25 x 20 warmup, 45 x 11, 45 x 9, 50 x 7
Dumbell Lateral Raises - straight arms, 12 pounds, 4 sets.  Two were supersets with 5 pound dumbells on the rears.
Front Raises - two supersets, 12 pound dumbell alternating, 15 pound bodybar with back against the wall
Upright Rows - 2 sets Ez bar plus 30 for 15, 2 sets ez bar plus 35 for 12
Shrugs - 3 sets with 45 pound plates
Reverse Pec deck - 3 sets

Thanks Rip...did this workout today.  I had to laugh because I was carrying the printout around the gym w/me and referring to it from time to time and a guy goes, "Whose workout is that?"  And I said "ripitupbaby's."  He was like "Who?" lol