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Author Topic: Brutality: Animals or Humans, where do we draw the line?  (Read 5311 times)
~flower~
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2007, 07:18:41 AM »

What is brutality and what is not brutality morally is my question?

bru·tal·i·ty  (br-tl-t)
n. pl. bru·tal·i·ties
1. The state or quality of being ruthless, cruel, harsh, or unrelenting.
2. A ruthless, cruel, harsh, or unrelenting act.

I don't think boxing is a "state of being cruel" or unrelenting, or a ruthless act.

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I know we can only speculate but look at the past, when has this been such a widely publicized issue? The media has spent more time on this than abused and missng children we see sex offenders get off everyday because of legal technicalities and kills or rape again but kill an animal and your ass is grass its all BULLSHITT!

 It is because he is a public person.  If a public person was accused of child molestation it would get the same or more amount of coverage.   Just like stars who get a DUI, it makes news, but if a 'regular' person gets one it may make the local paper. 


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Here in the states on one of the nature channels (discovery channnel I think) they have shows about dog fighting task forces and thats all they do is track down dog fighting rings but those cases never make the big national news networks. If dog fighting was such a big deal why did they wait until a celeb athlete was accused? This is why I say it's hypocrosy I have a hard time thinking its all about the dogs or what they go through in these gruesome situations (again which I despise). I think MONEY is the bigger issue here (Not race at all) Vick broke the one law you don't break in America and that is DO NOT MAKE MONEY that the government can't tax and or regulate. We could go down many rabbit holes on this issue of whats brutal and whats not based on choices i.e., (religion, abortion, animal euthanizations ect.)

Again, he is a known person.  It won't make national news that a dog fighting operation was busted unless someone well known was involved.  Just like every murder doesn't make national news, or every child molestor, or DUI.  There wouldn't be enough hours in the day to broadcast all the news on every horrendous act that happened that day.

 Dog fighting is more "brutal" than human fighting sports for other reasons besides the participants not having a choice and their treatment and fate.

Dog fighters are known to take peoples pets and use them to train their dogs.  They will take smaller dogs to get them started, then maybe find bigger dogs that will supposedly boost up the dog because it took down a bigger dog.  I don't believe in boxing they go and find small people and have them beat up, and then find overweight bigger people and have them pound the shit out of them so they can feel pumped up. 

 You are comparing apples to oranges. 
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2007, 09:09:15 AM »

bru·tal·i·ty  (br-tl-t)
n. pl. bru·tal·i·ties
1. The state or quality of being ruthless, cruel, harsh, or unrelenting.
2. A ruthless, cruel, harsh, or unrelenting act.

I don't think boxing is a "state of being cruel" or unrelenting, or a ruthless act.

 It is because he is a public person.  If a public person was accused of child molestation it would get the same or more amount of coverage.   Just like stars who get a DUI, it makes news, but if a 'regular' person gets one it may make the local paper. 


Again, he is a known person.  It won't make national news that a dog fighting operation was busted unless someone well known was involved.  Just like every murder doesn't make national news, or every child molestor, or DUI.  There wouldn't be enough hours in the day to broadcast all the news on every horrendous act that happened that day.

 Dog fighting is more "brutal" than human fighting sports for other reasons besides the participants not having a choice and their treatment and fate.

Dog fighters are known to take peoples pets and use them to train their dogs.  They will take smaller dogs to get them started, then maybe find bigger dogs that will supposedly boost up the dog because it took down a bigger dog.  I don't believe in boxing they go and find small people and have them beat up, and then find overweight bigger people and have them pound the shit out of them so they can feel pumped up. 

 You are comparing apples to oranges. 


I don't think so but I respect your view point here, thanks Flower!
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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2007, 09:15:55 AM »


Don't think you could force humans to fight to the death, torture and kill kids who where not mean enough to fight, all while running an illgal gambling ring and only get 18 months in jail for it.

Btw ufc fighting is not till the death. Pretty sure no ones guts are torn out in a ufc fight. I have yet to see a ufc combatant or boxer have his face torn off and continue to fight. Happens all the time in dog fighting rings.

I agree with your comments as you have stated them but this is my view as stated in earlier on in this thread, "IMHO, boxing and UFC is the human version of Dog fighting and/or Cock fighting; Should these sports be illegal from a "brutality" point of view?"
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2007, 09:53:20 AM »

I don't think so but I respect your view point here, thanks Flower!

 so dog fighting aside, do you wish that all human fighting sports be banned?
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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2007, 11:00:04 AM »

Well, IMO it's in our human nature to destroy everything in our path including ourselves.  Pitting each other in mortal combat for sport or for life goes back to the start of time.  Humans have put man vs man, man vs beast, & beast vs beast to pleasure our appetite for blood & destruction.

Until the day something comes in & takes us off the top of the food chain..this will never change.  Debating why people do this is pointless.  People try to come off as 'civilized' but in the same breath will squash a spider because it's scary looking. 

I don't condone what Vick did & his penalty should fit the crime because there's been laws in place that say we shouldn't do this.  In some parts of the world...this is still normal part of 'culture'. 

I can't say what people should do...or can't do morally.....we can only hold ourselves in contempt in the end.  I just don't like people telling me what I can or can't do....or if what they are doing is in direct impact on me & affects my life.
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« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2007, 11:05:32 AM »

I can't say what people should do...or can't do morally.....we can only hold ourselves in contempt in the end.  I just don't like people telling me what I can or can't do....or if what they are doing is in direct impact on me & affects my life.

So are you saying that while you find dog fighting wrong, you think it should be up to each person to decided to do it or not and we should have that right?
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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2007, 11:30:52 AM »

I'm not the moral police....& telling people their business is not my responsibility either.

There's laws in place.....we can comply....or face consequences if we break laws.  Pretty simple.

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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2007, 11:39:20 AM »

Humans ARE an animal.

  But you are right, animals are better than humans in some cases, so no comparison.
I strongly disagree.  Neither is right, and I won't find one more acceptable than the other. 


I find it very strange, and a bit disturbing, to be honest, that you do not make any distinction between torture of humans and animals.

I also would like to know what you mean when you state that animals are better than humans in some cases?
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2007, 11:39:30 AM »

I'm not the moral police....& telling people their business is not my responsibility either.

There's laws in place.....we can comply....or face consequences if we break laws.  Pretty simple.

 I don't understand what you are saying?  You say you don't want people telling you what you can or can't do, then answer my post with "there are laws in place"?
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2007, 11:41:22 AM »

I find it very strange, and a bit disturbing, to be honest, that you do not make any distinction between torture of humans and animals.

 Why should I?  It is strange that I find torture unacceptable for everyone and everything?

  Sorry I find them both wrong.  Wrong is wrong.
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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2007, 11:43:26 AM »

I don't understand what you are saying?  You say you don't want people telling you what you can or can't do, then answer my post with "there are laws in place"?

at the moment...it makes sense to me...but..I have to admit my blood/sugar may be a little off.

I'll check back in a few & re-read what I wrote

 Wink
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2007, 11:44:26 AM »


I find it very strange, and a bit disturbing, to be honest, that you do not make any distinction between torture of humans and animals.

I also would like to know what you mean when you state that animals are better than humans in some cases?

I think the way flower is saying it is the same thing I think----humans are the cruelest, most unreasonable species on this planet.  And part of that cruelty comes from the fact that we try to hide behind this bullshit moral facade.  People also have this superiority complex where they have to put themselves on this pedestal where they are the "top" when in reality as far as a species goes, humans are incredibly weak.  If you don't believe me, take the average city dweller and put them out in the deep woods and see if they survive.   Many won't.    Humans are in the position they are in the world because they destroy and dominate as a pack.  


As far as torture of animals and humans.....  how is it really different?  There is a sick mind involved if its a puppy or a baby.  They both should be reported/dealt with as far as I'm concerned.  
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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2007, 12:09:02 PM »


 so dog fighting aside, do you wish that all human fighting sports be banned?


All BS aside Flower, not only no but HELL NO I love'em all well, except female boxing I guess I am narrow minded when it comes to women beat the hell out of each other! I know I know I am being a chauvanistic hypocrite but I just hate it! But with that said, I am an athlete myself (well what's left of me lol) I love the competition and all that goes with getting prepared mentally and physically for the event. I actual think boxers (which I did in the military) and the UFC/Martial arts competitors are arguably the best conditioned athletes overall (ofc not to take away from BB and fig competitors) it takes a special kind to participate in those type of contact sports.

I still disagree with you, that humans are animals.  Grin
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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2007, 12:12:45 PM »

All BS aside Flower, not only no but HELL NO I love'em all

Then what was the purpose of your question?   Undecided

 
  Humans are animals, that is a fact.  We are what, one iota DNA away from apes?
Roll Eyes

 
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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2007, 12:15:43 PM »


I find it very strange, and a bit disturbing, to be honest, that you do not make any distinction between torture of humans and animals.



I'll 2nd that Hedge. Killing/ Torturing a human is in another league from animals.... THere is no comparison.

Excuse me, I'm going to throw a Beef Steak on the Grill. I like them medium-rare. Someone else killed and processed it for me, I'm not sure how the animal died or suffered - but it did.

I have killed and processed many animals in my youth. I grew up thinking it was natural. I still think so.
I don't take the time and trouble to go kill and process my own Deer, Ducks, Rabbits, Squirrels, Pheasants... anymore.  But I do know how the food I eat got in the plastic wrapped container.

Elevate pets (Certain Pets) to human status, and you have a slippery slope to a bad conclusion.
That's why the  law considers animals PROPERTY.
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« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2007, 12:25:40 PM »


  We are talking brutality here.  Let's keep it straight.  Cruel, ruthless, unrelenting behavior.

   Nice try though.
   Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2007, 12:39:12 PM »

  We are talking brutality here.  Let's keep it straight.  Cruel, ruthless, unrelenting behavior.

   Nice try though.
   Smiley

Looking back when I was younger I did some pretty "brutal" things in the ring.   Why?  Because its what I had to do to win.  My old roommate was/is a far better boxer than I was.  He took some time away from the ring and in his return fight he broke several of the guys ribs and ruptured his liver.  At the time we all laughed about it and called it "a good fight".  Why?  because we could.  no one made any of us fight.  We were stupid males in our early 20's

No matter how you put it, with human monitored animal combat---be it rattlesnakes, pitbulls, cats, cocks, horses or anything else, there is a degree of humans "making" the animals fight.  Thats the biggest issue there.   Take two roosters on free range are they going to fight?  probably.  but they won't have razors strapped to their legs and the loser will have a way to escape.   this doesn't happen with human organized fights.  Rarely do "free range" subordinates get killed or even seriously maimed---it happens, but not near as often as if there is human involvement. 
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« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2007, 01:13:29 PM »

Then what was the purpose of your question?   Undecided

 
  Humans are animals, that is a fact.  We are what, one iota DNA away from apes?
Roll Eyes

 
I asked the question because wanted to know how people felt about brutal sports legal or not (boxing UFC dog fighting etc.) and if some saw the same brutal similiarities that I see. But that is why I said "where do we draw the line on brutality".


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=737567328566379082

Long video but very informative
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~flower~
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« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2007, 01:18:16 PM »

I asked the question because wanted to know how people felt about brutal sports legal or not (boxing UFC dog fighting etc.) and if some saw the same brutal similiarities that I see. But that is why I said "where do we draw the line on brutality".

I see similarities, but the most glaring and IMO the point that separates the 2, is the fact that in one 'sport' the contestants don't have a choice. 
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« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2007, 01:47:16 PM »

I see similarities, but the most glaring and IMO the point that separates the 2, is the fact that in one 'sport' the contestants don't have a choice. 

THE  dogs have the choice not to fight. Then they lose and will prolly be killed. Dog dont know that.
THe Winners got bred, and that's the breed stock of all todays pitts. Remember that.
Pitts Love to roll around another dog. They are not "Forced". It would be impossible to "Force" them to fight.
Encourage prolly, "Force" no.

Anthropomorphizing animals and elevating them to the status of higher conscious humanbeings is flawed logic and our society's laws recognize that.
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« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2007, 01:57:07 PM »

THE  dogs have the choice not to fight. Then they lose and will prolly be killed. Dog dont know that.
THe Winners got bred, and that's the breed stock of all todays pitts. Remember that.
Pitts Love to roll around another dog. They are not "Forced". It would be impossible to "Force" them to fight.
Encourage prolly, "Force" no.

Anthropomorphizing animals and elevating them to the status of higher conscious humanbeings is flawed logic and our society's laws recognize that.

Oh bullshit.   You don't think the fact that they are in a pit has anything to do with it?  If they were out in the open one could chose to run away.  How do they do that in a pit?  They don't so they fight back. 
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« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2007, 02:07:46 PM »

your boyfriends a geek

hi
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« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2007, 02:27:48 PM »

Oh bullshit.   You don't think the fact that they are in a pit has anything to do with it?  If they were out in the open one could chose to run away.  How do they do that in a pit?  They don't so they fight back. 

Pitt Bulls don't need much (any) encouragement to fight. Click on the link and learn about the history of Pitt Bulls. Past and present.

You are talking w/ no base of knowledge.

Our legal system totally rejects your personal opinion that (Certain) animals are equal to humans.
No human society ever has, or could, or will function under that premise.

Time for a cheeseburger...
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« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2007, 03:08:04 PM »

THE  dogs have the choice not to fight. Then they lose and will prolly be killed. Dog dont know that.
THe Winners got bred, and that's the breed stock of all todays pitts. Remember that.
Pitts Love to roll around another dog. They are not "Forced". It would be impossible to "Force" them to fight.
Encourage prolly, "Force" no.


so you think pits enjoy getting in with another dog and ripping each other apart? just because a dog may have some animal agression by nature doesnt mean they want or choose to fight.  the scum who do this exploit certain characteristics of the breed in order to turn them into fighting dogs.  the pitbull wants to please his owner more than anything and if that means fighting another dog thats what will happen.  any grand champion fighting pitbull would have turned out to be a extemely friendly family dog if he had gone to the right owner. my dog is purple ribbon apbt who has been going to dog parks since she was a pup.  she has been jumped on, rolled around with, on one occassion even bit on the nose by another dog. not once has she ever tried to fight.
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« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2007, 03:13:53 PM »

Pitt Bulls don't need much (any) encouragement to fight. Click on the link and learn about the history of Pitt Bulls. Past and present.

You are talking w/ no base of knowledge.

Our legal system totally rejects your personal opinion that (Certain) animals are equal to humans.
No human society ever has, or could, or will function under that premise.

Time for a cheeseburger...
I'm calling bullshit on this one.   Just out of curiousity, how many fighting---and I mean real fighting dogs have you really had contact with.  I'm not talking about someone who has a big pit he claims is a badass, I'm talking about hardcore proven dogs.  It really, really seems from your posts that the numbers are 0.  

Yes pits have a history of fighting that cannot be denied, but they also have a long history as devoted family pets.   Conditioning in the pit was so they fought as they were trained to od.  We've had this argument before, they are not the viscious mindless killers you seem to think they are.  They are a dog, doing what they, as a dog have been trained to do.   Yes, you cannot deny the history of bull baiting, fighting, but you can neither deny the history of the breed as companions for presidents, companions for children---even blind and deaf children.  The versitility of the breed goes far beyond the fighting pit.  

If they were the "machines' that you have them as, why was it when I worked with animal control we dealt with case after case after case where family pets were stolen and forced into a pit only to get mauled--and for the most part were killed.  Those dogs did not fight anything like the dogs that had been trained to fight.   they got killed.  You would think if they were the mindless killers you are portraying them to be that would never have happened.  

I've got a "game bred" female and a female puppy.  I just introduced a 100+ lb intact male dogo to my house within the last month.  has there been a dog fight?  No, not one.  Why?  because the female is trained appropriately and the dogo is getting trained appropriately.  They are dogs, not machines.  
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