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Author Topic: Brutality: Animals or Humans, where do we draw the line?  (Read 5216 times)
Vet
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2007, 03:15:30 PM »

so you think pits enjoy getting in with another dog and ripping each other apart? just because a dog may have some animal agression by nature doesnt mean they want or choose to fight.  the scum who do this exploit certain characteristics of the breed in order to turn them into fighting dogs.  the pitbull wants to please his owner more than anything and if that means fighting another dog thats what will happen.  any grand champion fighting pitbull would have turned out to be a extemely friendly family dog if he had gone to the right owner. my dog is purple ribbon apbt who has been going to dog parks since she was a pup.  she has been jumped on, rolled around with, on one occassion even bit on the nose by another dog. not once has she ever tried to fight.


I agree with this post, especially whats in bold. 
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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2007, 03:16:41 PM »

your boyfriends a geek

hi

comic relief
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« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2007, 03:32:08 PM »

comic relief

you don't have the video of the cats do you?  That'd be a good one to insert about right now. 
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« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2007, 04:04:37 PM »

I'm calling bullshit on this one.   Just out of curiousity, how many fighting---and I mean real fighting dogs have you really had contact with.  I'm not talking about someone who has a big pit he claims is a badass, I'm talking about hardcore proven dogs.  It really, really seems from your posts that the numbers are 0.  

Yes pits have a history of fighting that cannot be denied, but they also have a long history as devoted family pets.   Conditioning in the pit was so they fought as they were trained to od.  We've had this argument before, they are not the viscious mindless killers you seem to think they are.  They are a dog, doing what they, as a dog have been trained to do.   Yes, you cannot deny the history of bull baiting, fighting, but you can neither deny the history of the breed as companions for presidents, companions for children---even blind and deaf children.  The versitility of the breed goes far beyond the fighting pit.  

If they were the "machines' that you have them as, why was it when I worked with animal control we dealt with case after case after case where family pets were stolen and forced into a pit only to get mauled--and for the most part were killed.  Those dogs did not fight anything like the dogs that had been trained to fight.   they got killed.  You would think if they were the mindless killers you are portraying them to be that would never have happened.  

I've got a "game bred" female and a female puppy.  I just introduced a 100+ lb intact male dogo to my house within the last month.  has there been a dog fight?  No, not one.  Why?  because the female is trained appropriately and the dogo is getting trained appropriately.  They are dogs, not machines.  

YOur putting words in my mouth.

You have such an emotional investment in this breed that you refuse to open your eyes that the fact of the
extraordinary problems with them. Sounds like you've seen plenty to me.

Not 1 in 100 of your customers will train or work with their animals to the degree you will. Fact is most "pitt" owners in the USA are irresponsible -The Animal is behind a fence that cant contain the animal in a large city.
Accident waiting to happen.

Go walk thru  any large city (except the ones w/ breed laws) and you'll see plenty.

Every one of these mauling has 1 thing in common.... "He NEVER  acted like that before..."  Cry
Well, Boo Hoo it's a little too late then, isn't it?
 Its Ok, the ortho surgeons and Lawyers and judges will figure it out.

Dont sweat it Animals are on equal par a human beings...
I got to go, Time for some Pork-chops...
Maybee anyone who eats meat should be required to kill a animal for the privilege, or be force to go vegetarian.
Let them eat their hypocrisy.

 
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2007, 04:46:41 PM »

Our legal system totally rejects your personal opinion that (Certain) animals are equal to humans.
No human society ever has, or could, or will function under that premise.


 Are you an idiot?

  Please stick to the point and don't mingle other issues into it.

  Torture for the sake of torture is wrong.   No matter what the "animal" is.

  You can lower yourself and find one acceptable, but I will not. 

 If you think your comments are shocking, they are not, I eat meat, so you having a cheeseburger is no big deal. I had a hamburger at lunch.  Grow up. 

  You are entitled to your opinions, but have an intelligent discussion and maybe people will actually take you seriously. 

 If not you will probably get banned again for trolling.   Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2007, 04:49:09 PM »

Dont sweat it Animals are on equal par a human beings...
I got to go, Time for some Pork-chops...
Maybee anyone who eats meat should be required to kill a animal for the privilege, or be force to go vegetarian.
Let them eat their hypocrisy.

It is not hypocrisy, there are laws that even food animals are not supposed to be treated cruelly or tortured. 

  Last warning.
 
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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2007, 05:52:21 PM »

It's illegal to kill another human being so I should hope not!-Ok you have been lucky and not all dogs die in the ring either but remember those that have died in the ring, e.g., (Du Ku Kim in 1982) its brutality and it makes money for the topheads and any one who participates is like one of those Dogs in Vick's fighting ring, a pawn. thats the big difference between animal and human fighting. Is Mike Vick going to jail because of the brutality inflicted upon those animals? Or is he going to jail because they didn't have the choice to participate? IMO its the same brutal arena with possibilities of death as the end result. Again I say it's all hypocrisy; some would say, its unfortunate that Du Ku Kim died in the ring but it was his choice, dumbass should have ducked, but you better not make that pit bull fight or you ass will go to jail. I think we have put animal life above human life! BTW I love animals especially dogs I just think its all hypocrisy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

1.Hustle mans reply to Vet is some of the only logical thinking here..
2.His compare of Boom Boom Mancini vs Du Ku kim is SPOT ON...
   There is violence, deaths and lots of money at stake...

Ok, What if Dogs were fought but rules were in place to prevent deaths? Even have a Veterinarian there.
 (Vet Fill them in on DVM Swinford. I assume Dog fighting was not a crime in his day?)

Would that be any different than humans fighting?
We fight people very violently ; injure and sometimes kill them, But dont you dare do it to a DOG!

A couple here seem to think animal life is as valuable as human life. Which animals, who decides?
There is NO society/ culture on the planet w/ its laws and values predicated on such nonsense as animals equal to humans.
It would cease to function.

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« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2007, 06:15:54 PM »

Interesting question.

For those of you who think humans and animals are equal:

Would it be ok if the dogs were stopped before any serious harm were done?

Ie, if the dogs were supervised under rules similar to UFC?


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« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2007, 06:31:33 PM »


Would it be ok if the dogs were stopped before any serious harm were done?

Ie, if the dogs were supervised under rules similar to UFC?




interesting point there zack
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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2007, 06:34:28 PM »

Interesting question.

For those of you who think humans and animals are equal:

Would it be ok if the dogs were stopped before any serious harm were done?

Ie, if the dogs were supervised under rules similar to UFC?




Swinford was a Vet who developed the "Swinford bandogge".  1/2 Pitt 1/2 Mastiffe. It was bred to be the ultimate home defense K9, but Swinford would only use Pitt tested stock. I believe he attended fights and
gave attention to the animals. He was in close contact w/ well know Dog fighters before it was a crime.
His Most famous Dog was Named Bantu. His fights are well recorded.

Breeding stock from some of these lines is very valuable.
http://americanpitdog.com/_wsn/page2.html
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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2007, 06:45:39 PM »

some of these comments are just absurd.  it makes me wonder if some people actually know what takes place at a dog fight.  stop making any comparisons to boxing, ufc, ect. because it is ridiculous.
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« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2007, 07:11:18 PM »

some of these comments are just absurd.  it makes me wonder if some people actually know what takes place at a dog fight.  stop making any comparisons to boxing, ufc, ect. because it is ridiculous.

Click the Links and learn what Dog Fighting is and was about.
So, YOU HAVE BEEN TO A DOG FIGHT? IS THAT NOT A FELONY?

You act like you Know so much.....

Don't just say something is ridiculous. Please use logic. I put a very precise comparison of fighting dogs and humans.
I and others inquired if YOUR KIND thinks it would be OK if animals were fought to the same standards a human fighters. THAT IS  the gist of this thread...
State your thoughts with well reasoned logic. If you are capable.
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« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2007, 07:48:11 PM »



Click the Links and learn what Dog Fighting is and was about.
So, YOU HAVE BEEN TO A DOG FIGHT? IS THAT NOT A FELONY?


You act like you Know so much.....


Don't just say something is ridiculous. Please use logic. I put a very precise comparison of fighting dogs and humans.
I and others inquired if YOUR KIND thinks it would be OK if animals were fought to the same standards a human fighters. THAT IS  the gist of this thread...
State your thoughts with well reasoned logic. If you are capable.





no i have not been to a dog fight but i am very familiar with what takes place not only at the fight but what goes into training them to fight.

i have already stated in this thread why the comparison of dog fighting to boxing, ufc is ridiculous.

i do not think its ok to fight dogs under any circumstances.  the bottom line is still that the dog has no choice, no free will.  you can try to come up with any rules or regulations you want but it does not change that fact. dog fighting of any kind can only be brutal and inhumane.
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« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2007, 07:53:23 PM »

no i have not been to a dog fight but i am very familiar with what takes place not only at the fight but what goes into training them to fight.

i have already stated in this thread why the comparison of dog fighting to boxing, ufc is ridiculous.

i do not think its ok to fight dogs under any circumstances.  the bottom line is still that the dog has no choice, no free will.  you can try to come up with any rules or regulations you want but it does not change that fact. dog fighting of any kind can only be brutal and inhumane.

The dog can, and some do, chose not to fight. They Kill those Dogs. But the Dogs dont know that.
Winners were bred. THAT is still the Genetic make up of All True Pitts.

So, youve never been to a fight but you know all about it.... Roll Eyes
Thats called talking out your ass in my parts.

Read up Dumbass.
http://www.classicpitbulls.com/museum.htm

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« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2007, 07:56:13 PM »

I guess no one watched the video I posted on page 2?
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« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2007, 08:14:18 PM »

The dog can, and some do, chose not to fight. They Kill those Dogs. But the Dogs dont know that.
Winners were bred. THAT is still the Genetic make up of All True Pitts.

So, youve never been to a fight but you know all about it.... Roll Eyes
Thats called talking out your ass in my parts.

Read up Dumbass.
http://www.classicpitbulls.com/museum.htm


so since i have never and would never attend a pitbull fight i cant know all about it? Roll Eyes

i am a advocate for the true apbt so i make it my business to know such things. i am very familiar with the history of the breed and all other issues regarding pitbulls.

i do find it comical that you call me a dumbass yet you continue to misspell pitbull in every one of your posts.
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« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2007, 04:07:43 AM »

Interesting question.

For those of you who think humans and animals are equal:

Would it be ok if the dogs were stopped before any serious harm were done?

Ie, if the dogs were supervised under rules similar to UFC?

You REALLY don't listen do you?  The comments were made that no living being should be tortured or purposely treated cruelly.   I think animals and humans ARE equal in that regard.  Is that really that difficult to understand?  I have only said that 3-4 times now?  I don't think anyone has stated that they are a vegetarian so obviously human needs are considered above animals.  It is not a need to torture or treat something cruel just to do it.  I think it lowers the human race to say "you need to be sadistic? that's not right but go do it on an animal if you have to".  It is wrong, and if we really do have the higher thinking that we claim we do, we would see that it is wrong in many many ways.  Can you grasp that?

 And no it would not be ok.  What is serious harm?  Considering their means of fighting is teeth how could you have a fight without serious harm?  Plus you are talking animals here, why purposely train animals to fight?  Why try and make them animal aggressive?  Doesn't sound safe for the public.  Since humans are supposed to have a higher learning sense  Roll Eyes, we are not concerned if a boxer or UFC fighter is on the street.
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« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2007, 05:21:22 AM »

You REALLY don't listen do you?  The comments were made that no living being should be tortured or purposely treated cruelly.   I think animals and humans ARE equal in that regard.  Is that really that difficult to understand?  I have only said that 3-4 times now?
 
 Can you grasp that?

 And no it would not be ok.  What is serious harm?  


Can YOU Grasp THIS - Animals and Humans are not equals. The fact we kill and eat Animals ought to make that clear to even the simplest mind.

Killing and/ or  Tortureing a Human is a much worse thing. Grasp That.

If Killing every one of these dogs saved even a few kids faces, it would be a Great trade.

At least the Dog Fighters have the sense to chain and contain their animals, unlike every Dumbass Dog Owner that says.....
     " Oh, He never showed any agression before, I NEVER THOUGHT he'd do THAT"  - After a Mauling!

Thats No different than saying -  " I didnt think the gun was loaded".

Key Point - They both Didnt think!

These dogs were bred to fight for centuries. Its deep in their make up. Suggesting they are MADE that way by the owner is stupid. Why dont they fight Labs and Great Danes and Collies then?

Boxing, Muay Thai, UFC, Pro wresting, Even Pro Football are very violent and extract a heavy toll on the human combatants.  No we dont kill the Human Losers today, But those days are in our past too.

Homicide is way different than killing a animal. 
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« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2007, 05:52:38 AM »

Can YOU Grasp THIS - Animals and Humans are not equals. The fact we kill and eat Animals ought to make that clear to even the simplest mind.

Killing and/ or  Tortureing a Human is a much worse thing. Grasp That.


No, both show a disregard for life and compassion.

  You can lower yourself and say torturing one living thing over another is better, but I will not.  If man is the higher species then we should be able to grasp that. Once you say torture and cruelty is fine, you have lowered yourself beneath animals. 

  Tell me, what has man done for the Earth?  Has man contributed anything? What is man's purpose?  I see no purpose for man.  Man destroys and wastes everything he comes in contact with.  Man is at the top of the food chain, but even that is not needed on Earth.  Animals like sharks and lions that are at the top in the animal food chain have a purpose, they eat the old and sick and cull numbers of animals keeping a balance so everything may go on. Man has to breed animals to survive so we don't even have the purpose of keeping a balance in nature.  Man has caused extinction of many animals either by over hunting, destroying habitats, or by introducing non native species that then kill off the native species.  How much scrambling has man done to try and fix it's mistakes?  Man wages war on each other over anything.  You don't see animals going to war on each other to the point that they have destroyed their homelands and are barely surviving.

  Seems like man has done a lot with it's ability for higher thinking.
   Roll Eyes

  Man is expendable on this planet, animals are not, I think that puts one higher than the other.   Smiley

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« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2007, 05:55:41 AM »

And btw Trab, nice quoting and leaving out a key point in my quote. 

Quote
You REALLY don't listen do you?  The comments were made that no living being should be tortured or purposely treated cruelly.   I think animals and humans ARE equal in that regard.  Is that really that difficult to understand?  I have only said that 3-4 times now?  I don't think anyone has stated that they are a vegetarian so obviously human needs are considered above animals.


Can YOU Grasp THIS - Animals and Humans are not equals. The fact we kill and eat Animals ought to make that clear to even the simplest mind.

   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2007, 07:28:16 AM »


 Tell me, what has man done for the Earth? Has man contributed anything? What is man's purpose?  I see no purpose for man.  Man destroys and wastes everything he comes in contact with.  Man is at the top of the food chain, but even that is not needed on Earth.  Animals like sharks and lions that are at the top in the animal food chain have a purpose, they eat the old and sick and cull numbers of animals keeping a balance so everything may go on. Man has to breed animals to survive so we don't even have the purpose of keeping a balance in nature.  Man has caused extinction of many animals either by over hunting, destroying habitats, or by introducing non native species that then kill off the native species.  How much scrambling has man done to try and fix it's mistakes?  Man wages war on each other over anything.  You don't see animals going to war on each other to the point that they have destroyed their homelands and are barely surviving.

  Seems like man has done a lot with it's ability for higher thinking.
   Roll Eyes

  Man is expendable on this planet, animals are not, I think that puts one higher than the other.   Smiley



Flower this series of questions and comments are worthy of their own thread I just don't with forum they should go on but you have made some thought provoking points worthy of discussion. Especially the "I see no purpose for man" comment, I feel your passion but I really would like to know exactly what you mean here and what does this say about what you think about yourself! But I think this should be discussed on or in another board and thread. What do you think shall we go for it?
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« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2007, 07:49:23 AM »

Flower this series of questions and comments are worthy of their own thread I just don't with forum they should go on but you have made some thought provoking points worthy of discussion. Especially the "I see no purpose for man" comment, I feel your passion but I really would like to know exactly what you mean here and what does this say about what you think about yourself! But I think this should be discussed on or in another board and thread. What do you think shall we go for it?

 I thought about putting that on the General Board but wanted it to be read in this thread.  I will copy it and start a thread on the General Board.  It would be interesting to read other peoples comments.

In my "I see no purpose in man" comment I mean that man shouldn't really hold itself that much higher than other animals on this planet.  If you look at having a purpose on this planet, man has none.  We have abused our higher status IMO. We have done nothing to deserver a higher status except to be made with higher brain and thinking capabilities which don't seem to have been put to good use in a lot of cases. 

  Man may have had a purpose way back when, the Indians are a good example of man LIVING with the world and all it's inhabitants, and not just LIVING OFF the world.  Man is a parasite basically. 

When I read about the horrors man inflicts upon man, along with cruelty to other creatures, part of me is disgusted to be called a human.  I don't fear animals in this world, I fear the people in this world.  And when I think that I could have a crime committed against me by a person, against the thought of having an animal attack me, which one is more horrible from a humanity point?  The one done by the thinking, feeling, higher creature, or the lower animal? 
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« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2007, 08:10:51 AM »



  Man may have had a purpose way back when, the Indians are a good example of man LIVING with the world and all it's inhabitants, and not just LIVING OFF the world.

Indians?

Perhaps you're referring to native Americans.

In that case, I'd like to see you back up the statement about them living with the world.

If that was the case back then, why aren't they doing it anymore, I wonder?

It's been shown again and again to be a myth.
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« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2007, 08:13:20 AM »

Indians?

Perhaps you're referring to native Americans.

In that case, I'd like to see you back up the statement about them living with the world.

If that was the case back then, why aren't they doing it anymore, I wonder?

It's been shown again and again to be a myth.

they plundered the Earth?  Yes, Native Americans would be the PC term.    Seems if I remember my history correctly they were killed off or had to adjust to "the white mans" way of living. 

 Can you name one purpose for man?
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« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2007, 08:24:53 AM »

they plundered the Earth?  Yes, Native Americans would be the PC term.    Seems if I remember my history correctly they were killed off or had to adjust to "the white mans" way of living. 

 Can you name one purpose for man?


Damn, I can't believe I am doing this again but Iagree with you! I live in Maryland and the Native Americans here have been thoroughly educated on what happened between their ancestors and those that deceived them for selfish gain. Shame!
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