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Author Topic: Brutality: Animals or Humans, where do we draw the line?  (Read 5272 times)
Hustle Man
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« on: August 22, 2007, 09:51:54 AM »

Is there a difference between killing dogs or chickens that don't perform in the fight arena (FYI I am against Dog fighting and Cock fighting etc.) or killing a big buck for his antlers or even snatching a fish out of water then throwing it back with a hole in its mouth or body?

True MVick screwed up bad and he should pay his debt but what about those hunters that kill just for trophies or sports where human beings are matched against one another often maiming and even sometimes killing their opp  e.g., boxing, ufc, Football, La Crosse and Hockey etc.? Why is MVick's situation any different?

IMHO, boxing and UFC is the human version of Dog fighting and/or Cock fighting; Should these sports be illegal from a "brutality" point of view?

You view on this.
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 10:08:45 AM »

I don't see any difference between dog fighting and cock fighting.  Both are cruel and barbaric and give the animals no choice but to try and kill each other. I also think bullfighting is cruel and a pussy 'sport'. 

Human boxing is different.  A person has a CHOICE to do it or not, their are rules in place, and it is not to the death.  People are also given proper health care and not  executed if they perform poorly. 
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Hustle Man
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 10:43:05 AM »

I don't see any difference between dog fighting and cock fighting.  Both are cruel and barbaric and give the animals no choice but to try and kill each other. I also think bullfighting is cruel and a pussy 'sport'. 

Human boxing is different.  A person has a CHOICE to do it or not, their are rules in place, and it is not to the death.  People are also given proper health care and not  executed if they perform poorly. 


Well, my point was the issue of brutality, choice or no! I think its all hypocrisy! Practicing brutality for monetary gains should be illegal whether at the expense of animals or humans, especially the latter!
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Al-Gebra
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 10:49:01 AM »


A gutshot deer probably suffers as much as any of the dogs did at Vick's hands.  The difference is not in the animal's pain, but in the human's intention.  Most people do not intentionally gutshoot deer . . . they want to put an end to the animal quickly, relatively painlessly, and preserve the meat . . . Michael vick knew that what he was doing would inflict needless pain, and it was probably his intention to "punish" the animal . . . his lack of a legitimate purpose reveals his sociopathic inclination.

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Al-Gebra
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2007, 10:50:41 AM »

Fishing's just cruel to the fish, any way you slice it . . . that's why some folks throw the thrashing fish in the cooler as quickly as they can . . . I love fishing though . . . thanks for trying to ruin it for me.
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 10:51:22 AM »

Well, my point was the issue of brutality, choice or no! I think its all hypocrisy! Practicing brutality for monetary gains should be illegal whether at the expense of animals or humans, especially the latter!

But it is a big difference when a lack of choice to participate is involved, to compare boxing to dog or cockfighting is not an equal comparison IMO.
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2007, 11:10:44 AM »

I used to box and kickbox and I've fought full contact martial arts----I did it by choice because I was a stupid redneck hillbilly who didn't care if bones got broken.   I did it becuase I wanted to.  No one made me and no one killed me if I got the shit kicked out of me.  thats the big difference between animal and human fighting. 


As far as hunting goes...I grew up hunting.   In many cases the only way my family had food was if we shot it (I come from a poor farm family).  I was taught one shot, one kill and use every bit of the animal if you are going to kill it.   its that simple.  To me there is a degree of respect conveyed to the animal----and a humane death.   I dont' hunt now to get a trophy.  I can go immobilize something at work and take pictures of it, then wake it back up if I want to do that.

Fishing....  I haven't been fishing in years where I actually caught something.  I really cant comment on it.   
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Hustle Man
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 12:21:32 PM »

But it is a big difference when a lack of choice to participate is involved, to compare boxing to dog or cockfighting is not an equal comparison IMO.

Flower have you ever seen an organized dog or cock fight? I have and I have boxed before (just to stay in shape mainly) but the animal or human athletes (for lack of a better term) have two things in common; both are trained to fight and defeat their opponent and both are given something to fight for e.g., food, money, exaltation... whatever the case may be I think its the same.

These Pit bulls or Bull Terriers (Bull Terriers are ferocious when trained to fight) anyway have to be trained just like humans so my point is just because some guy chooses to be a boxer or some piece of shit; like many here in the states, teaches his dog (whatever the breed) to fight is brutal and wrong! Again my point is Brutality of this nature should be outlawed!

I used to box and kickbox and I've fought full contact martial arts----I did it by choice because I was a stupid redneck hillbilly who didn't care if bones got broken.   I did it becuase I wanted to.  No one made me Why do it, what was your prize?and no one killed me if I got the shit kicked out of me. It's illegal to kill another human being so I should hope not!-Ok you have been lucky and not all dogs die in the ring either but remember those that have died in the ring, e.g., (Du Ku Kim in 1982) its brutality and it makes money for the topheads and any one who participates is like one of those Dogs in Vick's fighting ring, a pawn. thats the big difference between animal and human fighting. Is Mike Vick going to jail because of the brutality inflicted upon those animals? Or is he going to jail because they didn't have the choice to participate? IMO its the same brutal arena with possibilities of death as the end result. Again I say it's all hypocrisy; some would say, its unfortunate that Du Ku Kim died in the ring but it was his choice, dumbass should have ducked, but you better not make that pit bull fight or you ass will go to jail. I think we have put animal life above human life! BTW I love animals especially dogs I just think its all hypocrisy!


As far as hunting goes...I grew up hunting.   In many cases the only way my family had food was if we shot it (I come from a poor farm family).  I was taught one shot, one kill and use every bit of the animal if you are going to kill it.   its that simple.  To me there is a degree of respect conveyed to the animal----and a humane death. I don't have a problem with this, killing for food.   I dont' hunt now to get a trophy. You mean you used to trophy hunt? I can go immobilize something at work and take pictures of it, then wake it back up if I want to do that. I don't see the point in this but thats totally different I think IMO

Fishing....  I haven't been fishing in years where I actually caught something.  I really cant comment on it.  I love to fish but only for food that whole mounting carcases irritatates me
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2007, 12:31:54 PM »

I don't see any difference between dog fighting and cock fighting.  Both are cruel and barbaric and give the animals no choice but to try and kill each other. I also think bullfighting is cruel and a pussy 'sport'. 
 


i agree both are cruel and barbaric but i think dog fighting takes it to another level because of the place dogs have in our society.  not only because many consider their dogs to be a close member of their familiy, but dogs have been of service and worked closely with humans for a long enough time that i think they have earned certain rights.
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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2007, 12:40:46 PM »

Quote
Is Mike Vick going to jail because of the brutality inflicted upon those animals? Or is he going to jail because they didn't have the choice to participate? IMO its the same brutal arena with possibilities of death as the end result. Again I say it's all hypocrisy; some would say, its unfortunate that Du Ku Kim died in the ring but it was his choice, dumbass should have ducked, but you better not make that pit bull fight or you ass will go to jail. I think we have put animal life above human life! BTW I love animals especially dogs I just think its all hypocrisy!

He's going to jail because he broke the law, actually a few laws.

Hypocrisy would be if we took 2 people and put them in a ring and told them to fight or else, but then found a problem with doing that with animals. 

 I think if you have a problem with boxing or other sports you think are brutal you should try and do something to end them, and not be comparing them to animal brutality. 
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« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2007, 12:42:49 PM »

i agree both are cruel and barbaric but i think dog fighting takes it to another level because of the place dogs have in our society.  not only because many consider their dogs to be a close member of their familiy, but dogs have been of service and worked closely with humans for a long enough time that i think they have earned certain rights.

I get what you are saying but I don't see it as another level.  Both show cruelty, lack of compassion, and a dulled sense of what should be shocking.
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2007, 12:48:02 PM »

Flower have you ever seen an organized dog or cock fight? I have and I have boxed before (just to stay in shape mainly) but the animal or human athletes (for lack of a better term) have two things in common; both are trained to fight and defeat their opponent and both are given something to fight for e.g., food, money, exaltation... whatever the case may be I think its the same.

These Pit bulls or Bull Terriers (Bull Terriers are ferocious when trained to fight) anyway have to be trained just like humans so my point is just because some guy chooses to be a boxer or some piece of shit; like many here in the states, teaches his dog (whatever the breed) to fight is brutal and wrong! Again my point is Brutality of this nature should be outlawed!

i dont get why some people want to make these comparisons.  personally i find them to be ridiculous.  i mean if you support vick just come out and say you support him.  boxers and ufc guys train to fight by their own free will while dogs do not have that choice.  dogs do not choose to be shot up with drugs, fed gun powder, and be tied down to heavy chains.  if a ufc guy loses a fight he is not shot, electorcuted or hung.  the brutality that takes place at these dog fights cant be compared.
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2007, 01:02:04 PM »

Flower have you ever seen an organized dog or cock fight? I have and I have boxed before (just to stay in shape mainly) but the animal or human athletes (for lack of a better term) have two things in common; both are trained to fight and defeat their opponent and both are given something to fight for e.g., food, money, exaltation... whatever the case may be I think its the same.

These Pit bulls or Bull Terriers (Bull Terriers are ferocious when trained to fight) anyway have to be trained just like humans so my point is just because some guy chooses to be a boxer or some piece of shit; like many here in the states, teaches his dog (whatever the breed) to fight is brutal and wrong! Again my point is Brutality of this nature should be outlawed!




 The dogs are given NOTHING for fighting except that maybe they will live another day!   And they have no choice!!!  And retirement is death!

 Dogfighting is already illegal, if you want human boxing/fighting banned then start doing something about it.


I personally don't care for boxing and the like, but at least the participants can decide to do it and when to stop.
 
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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2007, 01:06:09 PM »

  Man is the most sadistic animal on the earth,also the most wasteful and destructive,  better to take it out on willing participants (ourselves) than others. 
 
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2007, 02:54:50 PM »

i dont get why some people want to make these comparisons.  personally i find them to be ridiculous.  That's your perogativei mean if you support vick just come out and say you support him.  I don't support Michael Vick, I commented on that earlier.boxers and ufc guys train to fight by their own free will while dogs do not have that choice.  dogs do not choose to be shot up with drugs, fed gun powder, and be tied down to heavy chains.  if a ufc guy loses a fight he is not shot, electorcuted or hung.  the brutality that takes place at these dog fights cant be compared.


 
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2007, 03:58:28 PM »



Dude, please answer some other way.  Its virtually impossible to address what you are posting (ie respond) the way you are doing it. 
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2007, 04:04:21 PM »



 The dogs are given NOTHING for fighting except that maybe they will live another day!   And they have no choice!!!  And retirement is death!

 Dogfighting is already illegal, if you want human boxing/fighting banned then start doing something about it.


I personally don't care for boxing and the like, but at least the participants can decide to do it and when to stop.
 


Yeah, i boxed/kickboxed/did the martial arts thing because I could.   I had people who told me I couldnt, so I set out to prove them wrong.  I wouldn't say I "Like to fight" but I'm not going to back down if you put me in a corner.   Thats the same basic reason I'm a powerlifter today.....to see what I can do.  Will I ever squat 1000?  Who knows, but you can damned sure bet I'm going to try until I can't try anymore.  I never won any appreciable money and I never won any medals or prizes doing the boxing/kickboxing/martial arts stuff.  I did beat the shit out of a few people and I got the shit beat out of me a few times.   In retrospect, nearly 20 years later, I probably wouldn't do it.   Back then, I was a stupid kid. 
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2007, 04:05:24 PM »

  Man is the most sadistic animal on the earth,also the most wasteful and destructive,  better to take it out on willing participants (ourselves) than others. 
 
I agree with this. 
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2007, 04:15:37 PM »


A gutshot deer probably suffers as much as any of the dogs did at Vick's hands.  The difference is not in the animal's pain, but in the human's intention.  Most people do not intentionally gutshoot deer . . . they want to put an end to the animal quickly, relatively painlessly, and preserve the meat . . . Michael vick knew that what he was doing would inflict pain, and it was probably his intention to "punish" the animal . . . revealing his sociopathic inclination.



Those who compares hunting to animal fights are uninformed at best, and in worst case scenario, candidates for Dumb MF of the year.
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Hustle Man
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2007, 05:13:17 PM »

Those who compares hunting to animal fights are uninformed at best, and in worst case scenario, candidates for Dumb MF of the year.

No need to insult any here, this is just a discussion! If you don't agree fine but why disrespect someone else's opinion or comment.


  Man is the most sadistic animal on the earth,also the most wasteful and destructive,  better to take it out on willing participants (ourselves) than others. 
 

I agree with you as well Flower.
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2007, 05:53:27 PM »

Dude, please answer some other way.  Its virtually impossible to address what you are posting (ie respond) the way you are doing it. 
sorry I was trying to answer JMT1's specific comments.

My main purpose was to point various types of brutality where humans are put in the same arena as animals or vice versa and I also added where do we draw the line on brutality? What is brutality and what is not brutality morally is my question?

I DO NOT support Michael Vick in any shape way or form in this situation although I thought he was exciting to watch on the gridiron. As I commented earlier he should pay his debt to society just as any other felon would have to because they broke the law (unregulated gambling and mistreatment of animals).

If gambling was not involved would that have change the importance of this particular case?

I know we can only speculate but look at the past, when has this been such a widely publicized issue? The media has spent more time on this than abused and missng children we see sex offenders get off everyday because of legal technicalities and kills or rape again but kill an animal and your ass is grass its all BULLSHITT!

Here in the states on one of the nature channels (discovery channnel I think) they have shows about dog fighting task forces and thats all they do is track down dog fighting rings but those cases never make the big national news networks. If dog fighting was such a big deal why did they wait until a celeb athlete was accused? This is why I say it's hypocrosy I have a hard time thinking its all about the dogs or what they go through in these gruesome situations (again which I despise). I think MONEY is the bigger issue here (Not race at all) Vick broke the one law you don't break in America and that is DO NOT MAKE MONEY that the government can't tax and or regulate. We could go down many rabbit holes on this issue of whats brutal and whats not based on choices i.e., (religion, abortion, animal euthanizations ect.)

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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2007, 04:50:33 AM »

  Man is the most sadistic animal on the earth,also the most wasteful and destructive,  better to take it out on willing participants (ourselves) than others. 
 

Don't compare humans to animals.

And I disagree.

It's better if humans torture animals than if they torture other humans.

It's definitely sad if animals are tortured, but it's still better than if humans get hurt and traumatized.

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« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2007, 06:20:51 AM »

Is there a difference between killing dogs or chickens that don't perform in the fight arena (FYI I am against Dog fighting and Cock fighting etc.) or killing a big buck for his antlers or even snatching a fish out of water then throwing it back with a hole in its mouth or body?

True MVick screwed up bad and he should pay his debt but what about those hunters that kill just for trophies or sports where human beings are matched against one another often maiming and even sometimes killing their opp  e.g., boxing, ufc, Football, La Crosse and Hockey etc.? Why is MVick's situation any different?

IMHO, boxing and UFC is the human version of Dog fighting and/or Cock fighting; Should these sports be illegal from a "brutality" point of view?

You view on this.


Don't think you could force humans to fight to the death, torture and kill kids who where not mean enough to fight, all while running an illgal gambling ring and only get 18 months in jail for it.

Btw ufc fighting is not till the death. Pretty sure no ones guts are torn out in a ufc fight. I have yet to see a ufc combatant or boxer have his face torn off and continue to fight. Happens all the time in dog fighting rings.
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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2007, 07:02:13 AM »

Don't compare humans to animals.

And I disagree.

It's better if humans torture animals than if they torture other humans.

It's definitely sad if animals are tortured, but it's still better than if humans get hurt and traumatized.



  Maybe you should pay attention better.

This is about comparing dog fighting to boxing.  Boxers have a choice to fight or not.

 And look at what I wrote:

  better to take it out on willing participants (ourselves) than others


  Sometimes I think the only reason you post on this board is to start stuff.

 
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2007, 07:04:55 AM »

Don't compare humans to animals.

Humans ARE an animal.

  But you are right, animals are better than humans in some cases, so no comparison. 


Quote
It's definitely sad if animals are tortured, but it's still better than if humans get hurt and traumatized.

I strongly disagree.  Neither is right, and I won't find one more acceptable than the other. 
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