Censorship rising in the U.S.

[Tre]

Why? 

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/09/andrew_meyer_deserved_to_be_ta.php

[Hedgehog]

What a bitchy motherfcuking asshole.

It's guys like that who gives more argument for those who want a police state, a secluded society.

Whatever happened to "Using your rights, not abuse them"?

Tool.

[MB_722]

To an extent I agree with you but the security could have handled that much better.

I can also see people closer to the left exploiting this.

Either way there shoud have been better communication to contain the situation.

[Hedgehog]

To an extent I agree with you but the security could have handled that much better.

I can also see people closer to the left exploiting this.

Either way there shoud have been better communication to contain the situation.

My point is really this: We shouldn't need big security at events like this.

And I agree with you, one security guy, or perhaps even a seminar administrator, should've approached the guy, and told him quietly to follow him out.

The wrestling shit was just stupid, epic display of security guards lusting for action.

But I gotta say, I am disappointed in the guy with the mic too, he just went in there to fcuk up a question session with a politician.

I am of the opinion that the public and the politicians needs to be close, and as little distance as possible between them.

This asshole fcuks that up.

We need more of instant meetings between politicians and the public.

It's time to start treating our politicians like humans, and stop creating situations where they have to seclude themselves from the world.

[MB_722]

I agree he screws it up for others and is a dick.
Even if he was talking about BS. Kerry would have been able to extinguish that himself, they could have moved on immediately. By the sounds of it Kerry was looking to answer those questions. Then the guy just got cut off.

It was all a show. He should have just shutup.

[kh300]

And I agree with you, one security guy, or perhaps even a seminar administrator, should've approached the guy, and told him quietly to follow him out.

what if before the start they warned the audience that this type of action wasn't allowed. what if they warned them that this behavior will result in this type of action? those officers responded quickly, and it looked like someone tipped them off as to what they had to do, like they had a plan of action if this happend.. he was only getting escorted out, and he got himself arrested..

[Tre]

All the cops involved should be disciplined and should be forced to pay damages to the kid.

[Dos Equis]

Why? 

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/09/andrew_meyer_deserved_to_be_ta.php

Good Lord.  What an idiot.  He resisted arrest.  They should have Rodney Kinged that fool.  He was obviously trying to create a conflict. 

At a minimum he should be slapped for screaming like a little girl.  Geeze.  That was awful.   

[Stark]

Okay let's see folks... yes he asked many questions and was in general not very polite to Kerry but in my opinion it looks extremely bad on your so called "free" country if you can get tasered and arrested for what he did.
I know this would be out of question in Germany or Europe even in Britain.... absolutely out of question... and for the once who applaud this...wait until it happens to somebody who shares the same believe you have and you see the tied turn pretty fast believe me that.

An in all maybe yes I believe turning him off was ok since he wouldn't stop asking questions and kept interrupting Kerry but all in all it hardend my believe that the US is not very "free" as they want everybody make believe.

On the contrariety it was funny how they turned his microphone off as soon as he asked the Dredded Scull and Bones Questions 

[Dos Equis]

Okay let's see folks... yes he asked many questions and was in general not very polite to Kerry but in my opinion it looks extremely bad on your so called "free" country if you can get tasered and arrested for what he did.
I know this would be out of question in Germany or Europe even in Britain.... absolutely out of question... and for the once who applaud this...wait until it happens to somebody who shares the same believe you have and you see the tied turn pretty fast believe me that.

An in all maybe yes I believe turning him off was ok since he wouldn't stop asking questions and kept interrupting Kerry but all in all it hardend my believe that the US is not very "free" as they want everybody make believe.

On the contrariety it was funny how they turned his microphone off as soon as he asked the Dredded Scull and Bones Questions 

The way it works in this country is if a police officer gives you an order, you obey it.  If you don't, you suffer the consequences.  If you believe you have been wrongfully arrested, use the legal process as remedy.  Resisting arrest is not an option. 

That numbskull was obviously trying to create a conflict.  He got what he deserved. 

[Stark]

The way it works in this country is if a police officer gives you an order, you obey it.  If you don't, you suffer the consequences.  If you believe you have been wrongfully arrested, use the legal process as remedy.  Resisting arrest is not an option. 

That numbskull was obviously trying to create a conflict.  He got what he deserved. 

So what you are saying is Blind obedience is the way to go forward? Next thing you're going to say is that forming your own opinion is a dangerous thing.

[Thin Lizzy]

So what you are saying is Blind obedience is the way to go forward? Next thing you're going to say is that forming your own opinion is a dangerous thing.

He was at the podium to ask a question, not fillibuster and be an obnoxious asshole. I'm no John Kerry fan, but even he deserved to be treated like a human being.

While I think the rent-a-cops were out of line by tasering the guy, and, IMO, will be disciplined for doing so, the guy left them no choice but to escort him out.

[Hedgehog]

He was at the podium to ask a question, not fillibuster and be an obnoxious asshole. I'm no John Kerry fan, but even he deserved to be treated like a human being.

While I think the rent-a-cops were out of line by tasering the guy, and, IMO, will be disciplined for doing so, the guy left them no choice but to escort him out.

Agreed.

The guy were out of line. But so were the security retards.

On a macro level, you could also say that our society has become rougher, and more violent.

This probably would never have happened 25-30 years ago.

It's hard to point out one single reason, but Robert Putnam's theories on the lost social capital is very interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Putnam

Try reading his book Bowling Alone:
http://www.bowlingalone.com/

Putnam on Social Capital (taken from bowlingalone.com):

SOCIAL CAPITAL PRIMER

The central premise of social capital is that social networks have value. Social capital refers to the collective value of all "social networks" [who people know] and the inclinations that arise from these networks to do things for each other ["norms of reciprocity"].

How does social capital work?
The term social capital emphasizes not just warm and cuddly feelings, but a wide variety of quite specific benefits that flow from the trust, reciprocity, information, and cooperation associated with social networks. Social capital creates value for the people who are connected and - at least sometimes - for bystanders as well.

Social capital works through multiple channels:
- Information flows (e.g. learning about jobs, learning about candidates running for office, exchanging ideas at college, etc.) depend on social capital.
- Norms of reciprocity (mutual aid) rely on social networks. Bonding networks that connect folks who are similar sustain particularized (in-group) reciprocity. Bridging networks that connect individuals who are diverse sustain generalized reciprocity.
- Collective action depends upon social networks (e.g., the role that the black church played in the Civil Rights movement) although collective action also can foster new networks.
- Broader identities and solidarity are encouraged by social networks that help translate an "I" mentality into a "we" mentality.

What are some examples of social capital?
When a group of neighbors informally keep an eye on one another's homes, that's social capital in action. When a tightly knit community of Hassidic Jews trade diamonds without having to test each gem for purity, that's social capital in action. Barn-raising on the frontier was social capital in action, and so too are e-mail exchanges among members of a cancer support group. Social capital can be found in friendship networks, neighborhoods, churches, schools, bridge clubs, civic associations, and even bars. The motto in Cheers "where everybody knows your name" captures one important aspect of social capital.

[Stark]

Try reading his book Bowling Alone:
http://www.bowlingalone.com/

I loved Bowling alone, I don't agree with everything I read in that particular book 100% but it's very very good...chilling.


http://truman.missouri.edu/uploads/Publications/Scott%20and%20Johnson%20Online%20Communities.pdf

[Dos Equis]

So what you are saying is Blind obedience is the way to go forward? Next thing you're going to say is that forming your own opinion is a dangerous thing.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  That's actually the law.  A cop gives you an order to leave, you leave.  A cop tells you you're under arrest put your hands behind your back, you put your hands behind your back.  If you choose to disobey those orders, they are permitted to escalate matters.  You can call that "blind obedience" if you want, but it's absolutely necessary for cops to do their job.  You can't have citizens deciding whether or not they want to be arrested. 

If someone believes they were wrongfully arrested, the courts, city councils, and police commissions can deal with that issue. 

[ieffinhatecardio]

Why? 

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/09/andrew_meyer_deserved_to_be_ta.php

I'm not quite sure how you're getting censorship out of that. The security guards certainly didn't need to tazer him but he needed to be removed and he was resisting.

He'll file a lawsuit and cash a fat check.

[Stark]

That's exactly what I'm saying.  That's actually the law.  A cop gives you an order to leave, you leave.  A cop tells you you're under arrest put your hands behind your back, you put your hands behind your back.  If you choose to disobey those orders, they are permitted to escalate matters.  You can call that "blind obedience" if you want, but it's absolutely necessary for cops to do their job.  You can't have citizens deciding whether or not they want to be arrested. 

If someone believes they were wrongfully arrested, the courts, city councils, and police commissions can deal with that issue. 

I would have no problem with that what so ever if I could believe that every cop out there has only the good fortune of his citizens in mind, but there are too many cranky cops out there who's wife have just divorced them or who have to pull a double shift and they simply over react and actually like to take thinks a little further to let some steam off.
You know what I see here in Dublin a lot? Cops talking to people, I have seen a bangarda actually talk so long to somebody until he just said OK I go with you, no handcuffs necessary no taser etc, it took her a little longer but she did not had any trouble and came accross like somebody the law abiting citizens can trust.
 I'm not saying it's the "only" way to go and with your out of control gun culture I can see why cops in the states are quit nervous, but blind obedience is NEVER EVER a good things, look how far it has brought us germans, we tested blind obedience to near total destruction.

And this is were the core problem lies, some of your cops come accross similar to Judge Dredd somebody who will under all circumstances throw the book at you, insted of tasering people you should start getting the convidence of the lawabiting citizens back since you can only win the fight agains crime with them on your side, but atm I think a lot of people rather call their local milita than the cops for protection.
Why do you think so many people see the need to arm themself? If they would trust the cops or the Police Department were ever they life in the states than they maybe wouldn't see the need to arm themself.

[kh300]

the cops did 2 things wrong.. #1 if you need to escort someone out, the last thing you want to do is to grab them.. as soon as you touch someone they get out of control. #2 on one hand they shouldn't have needed to use the tazer. there were what, 4 officers? and they couldnt get him under control? on the other hand, they had no choice because they were a group of pussies.

had that been me, he would have resisted for 5 seconds before he was on the ground handcuffed, another 10 seconds i would of pulled him immediately out of the room.

as far as these guys being prosecuted, no chance in hell. they were doing there job, and did nothing wrong, just following orders. they could have handled the situation better, but that is by no means a grounds for punishment.. but i bet they get some type of leave since this made it into the news

[Stark]

as far as these guys being prosecuted, no chance in hell. they were doing there job, and did nothing wrong, just following orders

Mengele, Sommer, Karl Dönitz only followed orders as well

[Dos Equis]

I would have no problem with that what so ever if I could believe that every cop out there has only the good fortune of his citizens in mind, but there are too many cranky cops out there who's wife have just divorced them or who have to pull a double shift and they simply over react and actually like to take thinks a little further to let some steam off.
You know what I see here in Dublin a lot? Cops talking to people, I have seen a bangarda actually talk so long to somebody until he just said OK I go with you, no handcuffs necessary no taser etc, it took her a little longer but she did not had any trouble and came accross like somebody the law abiting citizens can trust.
 I'm not saying it's the "only" way to go and with your out of control gun culture I can see why cops in the states are quit nervous, but blind obedience is NEVER EVER a good things, look how far it has brought us germans, we tested blind obedience to near total destruction.

And this is were the core problem lies, some of your cops come accross similar to Judge Dredd somebody who will under all circumstances throw the book at you, insted of tasering people you should start getting the convidence of the lawabiting citizens back since you can only win the fight agains crime with them on your side, but atm I think a lot of people rather call their local milita than the cops for protection.
Why do you think so many people see the need to arm themself? If they would trust the cops or the Police Department were ever they life in the states than they maybe wouldn't see the need to arm themself.

I agree there are bad apples.  Every profession has them.  But what are you suggesting is the alternative?  That citizens decide whether or not they want to comply with a cop's orders? 

[Stark]

I agree there are bad apples.  Every profession has them.  But what are you suggesting is the alternative?  That citizens decide whether or not they want to comply with a cop's orders? 

Absolutely not but here is how I see an arrest should be made if the Citizen is not under heavy and visible influence of Drugs and or especially Alcohol:

1: Cop talks to the man/woman to come over to keep his hands not hidden.
2: Cops asks the man/woman if she minds to be searches explaing to her/him why exactly he has to do the search for his own personal safety and not because he thinks he/she does look suspicious (that goes especially for the black community)
3: If search is done and no drugs weapons have been found move on to Point 4... if weapons or illegal material has been found see Point 5.
4: The Police Officer asks the man/woman to come over to the side (preferable out of the dark for her/his own protection) here the Police Office asks the citizen why he thinks he stooped him/her
5: He explains to the citizen that he will have to arrest him, but he should mention (especially if the record shows that this is the first time) that this is not the end in fact he should make the arrested person feel save, explain to him the reason why and how the procedure will take place.
6: If the arrested resist arrest the Police Officer should (if the arrested struggles) tell the arrested that if he doesn't stop resist he will have to use force to arrest him/her.
7: If the arrested keeps resisting the Police Officer should call for Backup and maybe user necessary force to get the arrested to comply.
 

[Dos Equis]

Absolutely not but here is how I see an arrest should be made if the Citizen is not under heavy and visible influence of Drugs and or especially Alcohol:

1: Cop talks to the man/woman to come over to keep his hands not hidden.
2: Cops asks the man/woman if she minds to be searches explaing to her/him why exactly he has to do the search for his own personal safety and not because he thinks he/she does look suspicious (that goes especially for the black community)
3: If search is done and no drugs weapons have been found move on to Point 4... if weapons or illegal material has been found see Point 5.
4: The Police Officer asks the man/woman to come over to the side (preferable out of the dark for her/his own protection) here the Police Office asks the citizen why he thinks he stooped him/her
5: He explains to the citizen that he will have to arrest him, but he should mention (especially if the record shows that this is the first time) that this is not the end in fact he should make the arrested person feel save, explain to him the reason why and how the procedure will take place.
6: If the arrested resist arrest the Police Officer should (if the arrested struggles) tell the arrested that if he doesn't stop resist he will have to use force to arrest him/her.
7: If the arrested keeps resisting the Police Officer should call for Backup and maybe user necessary force to get the arrested to comply.
 

Sounds reasonable to me.  That's actually pretty consistent with use of force guidelines.  Cops start with a verbal command.  They can then escalate the force depending on the situation.  They are permitted to use a level of force one step higher than being used against them. 

Also, if someone is resisting arrest, they are extremely dangerous.  They can possibly grab the cop's gun.  I think when an arrest is being made the cop's safety is paramount.  They should do whatever is necessary to get the person under control.  They don't really know whether the person is under the influence of some drug, whether the person knows martial arts, etc.

It's often the knuckleheads, like the guy in this story, who cause problems.  If he would have left after being ordered to, or put his hands behind his back like he was ordered to, he wouldn't be a youtube star right now.   

[kh300]

ive done security at these types of events.. in the beginning there is someone at the start that addresses the audience.. they say "see those big dudes over there with the guns" if you dont follow our rules to the t, they will automatically drag you out of the theatre and arrest you"..

its very obvious this kid knew what he was doing. he knew the cops were going to grab him.. as soon as the cops came near him he started screaming abuse, before anything happend.. he had it all planed out, and now he gets to gain from this because everyone is following along just like he wants.

[Hedgehog]

ive done security at these types of events.. in the beginning there is someone at the start that addresses the audience.. they say "see those big dudes over there with the guns" if you dont follow our rules to the t, they will automatically drag you out of the theatre and arrest you"..

its very obvious this kid knew what he was doing. he knew the cops were going to grab him.. as soon as the cops came near him he started screaming abuse, before anything happend.. he had it all planed out, and now he gets to gain from this because everyone is following along just like he wants.

I did some security awhile ago, worked with a very experienced guy, he told me the most important thing was to be nice to the guests, and never look hostile.

I never had to use force. As it happens, another crew worked the same place parallell with us, they were some real aggressive assholes, always looking for a reason to wrestle someone down.

I can still recall how I was intercepting a drunk girl who was freaking out, brought her to the side and managed to calm her down. Then 4 of these neanderthals comes over and lifts her up, and literally throws her to the floor, frisks her and then proceeds to carry her out.

I just stood there, shocked.

Fcuking tools.

Stark is spot on, a lot has to do with general attitude, and 99 times out of 100, you will be able to reason with people. It's much more effective.

I question these security personel being armed in the first place. They were evidently not fit to use their equipment, and probably only intimidates people even more by carrying a gun.

First grade assholes, I hope they're fired.

It's clear as a day why they couldn't make the police tests BTW...

[kh300]

Stark is spot on, a lot has to do with general attitude, and 99 times out of 100, you will be able to reason with people. It's much more effective.

so 99% of the people i deal with, do what i say and i can reason with them? lol,,not even close.

i really dont think someone who has never done the job, can give "observations" on how others should. doesnt make sense to me. im not talking to you hedge, but anyone who thinks they know without actually putting on the badge and getting on the street.