Author Topic: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?  (Read 13621 times)

Decker

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2007, 12:09:29 PM »
We know a few things:  (1) Iran has been supplying insurgents who are attacking and killing Americans, (2) they have called for the destruction of Israel (one of our allies) and the U.S. for decades, and (3) they are attempting to obtain WMDs.  So, they have effectively already attacked the U.S. and they are a threat to the U.S. 

I think whatever action we take (diplomacy, military, etc.) would have to include Iran discontinuing whatever support they are providing to insurgents and dismantling their nuclear program.   

(1)  No we don't know for certain that Iran has been supplying insurgents with weapons;

(2) If by "they" you mean the government of Iran--show me where its policy is the destruction of the US and/or Israel?  That doesn't matter though, does it?  You actually expect the US to go to war over trumped up rhetoric?

(3) Again, where's your proof Iran wanted WMDs?  I thought it was cooperating with the IAEA.

The Iranian people have every right in the world to pursue the development of nuclear power for domestic purposes.  Does that mean they will try to surreptitiously create an atomic bomb?  I don't know.

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2007, 12:11:09 PM »
Declared their national army a terror cell.  Jsut like that.  Under the Bush doctrine, we can take out any terror cell without warning.  Looks like we're going to be hitting targets to set things back there 8-10 years in their nuke program.  I support it.  I don't want another war, but I'm okay with taking out their nuke facilities and maybe getting a finger in that oil.

Also they talked about Israel bombing a syrian nuke facility on sept 6 of this year.  Looks like syria was being sneaky, playing footsie witht he n koreans on WMD materials and technical knowhow.

None of these dem candidates will either agree with - or condemn - israel attacking iran.  So maybe they'll do it for us! 

Not doubting you 240...but you got a link, i just wanted to read the whole thing..thanks

Dos Equis

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2007, 12:24:24 PM »
(1)  No we don't know for certain the Iran has been supplying insurgents with weapons;

(2) If by "they" you mean the government of Iran--show me where its policy is the destruction of the US and/or Israel?  That doesn't matter though, does it?  You actually expect the US to go to war over trumped up rhetoric?

(3) Again, where's your proof Iran wanted WMDs?  I thought it was cooperating with the IAEA.

The Iranian people have every right in the world to pursue the development of nuclear power for domestic purposes.  Does that mean they will try to surreptitiously create an atomic bomb?  I don't know.

1.  Not according to the people on the ground:

The U.S. military unveiled the first round of evidence of Iran's complicity in supplying Iraqi insurgents with sophisticated explosive devices and weaponry. An unnamed military explosive expert and a defense intelligence official, along with Coalition Spokesman Major General Bill Caldwell presented the evidence to the Baghdad press corps this morning.

"Iran is involved in supplying explosively formed projectiles or EFPs and other material," such as "explosive charges, booby traps, mortar shells of different calibers and remote controls" to detonate IEDs to "multiple" insurgent groups." Those in attendance "were shown fragments of what the defense official said were Iranian-made weapons, including one part of an EFP and tail fins from 81-mm and 60-mm mortars." "More than 120 US and coalition troops have been killed by these things, and 620 wounded. There was a significant increase in there use over the past six months," said the defense official.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2007/02/evidence_of_iran_sup.php

2.  Iran has called for the destruction of Israel and the U.S. for decades.  This isn't news.  No I'm not advocating war over rhetoric, but this is certainly part of the analysis. 

3.   "Iran's chief nuclear envoy Ali Larijani said on Friday that Iran is committed to the peaceful use of nuclear technology but warned the situation could change if his country is threatened. 'We oppose obtaining nuclear weapons and we will peacefully use nuclear technology under the framework of the Nonproliferation Treaty, but if we are threatened, the situation may change,' He told a news conference after two days of talks in Beijing."   http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3348748,00.html

Decker

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2007, 12:43:39 PM »
1.  Not according to the people on the ground:

The U.S. military unveiled the first round of evidence of Iran's complicity in supplying Iraqi insurgents with sophisticated explosive devices and weaponry. An unnamed military explosive expert and a defense intelligence official, along with Coalition Spokesman Major General Bill Caldwell presented the evidence to the Baghdad press corps this morning.

"Iran is involved in supplying explosively formed projectiles or EFPs and other material," such as "explosive charges, booby traps, mortar shells of different calibers and remote controls" to detonate IEDs to "multiple" insurgent groups." Those in attendance "were shown fragments of what the defense official said were Iranian-made weapons, including one part of an EFP and tail fins from 81-mm and 60-mm mortars." "More than 120 US and coalition troops have been killed by these things, and 620 wounded. There was a significant increase in there use over the past six months," said the defense official.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2007/02/evidence_of_iran_sup.php

2.  Iran has called for the destruction of Israel and the U.S. for decades.  This isn't news.  No I'm not advocating war over rhetoric, but this is certainly part of the analysis. 

3.   "Iran's chief nuclear envoy Ali Larijani said on Friday that Iran is committed to the peaceful use of nuclear technology but warned the situation could change if his country is threatened. 'We oppose obtaining nuclear weapons and we will peacefully use nuclear technology under the framework of the Nonproliferation Treaty, but if we are threatened, the situation may change,' He told a news conference after two days of talks in Beijing."   http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3348748,00.html

Ah yes, the Caldwell evidence has already been debunked:  an EFP factory was found in Iraq in April by troops during “Operation Black Eagle,” according to Army Spokesman Lt. Col Scott Bleichwehl.  Also, EFPs were created by the Brits, not the Iranians.

As for the WMD charge, the IAEA has found no evidence that Iran is enriching uranium for weapons.  "The IAEA, the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency, says it has been able to verify that Iran's declared nuclear material has not been diverted from peaceful use."  http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/17/france.iran/index.html

So what do we really have here?:

1.  Allegations of Iran's WMDs refuted by inspectors on the ground

2.  Allegations that Iran is aiding and abetting our enemy with no supporting evidence


Beach Bum have you seen these two lines of "proof" before?

 

headhuntersix

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2007, 02:36:55 PM »
The U.S. experts say that metal disks used in the bombs are precision-engineered and bear Iranian serial numbers. And, U.S. officials say, the EFPs are known to have been used only by Shiites — the majority religion in Iran.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7371750

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/iran-in-iraq/?resultpage=1%26


The last one is the Official DOD slideshow brief to media about Iranian involment in Iraq.
L

headhuntersix

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2007, 02:38:05 PM »
Iran acting to expand its military, economic involvement in Iraq
 
By Haaretz Service
 
The Iranian ambassador to Baghdad has revealed a plan to expand significantly Tehran's economic and military ties with Iraq, the New York Times reported on Sunday.

In an interview with the Times, Hassan Kazemi Qumi outlined a plan that could potentially heighten Iran's conflict with the United States over Iraq. Washington has recently warned Tehran not to meddle in the affairs of its neighbor, detaining a number of Iranian operatives in recent weeks and claiming it has proof of Iranian complicity in attacks on American and Iraqi forces.


 
 
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The Iranian ambassador said Iran was prepared to offer Iraq forces training, equipment and advisers for what he called "the security fight," the Times said.

In the economic area, Qumi told the paper that Iran was prepared to take on expanded responsibility for the reconstruction of Iraq.

"We have experience of reconstruction after war," Qumi said, referring to the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s. "We are ready to transfer this experience in terms of reconstruction to the Iraqis."

Qumi also acknowledged, for the first time, that two Iranians seized and later released by U.S. forces last month were security officials, as the Americans had claimed. But he said that they were engaged in legitimate discussions with the Iraqi government and should not have been detained.

The ambassador said that the Iranian operatives were in Iraq because "the two countries agreed to solve the security problems." The Iranians "went to meet with the Iraqi side," he said.

Qumi said also that Iran would soon open a national bank in Iraq, in effect creating a new Iranian financial institution right under the Americans' noses. A senior Iraqi banking official, Hussein al-Uzri, confirmed that Iran had received a license to open the new bank, which Uzri said would apparently be the first "wholly owned subsidiary bank" of a foreign country in Iraq.

"This will enhance trade between the two countries," Uzri said.
 
L

headhuntersix

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2007, 02:39:22 PM »
If it walks like a.....forget it.
L

240 is Back

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2007, 03:26:47 PM »
If there's independent proof they are killing our men, let's bomb them.

If we can get their oil, let's bomb them.

But -

If it's just about spending money and religious hard-ons for each other, no sense getting americans killed for it, ya know? 

I'm all for letting Israel bomb the shit out of Iran.  Go for it!  We're already in two wars.  Let Israel cook Iran.  No problem with that.  But why should more Americans die in a 3rd war? 

headhuntersix

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2007, 03:39:24 PM »
Think about what would happen if we let Israel bomb them.....then get back to me. While I don't share the 911 stuff with u...I believe that Israel has told us that "we're going if u don't so u better do it soon"....
L

dorkeroo

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2007, 04:13:19 PM »
Maybe the region needs another nuclear superpower to balance things out.

At any rate, some military action against Iran is inevitable. They live in the wrong neighborhood and support the Palestinians. It is also rumored that they killed Santa Claus. >:(

I think you spoke too soon doc. If you do a search, I think you will find that Santa Claus is alive and well right here on our very own getbig! ;D

Dos Equis

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2007, 05:10:22 PM »
If it walks like a.....forget it.

lol.   :D

You're absolutely right about Israel.  We had to beg to keep them out of Desert Storm.  There will be a full-scale regional war if Israel bombs Iran. 

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2007, 05:51:12 PM »
funny how few people even try to look at everything from iran's perspective.
no one semed to mind when israel went nuclear ::)

im not an iran fanboy but why would anyone expect them to do anything different? we are putting them in a very compromised position then point our fingers and say how evil they are when they show any reaction at all ::)

headhuntersix

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2007, 06:12:10 PM »
Well if it were me..I'd sell oil and shut the hell up..but I see ur point.  ;D
L

Dos Equis

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2007, 06:30:31 PM »
funny how few people even try to look at everything from iran's perspective.
no one semed to mind when israel went nuclear ::)

im not an iran fanboy but why would anyone expect them to do anything different? we are putting them in a very compromised position then point our fingers and say how evil they are when they show any reaction at all ::)

Maybe it's all those "death to America" rants?  Calling America the "Great Satan"?  Teaching their kids to burn American flags.  They hate us.  Certainly colors my opinion. 

headhuntersix

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2007, 06:37:29 PM »
It could be...yeah I think that does it for me.
L

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2007, 07:01:32 PM »
Maybe it's all those "death to America" rants?  Calling America the "Great Satan"?  Teaching their kids to burn American flags.  They hate us.  Certainly colors my opinion. 
oh brother what a predictable response, maybe they feel that way because we have been fiercely supporting israel, and condemning them, for the last 50 years.

99% of the reason they hate us is our own doing- its not just random, its not like they just decided one day out of the blue just to hate america, just to be mean, i mean jesus does this even need to be explained?   ::)

haha theres a reason why they are not chanting things like 'death to portugal!' or 'death to slovakia'

headhuntersix

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2007, 07:32:50 PM »
We support Israel because they were a bulwark against the expansion of Soviet backed regimes in trhe Middle East. We could not have the Sov's controlling our oil..much like we can't have religious nutbags controling our oil. We backed the Shah for the same reason..strategic best interest.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2007, 09:39:08 PM »
oh brother what a predictable response, maybe they feel that way because we have been fiercely supporting israel, and condemning them, for the last 50 years.

99% of the reason they hate us is our own doing- its not just random, its not like they just decided one day out of the blue just to hate america, just to be mean, i mean jesus does this even need to be explained?   ::)

haha theres a reason why they are not chanting things like 'death to portugal!' or 'death to slovakia'

Maybe we've been condemning them for the last 50 years because they've been calling for our heads for the last 50 years. 

They hate us because we exist and because we support Israel. 

They don't chant "death to Portugal," because nobody cares about Portugal.  Does that country even exist anymore?  :)

24KT

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2007, 01:55:03 AM »
if cananda overthrew bush and installed wayne gretzky as president forever i'd be ok with it...no, really, i would...


I have a feeling that if Canada overthrew bush and installed the Trailer Park Boys from Newfoundland, or the guy from Corner Gas, the entire world would be ok with it.
w

24KT

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2007, 02:01:07 AM »
Sanctions.


We starve them like we did Iraq.  We destroyed Iraq's economy from 93 to 2003 thru economic sanctions.  Iran's economy is in the dumps already despite all that oil.  Squeeze them.  Their population will suffer and they'll elect moderates.  It can happen in Iran.  Saddam was a dictator so it couldn't happen there. 

Eons ago, an old Roman emperor tried that before on the Persians, ...and it had disastrous results on the empire.
The old adage that those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it holds very true.
It appears to me that the Persians haven't forgotten, but the new Caesar has ...if he ever knew it in the first place
w

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2007, 02:33:44 AM »
Maybe we've been condemning them for the last 50 years because they've been calling for our heads for the last 50 years. 

They hate us because we exist and because we support Israel

They don't chant "death to Portugal," because nobody cares about Portugal.  Does that country even exist anymore?  :)
yep just like i said

240 is Back

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2007, 05:09:05 PM »
yes, we back israel,  as they are a strategic partner.  you can argue agains tthe validity of israel's right to be there, but it's like they are there.  If Rus decided to surprise nuke us, Israel would nuke Russia.  Part of MAD.

They hate us becase we interfere with what happens in their part of the world.

BB, your assertion that they hate us because we exist, and they don't hate other countries because they don't care... well, it's something I'd expect from an elementary school student trying to explain it.  THey hate us because we back Israel.  Fuck em, I could care less.  They hate us because we buy more of thei oil than anyone else, and keep prices low thru smart relationships - fuck em on that one too.  They hate us for our religion.  Yes, fuck em again.  I don't care if they hate us.  I don't want to bomb another country because they don't like us.  In case you haven't noticed, the majority of americans hate THEM too.  So be it.  You always fear the unknown, and they are a scary unknown. 

Now if they go from hating us to ATTACKING us - well then I say we cook em, plain and simple. 

I could care less about what they like/dislike about us.  But have some honesty, BB.  THey don't hate us for no reason, it's not random.  They hate us because we exploit their resources and back a country which took land from their ally. 

240 is Back

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2007, 05:11:06 PM »
We support Israel because they were a bulwark against the expansion of Soviet backed regimes in trhe Middle East. We could not have the Sov's controlling our oil..much like we can't have religious nutbags controling our oil. We backed the Shah for the same reason..strategic best interest.

Correct.  It's nice to see a brain here.  THey don't hate us "because we exist".  THat's beyond idiotic.  Walruses exist on the opposite side of the world.  I think I'll randomly hate them, eh BB?  ;)  They hate us because we manage their lifeblood, oil.  Tough luck for them.

Dos Equis

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2007, 06:17:45 PM »
yes, we back israel,  as they are a strategic partner.  you can argue agains tthe validity of israel's right to be there, but it's like they are there.  If Rus decided to surprise nuke us, Israel would nuke Russia.  Part of MAD.

They hate us becase we interfere with what happens in their part of the world.

BB, your assertion that they hate us because we exist, and they don't hate other countries because they don't care... well, it's something I'd expect from an elementary school student trying to explain it.  THey hate us because we back Israel.  Fuck em, I could care less.  They hate us because we buy more of thei oil than anyone else, and keep prices low thru smart relationships - fuck em on that one too.  They hate us for our religion.  Yes, fuck em again.  I don't care if they hate us.  I don't want to bomb another country because they don't like us.  In case you haven't noticed, the majority of americans hate THEM too.  So be it.  You always fear the unknown, and they are a scary unknown. 

Now if they go from hating us to ATTACKING us - well then I say we cook em, plain and simple. 

I could care less about what they like/dislike about us.  But have some honesty, BB.  THey don't hate us for no reason, it's not random.  They hate us because we exploit their resources and back a country which took land from their ally. 

lol.  You should sit this one out.  It's a little over your head.  Go work on your cooking recipes.  http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Basics-Dummies/dp/0764572067/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2747542-9259361?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191114537&sr=8-1

Or maybe you should continue to focus on the faked moon landing conspiracy.

 

240 is Back

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Re: Congress gave Bush authority to bomb Iran today?
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2007, 12:30:36 AM »
lol.  You should sit this one out.  It's a little over your head.  Go work on your cooking recipes.  http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Basics-Dummies/dp/0764572067/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2747542-9259361?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191114537&sr=8-1

Or maybe you should continue to focus on the faked moon landing conspiracy.

 

An insult followed by a red herring.

I think even those who disagree with me here will agree that I listed valid reason for their disdain, and instead of refuting them, you delivered an insult and a red herring argument.

It's a shame that the far right members here have to settle for you as a moderator.  With Delusional Liberal, at least they had a guy who could deliver cohesive arguments and back things up.   You, on the other hand, quickly end debates when you don't have a response by starting insults.