240's proposed Initiative for the board (sticked for 24 hours)

[Hugo Chavez]

If 240's post were only a complaint about a mod, it would be valid to move to the complaint board, but since the complaint was posed in the form of changing board rules on conduct it seems a valid argument to hold here and not on the complaint board.  Anyone at anytime can lay out ideas for this forum for us all to talk about and adobt if the mods concur.

So here is 240's post, please weigh in on his Initiative:

I wish to propose this to the members of the politics board - a "support/condemn" initiative for repatedly bad behavior - insults, red herrings, etc.

BB moved it

my post:


I believe the goal of the politics board is to debate topics, is it not?

Today I posted a response in which I listed what I believed to be valid reasons why the US is hated in the middle east, including our oil arrangements, religious differences, and support of Israel, and I supported all of the Us' behavior in these cases, and pretty much said "tough luck" to those who disliked us for it.

A moderator, Beach Bum, responded that the conversation was "over my head" and that I should stick to recipes/cookbooks, an obvious and repeated insult to the fact that I am a stay-at-home dad:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=170594.msg2411159#msg2411159

I feel Beach Bum hurts the level of respect we all show for each other.  I also feel that he intentially tries to derail good arguments - as we were having - into a name-calling exercise in which we actually insult each other for our jobs. 

For the good of the board, I call on members to condemn this kind of negative behavior.  Look at what he wrote:

lol.  You should sit this one out.  It's a little over your head.  Go work on your cooking recipes.  http://www.amazon.com/Cooking-Basics-Dummies/dp/0764572067/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2747542-9259361?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191114537&sr=8-1

Or maybe you should continue to focus on the faked moon landing conspiracy.

 

Does this kind of response encourage good debate, with supports?  Does this lead to an exchange of ideas?  Or does it lead to insults and name-calling?

FOR THE GOOD OF THE POLITICS BOARD - I say we begin to hold town meetings on issues like this.  Everyone just throw in a quick "condemn this kind of behavior" or "I think this kind of behavior is great".

No one is perfect, and we all go off the handle now and then over politics, full of hotbutton topics.  But this is a moderator here, insulting my home life because I refuted his point on US policy and world opinion.  Thank you.

[Nordic Superman]

Is this a dictatorship or a democracy? 1 man makes the rules for all?

Who's unhappy with the nature of the politics board?

I for one am happy as is.

[Hugo Chavez]

To be fair, I get tiffy in my arguments too, so this innitiative is really not singling out BB, but me also as well as other members.  My own thinking is that it goes to far sometimes especially when it's used over and over to sabatoge threads or even outright chase off people from posting in this forum.  I don't care about the occational tiff mid debate, but if it goes to the extent that it prohibits intelligent debate on a regular basis, it becomes a problem.  I also like that the mods are free to shoot it out and participate in the forum so I don't want to see the mods held to any level that those posting aren't willing to follow themselves.

[Hugo Chavez]

Is this a dictatorship or a democracy? 1 man makes the rules for all?

Who's unhappy with the nature of the politics board?

I for one am happy as is.

It's a dictatorship.  The mods have the final say, but anyone at anytime can propose things for the board and if we all agree, it's good to go.

[240 is Back]

I proposed a condemn/condone measure of the following type of tactics:

I thought of a nice list that politics members could condemn/condone:

red herrings

eye rolls

insults of a personal nature

The style of "well, a dem did this in 1962, so what's the big deal if..."



I think it would improve the place.  Sort of a uniform code of conduct, craeted by the peers.  Seriously, I insulted his argument, and he started calling me a little housewife and suggesting recipes.  In the past, I would have make some animated gifs about his family life in return for insulting mine.  But hey, why not be grownups about it and as a group, decide if this is what we want for the place?

[Nordic Superman]

No eye rolls?

Get real, you're trying to impose something nobody is going to follow.

It'd last 5 minutes.

What would the repercussions be? Banned from the forum? It'd be memberless within days.

I think you need to get real and see this forum and its members for what it is.

Remember, this is a politics forum, stuck onto a bodybuilding forum.

[Cap]

240, although you want it taken to a vote, isn't this the same type of censorship you might have faced with 9/11 threads?  If that was taken to a vote, would you have abided by that ruling? 

As far as the caddy or childish nature that may occur here, it is representative of real politics.

[240 is Back]

No eye rolls?

Get real, you're trying to impose something nobody is going to follow.

It'd last 5 minutes.

What would the repercussions be? Banned from the forum? It'd be memberless within days.

I think you need to get real and see this forum and its members for what it is.

Remember, this is a politics forum, stuck onto a bodybuilding forum.

There would be no bannings.  There would simply be a reference to "Well, your peers list the eye roll as ignorant behavior/poor argument/something we're better than here on the Politics board".

Hey, he insulted my job and role in my family.  I could respond with fifty posts about his family members.  Watch the quality of this place deterioriate very quickly.  If you want it to be an ugly, hateful place, so be it.  Just say the word.  We can replace daily arguments with daily insults/hate threads.  Super.  Nordic, just as I have with my country and my elected officials, I have high standards for the place.   Don't you?

[240 is Back]

240, although you want it taken to a vote, isn't this the same type of censorship you might have faced with 9/11 threads?  If that was taken to a vote, would you have abided by that ruling? 

As far as the caddy or childish nature that may occur here, it is representative of real politics.

Hey, if we all agree to it, I'm game.


Then when Beach Bum deletes posts I make about his role in family... that would be hypocritial, wouldn't it?


He made a personal attack.  I wanted to know if the board wanted to open the floodgate to that.  I'm game.  Just don't bitch when I fire back at him.  He's a mod with delete ability.  That's bullshit if he insults me (as he did) and removes my repsonses (as he did!)

[Nordic Superman]

There would be no bannings.  There would simply be a reference to "Well, your peers list the eye roll as ignorant behavior/poor argument/something we're better than here on the Politics board".

Hey, he insulted my job and role in my family.  I could respond with fifty posts about his family members.  Watch the quality of this place deterioriate very quickly.  If you want it to be an ugly, hateful place, so be it.  Just say the word.  We can replace daily arguments with daily insults/hate threads.  Super.  Nordic, just as I have with my country and my elected officials, I have high standards for the place.   Don't you?

Well I'm just tryna get straight what the punishments may be etc.

Of course family should never be insulted. That's an absolute.

[240 is Back]

Well I'm just tryna get straight what the punishments may be etc.

Of course family should never be insulted. That's an absolute.

Okay.  Personal attacks - "240 needs a cookbook for recipes because he's a little woman who is a stay-at-home dad".

Are those okay?

Cause BB posted it, and removed my response.  Either let me respond, or don't start shit.

A mod cannot start shit and delete responses.

[Dos Equis]

My two cents (and worth every penny):

1.  This is absurd.  

2.  Regarding 240, anyone who has posted on this board regularly for the past year knows he and I have had numerous colorful exchanges.  I never initiate stuff with this kid, but I have responded to many.  My exchange yesterday, where he compared me to an elementary school kid, and I responded by telling him to go be Martha Stewart (or something like that  , is one of many exchanges we have had over the past year.  

3.  It really takes a lot for me to start getting into the ad hominem battles, but I do it.  You have to work pretty hard for that to happen.  When it does, mine are typically lighthearted and will include very special nicknames, reference material, movie links that get my point across, etc.  If you have a problem with this, then don't engage me.  

4.  If anyone has a problem with me, send me a PM.  Don't create a dumb thread where you can whine like a little kid.  I will move your thread to the Complaints Board where it belongs.  

5.  If you still have a problem with me after bringing something to my attention in an appropriate way, I suggest you contact Ron and ask him to cut my salary for helping mod this board.

I will move this thread to the Complaints Board too as soon as the sticky is taken off by Berserker.  

[ieffinhatecardio]

Okay.  Personal attacks - "240 needs a cookbook for recipes because he's a little woman who is a stay-at-home dad".

Are those okay?

Cause BB posted it, and removed my response.  Either let me respond, or don't start shit.

A mod cannot start shit and delete responses.

You started posting again (which is a good thing), you shook things up a bit and made it more interesting. Apparently some people aren't too happy about that. Notice that it's only one person that has a problem with you.

Also, I don't remember there ever being an issue with threads/posts being moved or deleted by a regular contributor to the board. Trolls are different and should be banned but that's certainly not you.

[240 is Back]

3.  It really takes a lot for me to start getting into the ad hominem battles, but I do it.  You have to work pretty hard for that to happen.  When it does, mine are typically lighthearted and will include very special nicknames, reference material, movie links that get my point across, etc.  If you have a problem with this, then don't engage me.  

Yes, the problem is, you re-classified my response to your insult, then MOVED it.

Mods cannot do this.

Anytime a mod gets into AH arguments, as you admit you did, he loses his ability to censor his opponent.  It sometimes takes a while for moderators to understand this - once you insult someone on a personal level, you cannot have the power to delete responses as a way of arguing back.

A system of checks balances needs to be in place.  I proposed it.  It would be natural that you would fight the power to be checked - as it is yours.  This is a splendid example of the need for checks and balances in society and on the forums.   You feared you would lose power (the power to insult and not be responded to), so you removed my posts repeatedly.


Even dictatorships (which I know and accept the politics board to be) need to have consistent policies.  You're being selfish here, and abusing your power when you insult and remove responses.

[240 is Back]

You started posting again (which is a good thing), you shook things up a bit and made it more interesting. Apparently some people aren't too happy about that. Notice that it's only one person that has a problem with you. 

His argument really was of an elementary school level debate tactic:  "They hate us because we exist, but they don't hate others that exist because they don't matter".

When called on it, he insulted me on a personal nature. 

Then he removed my responses repeatedly.



It is interesting that he only had this hard-on for me, isn't it?

[Dos Equis]

Yes, the problem is, you re-classified my response to your insult, then MOVED it.

Mods cannot do this.

Anytime a mod gets into AH arguments, as you admit you did, he loses his ability to censor his opponent.  It sometimes takes a while for moderators to understand this - once you insult someone on a personal level, you cannot have the power to delete responses as a way of arguing back.

A system of checks balances needs to be in place.  I proposed it.  It would be natural that you would fight the power to be checked - as it is yours.  This is a splendid example of the need for checks and balances in society and on the forums.   You feared you would lose power (the power to insult and not be responded to), so you removed my posts repeatedly.


Even dictatorships (which I know and accept the politics board to be) need to have consistent policies.  You're being selfish here, and abusing your power when you insult and remove responses.

lol.  We weren't having a debate.   

Just so we're clear on the sequence of events:

1.  You responded to one of my posts by comparing me to an elementary school kid. 

2.  I responded to your ad hominem post by telling you to buy a Cooking for Dummies book.

3.  Both your initial comment and my response remain in that thread. 

4.  In response to my cooking comment, you created a thread complaining about moderator etiquette.  I moved that thread to the Complaints Board where it belongs. 

5.  You then reposted the same complaint thread in the topic, so I split it and moved to the Complaints Board where it belongs. 

6.  You then created another thread making the same complaint, which was moved to the Complaints Board where it belongs. 

7.  You then created a thread about homosexuals in Hawaii, deleted the content, and replaced it with the same moderator etiquette nonsense, which I moved to Complaints Board where it belongs. 

I will move this one too tomorrow and you can continue to cry on the Complaints Board.    If you have a problem with this, take it up with Ron.  Or you can demand a refund for your participation on this site. 

[Hedgehog]

JMHO:

The board is fine.

Two things, and this goes for everyone:

1. If you can't handle shit, don't start shit.

2. Use your fcuking common sense.

[Straw Man]

Yes, the problem is, you re-classified my response to your insult, then MOVED it.

Mods cannot do this.

Anytime a mod gets into AH arguments, as you admit you did, he loses his ability to censor his opponent.  It sometimes takes a while for moderators to understand this - once you insult someone on a personal level, you cannot have the power to delete responses as a way of arguing back.

A system of checks balances needs to be in place.  I proposed it.  It would be natural that you would fight the power to be checked - as it is yours.  This is a splendid example of the need for checks and balances in society and on the forums.   You feared you would lose power (the power to insult and not be responded to), so you removed my posts repeatedly.


Even dictatorships (which I know and accept the politics board to be) need to have consistent policies.  You're being selfish here, and abusing your power when you insult and remove responses.

There are enough mods on this board that it seems reasonable that if a mod is involved in a debate/argument, etc..  then he/she should recuse himself from censoring that specific thread.   

Personally - I don't think anything should be censored.

Even if a thread veers off into a personal argument it's still often entertaining and sometimes you can learn more about a person and their beliefs in that kind of situation.   

It's only WORDS - who cares

[Dos Equis]

JMHO:

The board is fine.

Two things, and this goes for everyone:

1. If you can't handle shit, don't start shit.

2. Use your fcuking common sense.

I agree.

[OzmO]

Happy Sunday everyone.

I've been following this "debate" while i have been watching the Niners redefine the phrases:  "No offense and multiple turn overs"  They have twice as many turn overs as points.

Honestly,

I don't see where the big deal is here in terms of personal attacks with-in the context of a debate/argument.   

240 and BB both have engaged in personal attacks with other people and each other.   So what? 

If you get to the point where you take what people say to you on a message board too personally i feel it's time to stop posting for a while, take deep breath, go hug your loved ones, and take inventory of what's really important in life.  In doing this you find that this forum is on the bottom half of the list.

Stick and stones fellas..............(speaking as a person who engaged in a 3 thread insult war with MM69 that lasted several days and look at us now, we get along great....so what's the big deal?)

IMO  a system of checks and balances will only over complicate a pretty simple board and in the short and long term just create more problems.

Should BB have moved the complaint?  Maybe yes, maybe no. 

Is the issue BB moving it or is it the insults?

The insult issue is a stupid thing to discuss becuase if we pursue it, this board will turn into Barney's PC playland enforce by over sensitive PC nazis.

The moving issue might be debatable until you realize that 240's whole issue is being discussed right here right now.

So what do i think?

I think we all have a civic duty to pay more attention to that fact that we look as though we might engage in hostilities with Iran and what that will mean to the future of our country, our children, and our freedom.

Also we should consider or find out if it's too late to replace the offensive coordinator for the niners.

And i love both you guys, 240 & BB.  (in a brotherly sort of way  )

[Dos Equis]

Happy Sunday everyone.

I've been following this "debate" while i have been watching the Niners redefine the phrases:  "No offense and multiple turn overs"  They have twice as many turn overs as points.

Honestly,

I don't see where the big deal is here in terms of personal attacks with-in the context of a debate/argument.   

240 and BB both have engaged in personal attacks with other people and each other.   So what? 

If you get to the point where you take what people say to you on a message board too personally i feel it's time to stop posting for a while, take deep breath, go hug your loved ones, and take inventory of what's really important in life.  In doing this you find that this forum is on the bottom half of the list.

Stick and stones fellas..............(speaking as a person who engaged in a 3 thread insult war with MM69 that lasted several days and look at us now, we get along great....so what's the big deal?)

IMO  a system of checks and balances will only over complicate a pretty simple board and in the short and long term just create more problems.

Should BB have moved the complaint?  Maybe yes, maybe no. 

Is the issue BB moving it or is it the insults?

The insult issue is a stupid thing to discuss becuase if we pursue it, this board will turn into Barney's PC playland enforce by over sensitive PC nazis.

The moving issue might be debatable until you realize that 240's whole issue is being discussed right here right now.

So what do i think?

I think we all have a civic duty to pay more attention to that fact that we look as though we might engage in hostilities with Iran and what that will mean to the future of our country, our children, and our freedom.

Also we should consider or find out if it's too late to replace the offensive coordinator for the niners.

And i love both you guys, 240 & BB.  (in a brotherly sort of way  )

Well said Ozmo.  I agree.  Time for a group hug?   

I am suffering mightily today.  The Niners O really stinks.  The D is good enough to win, but the complete lack of a passing game is killing them.  Killing Gore too.  To top it off, I had some kid in my ear the entire game telling me how bad the Niners suck. 

[Cap]

If people can't handle personal attacks on the boards, how the hell do they do it in real life?

Like Ozmo said, if you can't handle ribbing or attacks then retire for a while and get some perspective.

If anything needs to be censored anywhere on Getbig are the people selling their scam products and makes comments just to stir up trouble.

[240 is Back]

If people can't handle personal attacks on the boards, how the hell do they do it in real life?

Like Ozmo said, if you can't handle ribbing or attacks then retire for a while and get some perspective.

If anything needs to be censored anywhere on Getbig are the people selling their scam products and makes comments just to stir up trouble.

that's fine. 

But

Beach Bum has already said that he will remove my responses to his insults, or any attempt to fix this broken system where he is allowed to insult at will.

The system is flawed here - a moderator can start shit then delete his adversary's response.

I suggested we fix that system - and the moderator removed that post.  Repeatedly.



The mod needs to remove himself from arguments where he feels the need to remove posts.  Or he needs to not touch the 'move post' button.

Bob Chic tried this and Ron rebuked him.  You cannot start shit, then delete responses. 

[Cap]

that's fine. 

But

Beach Bum has already said that he will remove my responses to his insults, or any attempt to fix this broken system where he is allowed to insult at will.

The system is flawed here - a moderator can start shit then delete his adversary's response.

I suggested we fix that system - and the moderator removed that post.  Repeatedly.



The mod needs to remove himself from arguments where he feels the need to remove posts.  Or he needs to not touch the 'move post' button.

Bob Chic tried this and Ron rebuked him.  You cannot start shit, then delete responses. 

Man, the training board could have used this argument a few months back.   

You and I get into on here, or at least have, but seriously put this into perspective and don't recreate past stresses because of an online  disagreement.  It's hard to show restraint when you can remove posts but I think BB does a good job and you have to decide if this is a hill you want to die one.

[240 is Back]

Berserker's rules say no personal attacks.

I attacker his assertion and valued it as poor.  He then committed a personal attack.  He didn't follow the rules of Berserker.

If the rule has been changed, let's change it and have some fun here talking some shit.  But we all know that if I were to insult BB right now, the post would be removed.  COnsistency and clarification is all I want.  He mocked me for being a stay at home dad and called me a woman.  I would love to spend the next 5 posts talking shit back.  But, he'll remove them for violation of the rules.

Mods, you need to please clarify what the rules are. Cause BB isn't following the existing rule of no personal attacks.