Federal Tax Brackets

[Eyeball Chambers]

Seems to me everyone should have to pay the same set percent no matter their income?

I know it could cause problems but....

Just thinking... 

Opinions?

[24KT]

Seems to me everyone should have to pay the same set percent no matter their income?

I know it could cause problems but....

Just thinking... 

Opinions?

While set percentages seem like a fair system, it causes the poor to contribute a disporportionally larger amount of their income.

A fixed 50% for instance hurts someone making $30K a year, far more than it hurts someone making $300K

[Eyeball Chambers]

Oh yeah, I agree completely.

I mean a low set percentage.  Like 15%.   

I guess the government wouldn't take in enough of our $$$ to waste in that case though. 

[24KT]

Oh yeah, I agree completely.

I mean a low set percentage.  Like 15%.   

I guess the government wouldn't take in enough of our $$$ to waste in that case though. 

Whether it be 15% or 50%, it would still result in the poor paying a disproportionately larger amount of their income

[Dos Equis]

Seems to me everyone should have to pay the same set percent no matter their income?

I know it could cause problems but....

Just thinking... 

Opinions?

Absolutely.  Steve Forbes advocated a flat tax back in the 90s.  That discussion is all but dead.  I wish they would put it back on the table. 

[Decker]

The imposition of a flat tax would raise taxes on poor people and cut taxes for wealthy people.

The true elites in this country don't care about the income tax anyways.  They make their money from capital gains--buying/selling properties, businesses, stocks.

I recall that a sustainable flat tax would be about 19-22%.

Philosophically the flat tax is a horrible idea.  Here's why:  Those with the ability to pay more do pay more.  Those that are below average in earnings pay what they can.  You don't have your grandmother move your barbells to the attic and you don't have the poor pay the same rate as the rich.  Those with the strongest arms do the heaviest lifting.

Even Adam Smith (Invisible Hand) believed in a progressive tax system.

[Dos Equis]

The imposition of a flat tax would raise taxes on poor people and cut taxes for wealthy people.

The true elites in this country don't care about the income tax anyways.  They make their money from capital gains--buying/selling properties, businesses, stocks.

I recall that a sustainable flat tax would be about 19-22%.

Philosophically the flat tax is a horrible idea.  Here's why:  Those with the ability to pay more do pay more.  Those that are below average in earnings pay what they can.  You don't have your grandmother move your barbells to the attic and you don't have the poor pay the same rate as the rich.  Those with the strongest arms do the heaviest lifting.

Even Adam Smith (Invisible Hand) believed in a progressive tax system.

What do you mean by "poor people"?  Those who pay little or no taxes because of (in part) the Earned Income Tax Credit?

The "wealthy" already do the heavy lifting when it comes to taxes.  People who make more money will continue to pay most of the taxes in this county, whether we have a flat tax or not. 

Some in this country have the mindset that the more successful you become, the more the government is entitled to take from you.  That's just wrong. 

[240 is Back]

flat tax sounds fair.  It IS fair.

But... it means the poor and middle class will pay more in taxes.  So they won't buy as much.  So economy will take a hit.

For the rich folks, you'll be saving money on taxes, but losing your long term value, as your stocks will fall when joe sixpack no longer has disposable cash for walmart each week.  Remember - there are a LOT more poor and middle class people than rich people.

You rich folks NEED the poor and mid class to have disposable income.

[Decker]

What do you mean by "poor people"?  Those who pay little or no taxes because of (in part) the Earned Income Tax Credit?

The "wealthy" already do the heavy lifting when it comes to taxes.  People who make more money will continue to pay most of the taxes in this county, whether we have a flat tax or not. 

Some in this country have the mindset that the more successful you become, the more the government is entitled to take from you.  That's just wrong. 

$48,000 is the average household income in the US.  Raising a family on that is tough.  The EITC is phased out at 38K.  So I guess I'm referring to households earning less than $48,000 per year--the bottom 2 marginal brackets.  For families earning 25,000 or less per year, their effective tax rate is zero.  Now you want to impose a 20% tax hike on them.  Nice.

Tell me, is 20% of 200,000 (40,000) the same as 20% of 50,000 (10,000)?

Can the 200,000 earner make ends meet for a family of 4 on 160,000?  Can the 50k earner make ends meet for a family of four on 40,000?

Is the government penalizing success or merely taxing those in accordance with ability to pay?

Finally, you do realize that every person in America does pay the same tax rate don't you?  The more you earn, the more you pay as your bracket advances.  Rich people pay the same tax on 50K as lower middle class people.

[Dos Equis]

$48,000 is the average household income in the US.  Raising a family on that is tough.  The EITC is phased out at 38K.  So I guess I'm referring to households earning less than $48,000 per year--the bottom 2 marginal brackets.  For families earning 25,000 or less per year, their effective tax rate is zero.  Now you want to impose a 20% tax hike on them.  Nice.

Tell me, is 20% of 200,000 (40,000) the same as 20% of 50,000 (10,000)?

Can the 200,000 earner make ends meet for a family of 4 on 160,000?  Can the 50k earner make ends meet for a family of four on 40,000?

Is the government penalizing success or merely taxing those in accordance with ability to pay?

Finally, you do realize that every person in America does pay the same tax rate don't you?  The more you earn, the more you pay as your bracket advances.  Rich people pay the same tax on 50K as lower middle class people.

I believe everyone who pays taxes is overtaxed.  What I am opposed to is "targeted" tax cuts.  When we cut taxes, like the government should always be trying to do, we should cut them for everyone.

Yes I believe 20 percent of 200,000 is the same as 20 percent of 50,000.  It's still 20 percent. 

I'm not sure how all of the nuances of a flat tax would work, but I would imagine we could keep certain deductions that would allow people to reduce their tax burden.  Doesn't sound unfair to me at all.     

[Decker]

I believe everyone who pays taxes is overtaxed....

Yes I believe 20 percent of 200,000 is the same as 20 percent of 50,000.  It's still 20 percent.... 

I'm not sure how all of the nuances of a flat tax would work, but I would imagine we could keep certain deductions that would allow people to reduce their tax burden.  Doesn't sound unfair to me at all.     

The flat tax proposals I have seen (Armey, Forbes) eliminates deductions and exemptions.  I also believe that those are consumption taxes and not income taxes.

When is 20% not 20%?  When you're trying to feed and clothe and shelter a family of 4 on 50K while your paying 10k of that in flat taxes.   C'mon Beach Bum you know that.

So everyone is overtaxed.  Please.  Government has a right to that portion of your/our money.  First, you would not have earned one thin dime if the government support and sustenance of the free market did not exist.  Speaking of money, you wouldn't even have Government Issued Legal Tender.  How about your property rights?  Ooops, they only work b/c we have a government that created and sustains a legal system/property system.

So our tax dollars support that, the military, roads, rural electrification, education, inoculation, insured banking, loans, libraries and on and on.

We can argue about the marginal rates all day but don't think that any tax is too much.  We stand on the acheivements and accomplishments of other in this society.  No man is an island Beach Bum....you ought to know that since you live in Paradise.

[Dos Equis]

The flat tax proposals I have seen (Armey, Forbes) eliminates deductions and exemptions.  I also believe that those are consumption taxes and not income taxes.

When is 20% not 20%?  When you're trying to feed and clothe and shelter a family of 4 on 50K while your paying 10k of that in flat taxes.   C'mon Beach Bum you know that.

So everyone is overtaxed.  Please.  Government has a right to that portion of your/our money.  First, you would not have earned one thin dime if the government support and sustenance of the free market did not exist.  Speaking of money, you wouldn't even have Government Issued Legal Tender.  How about your property rights?  Ooops, they only work b/c we have a government that created and sustains a legal system/property system.

So our tax dollars support that, the military, roads, rural electrification, education, inoculation, insured banking, loans, libraries and on and on.

We can argue about the marginal rates all day but don't think that any tax is too much.  We stand on the acheivements and accomplishments of other in this society.  No man is an island Beach Bum....you ought to know that since you live in Paradise.

Well, you are right about the fact that it is "your/our money."     That's the real issue.  It's our money.  The government should be working to allow us to keep more of our own money.  The best thing the government did and continues to do for me is get out of the way and keep its hand out of my pocket. 

Of course our tax dollars support defense, public safety, infrastructure, education, safety net, etc.  I have no problem with that.  The problem is Washington D.C. (and our state government here before Governor Lingle) doesn't manage our money very well.  They spend it on pet projects.  They fund things that I don't support.  They waste.  They're irresponsible.  I trust the individual American much more than the government to spend the individual American's money.  It's not the government's money Decker. 

No man is an island.  True.  (Except me.     But I'm not talking about isolationism.  I'm talking about a mindset.  About the people we put in public office realizing that they serve us, that the money we earn belongs to us, and that we provide much better, and fairer opportunities for our people when we allow them to keep more of their own money. 

[Eyeball Chambers]

Interesting thread

Thanks for the input everyone!

[24KT]

The imposition of a flat tax would raise taxes on poor people and cut taxes for wealthy people.

Yeah, that's what I meant, but you explain it better. 

You don't have your grandmother move your barbells to the attic and you don't have the poor pay the same rate as the rich.  Those with the strongest arms do the heaviest lifting.

... that's so socialist.     

Speaking of strong arms, ...can you come over and help me move some furniture this weekend? 

[Al-Gebra]

Yeah, that's what I meant, but you explain it better. 

... that's so socialist.     

Speaking of strong arms, ...can you come over and help me move some furniture this weekend? 

if you were ten years younger, he'd consider it. 

[24KT]

if you were ten years younger, he'd consider it. 

Go Fvck Yourself!!!

[Al-Gebra]

Go Fvck Yourself!!!

 

[24KT]

The rich have many unfair advantages in a capitalist system, they should pay more taxes. But by rich I am not taking about a hard working person making 150K or a small business owner who has worked hard to make his business a success. Rich is the top 1% of people in America ( people making about 350K or more) . They need to pay much more than they do now, and the top 10% of the top 1%  need to pay even more. The middle class ( single, 50K to 150K ) needs a tax cut.

Agreed, but under the current system of class warfare practiced by this administration, that's unlikely to happen.

[Dos Equis]

The rich have many unfair advantages in a capitalist system, they should pay more taxes. But by rich I am not taking about a hard working person making 150K or a small business owner who has worked hard to make his business a success. Rich is the top 1% of people in America ( people making about 350K or more) . They need to pay much more than they do now, and the top 10% of the top 1%  need to pay even more. The middle class ( single, 50K to 150K ) needs a tax cut.

Your definition of "rich" includes a plethora of small business owners.  For example, many sole proprietorships and LLCs generate $350k, $400k, $500k, etc., but after overhead (including salaries, benefits, inventory, etc.), they don't take home anywhere near that amount. 

A person making $50k isn't any more deserving of a tax cut than a person making $250k.  The government should take less from both of them. 

[Deicide]

Name me one small business owner taking home  350,000 a year. Once you get to that level you are a  chain and no longer a small business owner. Also If you bothered to read my post...and you have not on either of them, you would see I said taxes should increase at this point. I did not say it should go from 15% to two or three times that. I also said a people in the 98% need a tax cut and that would include a persom making 250K a year.

Read before you post next time.

Also a person making 50K is more deserving of paying a less of a % in taxes than a person making 250K, but that was and is not my point here.

Is that a new card? Holy shit, it even has a water mark!

[Dos Equis]

Name me one small business owner taking home  350,000 a year. Once you get to that level you are a  chain and no longer a small business owner. Also If you bothered to read my post...and you have not on either of them, you would see I said taxes should increase at this point. I did not say it should go from 15% to two or three times that. I also said a people in the 98% need a tax cut and that would include a persom making 250K a year.

Read before you post next time.

Also a person making 50K is more deserving of paying a less of a % in taxes than a person making 250K, but that was and is not my point here.

I read your post again.  My opinion remains the same.  Maybe you should pay closer attention to mine.  I didn't say small business owners take home $350k a year (although plenty of them do).  I said "after overhead (including salaries, benefits, inventory, etc.), they don't take home anywhere near that amount."  Did you miss that part? 

I know of a plethora of small business that gross between about $300,000 and under and $1 million.  These aren't necessarily "rich" people.  They include owners of jewelry stores, fast food, small law firms, small doctor's offices, photography businesses, real estate agents, mom and pop food stores, etc.  They are actually the backbone of our economy.  These are many of the people who suffer when we play the liberal class warfare.

We just have a fundamental disagreement.  I don't believe you are entitled to pay a lesser percentage of taxes because you make less money.  That's unfair IMO.   

[Cap]

Go Fvck Yourself!!!

Hahaha.  Menopause meltdown.

As for the topic, cutting taxes for some (the poor) would not be better for the system or fair (like BB said).  Rich people could care less about taxes and get many tax write offs.  However, by having poorer people get more benefits from taxes while contributing less, you create an unfair and unjust system.

I agree

The real problem is when politicians talk about this people think hard working successful people will be punished. But a really fair system ( and we will never see one) would have a flat tax ( 15%)  for 98% of Americans and a higher tax bracket for the top 2%, clearly going up the higher the worth. The idea that a Billionaire is being punished for success because he/she has to pay 70% rather than 15% is absurd.

That would be absurd to charge a billionaire that much in taxes.  He/she earned the income and shouldn't have to pay extreme amounts to feed the welfare family/mom and their/her 4+ kids. 

[Hedgehog]

Whether it's fair or not is completely irrelevant IMO.

The the thing that is relevant:

-What effects will it have on economic growth?

If it doesn't have any negative effects, progressive tax brackets should be used, as it gives the opportunity to stimulate consumption and cash flow in the low-income segment.

It also gives the government the possibility to invest in the general education system, to gain for all.

It's all about looking at what you gain and what you lose.

You then need to get approval for it in the general public, but that is up to the politicians to do.

[MB_722]

whats the tax system like in scandinavian countries?

[Deicide]

whats the tax system like in scandinavian countries?

High, about 40%..but they do live nice lives there...