Muay Thai versus Karate part II

[americanbulldog]

Benny the Jet Urquidez lost two controversial matches that were scratched from his record.

They were against Narongnoi Kiatbandit and Prayuth Sittiboonlert. 

Anyone have vids of these.

Don the Dragon Wilson, a student of Bill Wallace also has two losses in Thailand, Samart Prasmit, and another fighter.  Again, can't find any videos of these as well. 

The late great Andy Hug lost to Mr. Perfect Ernesto Hoost three times, while only beating him once.  Hug also lost to Peter Aerts twice.  Both of them thai boxers. 

Rob Kaman, 98-11-1, some call him the greatest kickboxer of all time.   He is the first European to beat the thai's at their game.  Came from the infamous meijiro gym. 

Deiselnoi Chor Thanasukarn, king of the knee.  Retired from fighting because of no competition. 

, Beat karate champ John Moncayo barely breaking a sweat. 

Sagat Petchyindee,  one of the very greatest fighters ever. Beaten Rob Kaman and Ivan Hippolyte

[realkarateblackbelt]

"There were "Karate vs. Muay Thai fights" February 12, 1963. The 3 karate fighters from Oyama dojo (Kyokushin later) went to the Lumpinee Boxing Stadium in Thailand, and fought against 3 Muay Thai fighters. The 3 karate fighters' names are Tadashi Nakamura, Kenji Kurosaki and Akio Fujihira (as known as Noboru Osawa). Japan won by 2-1 then."

You left out that part.

Hoost and Aerts aren't pure Muay-Thai fighters; they're kickboxers.

Kickboxing developed by combining muay-thai and karate.

[realkarateblackbelt]

Also, Hoost and Aerts were MUCH bigger than Andy Hug.

Full-Contact Karate fighter, and one of the smallest K-1 champs in history, Andy Hug, beating fighter from thailand:

Kickboxer and UFC vet Pat Smith losing to Seidokaikan Karate Fighter Satake:

Undefeated Shotokan Karate fighter Lyoto Machida knocking out Kickboxer Rich Franklin:

Undefeated Shotokan Karate fighter Lyoto Machida knocking out Kickboxer Stephan Bonner:

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K-1 champion and Karate Fighter Semmy Schilt beating Muay-Thai/Kickboxer Ernesto Hoost:

[Bluto]

Looks like you got a good argument going here guys! And with ChuteBoxe and Sincitysmallguy not being mods anymore nobody is going to delete it 

I'm getting some Popcorn! 

[Fury]

Hahahaha, here comes the excuses for Andy Hug. Hoost was 6'2 and barely 10 pounds heavier than Hug. Aerts is God. Ironic that the arguably two greatest K-1 fighters of all time are kickboxers. I'm a gigantic Hug fan, but his record against Hoost and Aerts was less than stellar.

[SinCitysmallGUY]

Looks like you got a good argument going here guys! And with ChuteBoxe and Sincitysmallguy not being mods anymore nobody is going to delete it 

I'm getting some Popcorn! 

If I was Mod I would how ever delete this post.

[americanbulldog]

Sorry, been busy at work...

Here is a list of the top teams in MMA.

Xtreme Couture:  Striking coaches, Ron Frazier, Sean Thompkins.  Boxing, Muay Thai respectively.

Greg Jackson:  Mike Winklejohn kickboxing (muay thai, MW is a former muay thai champ and Greg Jackson's only coach.  Winklejohn, a former karate stylist, teaches Muay Thai.

AMC:  Founded by Matt Hume and Haru Shimanishi.  Haru, a former karate stylist, became a muay thai fighter and has opened two HMCs (Hawaii Martial Arts Center).  He was Maurice Smith's coach during Mo's heydays.  (Still can't make me into a stand up fighter, though.)  Muay Thai

MMA Lab:  Founded by Royce Gracie, a Fairtex center, head striking coach, Adam Gillespey, student of Walter "The Sleeper" Michowlski.  A student of Kru Vut Kamnark.  Muay Thai. 

Minnesota MMA:  Home of Sean Sherk and Brock Lesnar.  Head coach, Gregg Nelson, student of Arjarn Chai Sirsuit, Muay Thai.

ATT Florida:  Striking coaches, Howard Jackson (1976 gold medalist boxing) and Cristian Toleque (Muay Thai)

Undisputed San Diego:  Striking coaches, Roberto Garcia, Jovan Jones, boxing.  Kru Anan Borigut, Muay Thai.

Boxing Club San Diego:  Head striking coach, Melchor Menor, Muay Thai world champion.

Chute Boxe:  Rudimar Fedrigo, Muay Thai.

Black House:  Home to UFC champion Anderson Silva, Vitor Belfort, Big Nog, Lil Nog, Nino Schrembi, and LYOTO MACHIDA.  NO KARATE ON THE CURRICULUM., started by Anderson, Carlos Barreto and Big Nog, previously called the MUAY THAI DREAM TEAM.

Team Quest:  On both Team Quest curriculums, no KARATE listed, but guess what, they have MUAY THAI. 

At Legends MMA:  Even though Bas was involved with founding it (he and Randy were only figureheads), interestingly enough, there is NO KARATE taught there.  And yes, Bas was a karate black belt, but why no karate? 

Big John McCarthys Ultimate training center:  NO KARATE on the curriculum, even though one of the instructors is a Karate black belt.  Guess what they do have there, you guessed it, Muay Thai. 

Matt Serra's striking coach:  Ray Longo teaches Matt boxing, and MUAY THAI. 

So in summation,

UFC lightweight champ trains in boxing, muay thai (Sean Sherk)

UFC Welterweight champ trains in boxing, muay thai (Matt Serra)

UFC Middleweight champ trains in muay thai (Anderson Silva)

UFC Lightheavyweight champ trains in boxing and muay thai (Rampage Jackson)

UFC Heavyweight champ trains in boxing and muay thai (Randy Couture)

Rather than post video after video countering RKBB, I thought it would be best to just show people what PROFESSIONAL fight teams are doing, and let them decide themselves. 

Intersetingly enough, a few examples given by RKBB as karate fighters, Lyoto Machida, GSP, Bas, former Karatekas are training guess what?  (BTW, Kru Phil Nurse is GSP's head striking coach, and he doesn't teach him Karate) 

[Bluto]

The biggest problem with the various styles of Karate is the absence of punches to the head and proper sparring. MOST styles seems to lack this.

That being said, I'm sure it's not a world of difference between a skilled Karate guy teaching low kicks versus a skilled Muay Thai coach doing the same thing.

With schools available to the general public, for commercial reasons it would probably be a better choice to teach Muay Thai rather than Karate that is more of yesterdays news and not the in thing right now. So that could be one reason.

[americanbulldog]

The biggest problem with the various styles of Karate is the absence of punches to the head and proper sparring. MOST styles seems to lack this.

That being said, I'm sure it's not a world of difference between a skilled Karate guy teaching low kicks versus a skilled Muay Thai coach doing the same thing.

With schools available to the general public, for commercial reasons it would probably be a better choice to teach Muay Thai rather than Karate that is more of yesterdays news and not the in thing right now. So that could be one reason.

This is the challenge with most TMAs.  Too much technique, not enough sparring, drilling that would increase set attributes.  Good thing about wrestling, judo, jiujitsu, muay thai is they are done in an "alive" setting against resisting opponents.  Sparring is a HUGE component to their curriculum.  What is the nonesense about "SELF DEFENSE."  Why is there different methods, isn't sparring and fighting self defense?  There are a lot of good karatekas, kung fu stylists, but they could be even better if they didn't innundate themselves with thousands of techniques, and simply drilled and sparred with techniques that are proven. 

[Bluto]

This is the challenge with most TMAs.  Too much technique, not enough sparring, drilling that would increase set attributes.  Good thing about wrestling, judo, jiujitsu, muay thai is they are done in an "alive" setting against resisting opponents.  Sparring is a HUGE component to their curriculum.  What is the nonesense about "SELF DEFENSE."  Why is there different methods, isn't sparring and fighting self defense?  There are a lot of good karatekas, kung fu stylists, but they could be even better if they didn't innundate themselves with thousands of techniques, and simply drilled and sparred with techniques that are proven. 

It's way better than most TMA but I wouldn't call it self-defense, I think there needs to be a different set up for that. I agree on the thousand technique part (which I've been talking about before to some extent in the "what defines a mixed martial artist-thread")
For self defense use even fewer techniques should be practiced.

[americanbulldog]

It's way better than most TMA but I wouldn't call it self-defense, I think there needs to be a different set up for that. I agree on the thousand technique part (which I've been talking about before to some extent in the "what defines a mixed martial artist-thread")
For self defense use even fewer techniques should be practiced.

Wow, we agree. 

[realkarateblackbelt]

This will be my last post on this topic.

A kick is a kick. The principal is the same whether you take Muay-Thai or Tae Kwon Do.
A roundhouse works the same way, as does a front kick. The power comes from proper pivoting of the hips...same with punching.

(Something most of these wrestlers in the UFC can't do...but they got a good enough ground game to pull the win most of the time.
I've always said a strong wrestler is the most dangerous single-style opponent.)

These ring-legal techniques (front kick, roundhouse, etc...) are tought in all the popular stand-up styles. No one style can claim a roundhouse kick or a front kick.

Now why are Muay-Thai, kickboxers, and Full-contact Karate guys more succsesful in MMA then?

The reason is simple. The afformentioned styles get people prepared to be hit. You can train a random yuppie all you want, but if they've never been hit they are going to crumble fast. In Knockdown Karate or Full-contact they practice with no protection, only barring head punches to prevent broken faces. Muay-Thai use gloves but allow face strikes. Kickboxing is sport karate or a combination of Muay-Thai and karate in it's origins. Point-sparring guys like Tae Kwon Do and Shotokan could POTENTIALLY be very good if they're natural fighters and do some kickboxing training to get their conditioning up to par (see Machida). They are usually very precise with their strikes (it's the nature of point sparring.)

There is very little useless technique in karate. If you eliminate all the various throat strikes and and katas you have kickboxing which is sport-karate. Karate was developed under time of war with Japan in okinawa. It was life or death. That's the reason they spend time striking the throat, kicking the groing, headbutting, etc. It's essentially pancratium in it's purest form.
Kata is very important for developing technique, proper shifting of the hips to generate power, endurance, etc. Guys that practice kata with a good instructor hit hard and precise. The principal is the same as typing or hitting a bag. You develop muscle memory through repetitive movements, so that complicated strikes become automatic. It's the same as learning anything really.

In sports where strikes to the throat and groing ar prohibited, you may as well take kickboxing, because kickboxing = that much more time you can spend on the principal ring-combat attacks (front kick, round kick, etc.) However, an expert karate fighter has the advantage of a greater arsenal of attacks (side-kick, spinning back-kick axe kick, etc.) and usually more precision. It takes longer to become effective with though because it's more comprehensive. In other words it's not for everyone.

Nonetheless, many of the best MMA fighters have an extensive background in karate. Bas Rutten is a karate expert. He's 5th degree in Kyokushin karate. Chuck Liddel is a blackbelt in a Kempo style that emphasizes full-contact training in heavy protection. Hence, his "kempo" tat. GSP trained in full-contact karate since he was a child to an adult until his sensei died; winning his first mma match against a boxer with "karate alone" to quote him. Lyoto Machida is an undefeated shotokan karate fighter with wins over Bonner, Penn, and Franklin. Recently he's started crosstraining in Muay-Thai, but his base is shotokan and he credits his wins to shotokan.
The current champ of K-1 is a Seidokaikan karate fighter; former champ Andy Hug was a Kyokushinkai.

Q: How many different styles of fighting have you trained in? Do you have any ranks? Who do you consider your teacher?

Bas: "Tae Kwon Do 2nd Degree, Kyokushin Karate 2nd Degree, Thai boxing yellow slip (just kidding), Kyokushin All round fighting 5th Degree"

"When I won my first amateur (MMA) fight, I was 16 years old and I beat a guy that was 25. I was only a Kyokushin karate fighter and the guy I fought was a boxer. At the time my ground skills were very poor, I didn’t know nothing on the ground.”  -Georges Saint Pierre[9]

"St. Pierre won his fight by knockout, going low with several leg kicks and then going high with a kick to the head. To this day many fans and much of the media has him pegged as a wrestler, or a Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighter, but he still considers himself a karate stylist at heart.

There were "Karate vs. Muay Thai fights" February 12, 1963. The 3 karate fighters from Oyama dojo (Kyokushin later) went to the Lumpinee Boxing Stadium in Thailand, and fought against 3 Muay Thai fighters. The 3 karate fighters' names are Tadashi Nakamura, Kenji Kurosaki and Akio Fujihira (as known as Noboru Osawa). Japan won by 2-1 then.

"Another victor for karate!" - Lyoto Machida

[Eric15210]

k-1 fighter ray sefo gets KTFO by washed up boxer

[americanbulldog]

This will be my last post on this topic.

A kick is a kick. The principal is the same whether you take Muay-Thai or Tae Kwon Do.
A roundhouse works the same way, as does a front kick. The power comes from proper pivoting of the hips...same with punching.

(Something most of these wrestlers in the UFC can't do...but they got a good enough ground game to pull the win most of the time.
I've always said a strong wrestler is the most dangerous single-style opponent.)

These ring-legal techniques (front kick, roundhouse, etc...) are tought in all the popular stand-up styles. No one style can claim a roundhouse kick or a front kick.

Now why are Muay-Thai, kickboxers, and Full-contact Karate guys more succsesful in MMA then?

The reason is simple. The afformentioned styles get people prepared to be hit. You can train a random yuppie all you want, but if they've never been hit they are going to crumble fast. In Knockdown Karate or Full-contact they practice with no protection, only barring head punches to prevent broken faces. Muay-Thai use gloves but allow face strikes. Kickboxing is sport karate or a combination of Muay-Thai and karate in it's origins. Point-sparring guys like Tae Kwon Do and Shotokan could POTENTIALLY be very good if they're natural fighters and do some kickboxing training to get their conditioning up to par (see Machida). They are usually very precise with their strikes (it's the nature of point sparring.)

There is very little useless technique in karate. If you eliminate all the various throat strikes and and katas you have kickboxing which is sport-karate. Karate was developed under time of war with Japan in okinawa. It was life or death. That's the reason they spend time striking the throat, kicking the groing, headbutting, etc. It's essentially pancratium in it's purest form.
Kata is very important for developing technique, proper shifting of the hips to generate power, endurance, etc. Guys that practice kata with a good instructor hit hard and precise. The principal is the same as typing or hitting a bag. You develop muscle memory through repetitive movements, so that complicated strikes become automatic. It's the same as learning anything really.

In sports where strikes to the throat and groing ar prohibited, you may as well take kickboxing, because kickboxing = that much more time you can spend on the principal ring-combat attacks (front kick, round kick, etc.) However, an expert karate fighter has the advantage of a greater arsenal of attacks (side-kick, spinning back-kick axe kick, etc.) and usually more precision. It takes longer to become effective with though because it's more comprehensive. In other words it's not for everyone.

Nonetheless, many of the best MMA fighters have an extensive background in karate. Bas Rutten is a karate expert. He's 5th degree in Kyokushin karate. Chuck Liddel is a blackbelt in a Kempo style that emphasizes full-contact training in heavy protection. Hence, his "kempo" tat. GSP trained in full-contact karate since he was a child to an adult until his sensei died; winning his first mma match against a boxer with "karate alone" to quote him. Lyoto Machida is an undefeated shotokan karate fighter with wins over Bonner, Penn, and Franklin. Recently he's started crosstraining in Muay-Thai, but his base is shotokan and he credits his wins to shotokan.
The current champ of K-1 is a Seidokaikan karate fighter; former champ Andy Hug was a Kyokushinkai.

Q: How many different styles of fighting have you trained in? Do you have any ranks? Who do you consider your teacher?

Bas: "Tae Kwon Do 2nd Degree, Kyokushin Karate 2nd Degree, Thai boxing yellow slip (just kidding), Kyokushin All round fighting 5th Degree"

"When I won my first amateur (MMA) fight, I was 16 years old and I beat a guy that was 25. I was only a Kyokushin karate fighter and the guy I fought was a boxer. At the time my ground skills were very poor, I didn’t know nothing on the ground.”  -Georges Saint Pierre[9]

"St. Pierre won his fight by knockout, going low with several leg kicks and then going high with a kick to the head. To this day many fans and much of the media has him pegged as a wrestler, or a Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighter, but he still considers himself a karate stylist at heart.

There were "Karate vs. Muay Thai fights" February 12, 1963. The 3 karate fighters from Oyama dojo (Kyokushin later) went to the Lumpinee Boxing Stadium in Thailand, and fought against 3 Muay Thai fighters. The 3 karate fighters' names are Tadashi Nakamura, Kenji Kurosaki and Akio Fujihira (as known as Noboru Osawa). Japan won by 2-1 then.

"Another victor for karate!" - Lyoto Machida

Walter Godin, a fixture in the martial arts community in Hawaii up to his death started incorporating muay thai into his training.  Godin's theories were honed while he served in the pen.  A buddy of mine, Brandyn, was a third degree black belt under Godin.  He know trains with Tommy Lam, another former kempo stylist who trains MUAY THAI exclusively.  BTW, both of them fight in shooto in Japan.  Where most of the fighters there are training more muay thai than Karate.  The clinching techniques of muay thai complements greco techneique. 

Are there a lot of techniques that could be streamlined?  Of course.  Does it mean it has no merit?  Of course not.  My point to the original post by RKBB, WHO ESPOUSED THAT KARATE WAS THE BE ALL END ALL OF STANDUP ARTS, is if you want proficiency in striking range for MMA:  perhaps Muay Thai was the expedient way to go. 

Truth be known, most folks would not like Muay Thai training.  It is brutal, conditioning is paramount, and hard sparring is not for everyone.  This is where Karate may offer something for practicioners who don't wisht to pursue combat sports as an advocation. 

[Bluto]

Truth be known, most folks would not like Muay Thai training.  It is brutal, conditioning is paramount, and hard sparring is not for everyone.  This is where Karate may offer something for practicioners who don't wisht to pursue combat sports as an advocation. 

Some Karate is as hard, if not harder. Using 'hardening' exercises, having that old sensei worship where they punish their students, and taking punches to the body full contact with no gloves.

[SinCitysmallGUY]

Some Karate is as hard, if not harder. Using 'hardening' exercises, having that old sensei worship where they punish their students, and taking punches to the body full contact with no gloves.

I doubt you can find a school like that anywhere here in the US. If so I would almost bet that their isnt even one in every state. So this example should be thrown out. Yet Muay Tai school are easily accesible and much more abundant.

[Bluto]

I doubt you can find a school like that anywhere here in the US. If so I would almost bet that their isnt even one in every state. So this example should be thrown out. Yet Muay Tai school are easily accesible and much more abundant.

its not about what is most accessable. my post is a response to the comment that muay thai is more brutal and karate training is weaker. this is not correct.

[Captain Equipoise]

Some Karate is as hard, if not harder. Using 'hardening' exercises, having that old sensei worship where they punish their students, and taking punches to the body full contact with no gloves.

Obviously you've never done Muay Thai..

[Bluto]

Obviously you've never done Muay Thai..

actually i have. for many years.

[americanbulldog]

its not about what is most accessable. my post is a response to the comment that muay thai is more brutal and karate training is weaker. this is not correct.

Muay Thai sparring is brutal.  Constantly banged up, bruises everywhere, punches to the face....throws, dinged up tibialis anterior from checking kicks, wrecked necks from getting figure eights done to you out of the plumb....  This isn't even the conditioning. 

[Bluto]

Muay Thai sparring is brutal.  Constantly banged up, bruises everywhere, punches to the face....throws, dinged up tibialis anterior from checking kicks, wrecked necks from getting figure eights done to you out of the plumb....  This isn't even the conditioning. 

it can be, it is what you make it. same with boxing or some styles of karate.

[Captain Equipoise]

actually i have. for many years.

Obviously not, since you have no idea how enduring the training is... warm ups alone put most people on their ass, and that's before any technique or sparring, I'm talking about just the cardio..

[Bluto]

Obviously not, since you have no idea how enduring the training is... warm ups alone put most people on their ass, and that's before any technique or sparring, I'm talking about just the cardio..

huh? you think the warm up in muay thai is more demanding than in other martial arts? 

i hope you're kidding, i have no patience to deal with some kinda troll on here the day of the ufc, i rather talk about that, please use appropriate smileys to avoid missunderstandings.

[Captain Equipoise]

huh? you think the warm up in muay thai is more demanding than in other martial arts? 

i hope you're kidding, i have no patience to deal with some kinda troll on here the day of the ufc, i rather talk about that, please use appropriate smileys to avoid missunderstandings.

LOL.. this coming from the kid that spends 19 hours online at Getbig and gets owned in every post!!? Ahahahaha...good one, go join a McDojo.. you just might learn something.

[Bluto]

LOL.. this coming from the kid that spends 19 hours online at Getbig and gets owned in every post!!? Ahahahaha...good one, go join a McDojo.. you just might learn something.

I just wanted to make sure it wasn't an attempt at being humerous, but apparantely you're serious.

So you stick by your opinion that Muay Thai, is tougher than other martial arts, because Muay Thai, have a tougher warm up than other martial arts.

Interesting.