Author Topic: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???  (Read 5877 times)

columbusdude82

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Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« on: October 12, 2007, 03:47:12 PM »
Well, did he? Let's read the Gospels. Mark and John are completely silent on the birth of Jesus and don't tell us any stories, so let's look at Matthew and Luke.

First, Matthew (Chapter 2):

Quote
8He (Herod) sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."

 9After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east[e] went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 12And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

 13When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." 14So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."[f]

Next, Luke (Chapter 2):

Quote
21On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.

 22When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"), 24and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."...
 39When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. 40And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

Make up your minds guys. Did the Baby Jesus go to Egypt or didn't he?

Deicide

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 04:18:56 PM »
Well, did he? Let's read the Gospels. Mark and John are completely silent on the birth of Jesus and don't tell us any stories, so let's look at Matthew and Luke.

First, Matthew (Chapter 2):

Next, Luke (Chapter 2):

Make up your minds guys. Did the Baby Jesus go to Egypt or didn't he?

Just one of dozens of examples of incongruities and evidence that the Gospels are a load of bad fiction. And yet this is the only 'biographical' information on the godman. We have nothing else save the Gospels. Another one is the contradiction in birth dates:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/quirinius.html

Take the time to read it, very interesting and well worth the time...
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beatmaster

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 04:50:02 PM »

well guys, this place is full of contradictions about the big book

http://www.evilbible.com/
are you delusional?

Butterbean

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2007, 03:00:03 PM »
Well, did he? Let's read the Gospels. Mark and John are completely silent on the birth of Jesus and don't tell us any stories, so let's look at Matthew and Luke.

First, Matthew (Chapter 2):

Next, Luke (Chapter 2):

Make up your minds guys. Did the Baby Jesus go to Egypt or didn't he?
Yes.

Matthew was written mainly to the Jews so he probably found it very important to include the account of the Magi and Herod and the flight to Egypt to show them how (at least) 2 prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament were fulfilled.  This would have had great importance for the Jews.

Luke's account not mentioning Herod/Egypt does not preclude it from having happened (Luke was written mainly to the Gentiles).

Some people tend to confuse the shepherds in Luke w/the Magi in Matthew.  This makes it hard for them to realize that Jesus could have been almost (but not past according to the Magi's info regarding the exact time the star appeared) 2 years old when the Magi saw Him.  In fact, Matthew states that when the Magi did see Him, He was in a house (not a manger).  The shepherds were the ones that saw him in a manger (as an infant).

Another thing to consider is that Herod had ordered all boys ages 2 and younger in Bethlehem and the vicinity to be killed.  Why would he do that unless he got info from the Magi that the star had appeared between zero and 2 years before (more than likely closer to the 2 year mark)? 

If the Magi didn't see Jesus until 2 years or even one year after He had been born, the family had plenty of time to go to Jerusalem, back to Nazareth, then back to Bethlehem.

So as I see it, yes, the child (somewhere under 2 years old) Jesus went to Egypt.


Thanks for the bible study inspiration columbusdude.  It made me excited for Christmas :)
R

Deicide

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2007, 05:34:19 PM »
Yes.

Matthew was written mainly to the Jews so he probably found it very important to include the account of the Magi and Herod and the flight to Egypt to show them how (at least) 2 prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament were fulfilled.  This would have had great importance for the Jews.

Luke's account not mentioning Herod/Egypt does not preclude it from having happened (Luke was written mainly to the Gentiles).

Some people tend to confuse the shepherds in Luke w/the Magi in Matthew.  This makes it hard for them to realize that Jesus could have been almost (but not past according to the Magi's info regarding the exact time the star appeared) 2 years old when the Magi saw Him.  In fact, Matthew states that when the Magi did see Him, He was in a house (not a manger).  The shepherds were the ones that saw him in a manger (as an infant).

Another thing to consider is that Herod had ordered all boys ages 2 and younger in Bethlehem and the vicinity to be killed.  Why would he do that unless he got info from the Magi that the star had appeared between zero and 2 years before (more than likely closer to the 2 year mark)? 

If the Magi didn't see Jesus until 2 years or even one year after He had been born, the family had plenty of time to go to Jerusalem, back to Nazareth, then back to Bethlehem.

So as I see it, yes, the child (somewhere under 2 years old) Jesus went to Egypt.


Thanks for the bible study inspiration columbusdude.  It made me excited for Christmas :)

 ::)
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Butterbean

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R

Deicide

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2007, 06:26:10 PM »
:)

You don't consider the NT to be an historically accurate document do you?
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columbusdude82

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2007, 06:54:30 PM »
Stella, do you know of any historical records telling of Herod's slaughter of the children? You'd think historians and chroniclers would have written about an event like that...

And you skip over the fact that the itineraries mentioned by the two gospels are contradictory:

Matthew says "Bethlehem - Egypt - return to Nazareth after Herod's death"

Luke says "Bethlehem - Jerusalem - Nazareth"

Your itinerary is Bethlehem - Jerusalem - Nazareth - Bethlehem - Egypt?????? Why the second trip to Bethlehem? Just so the two gospels don't seem to contradict each other?

Deicide

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2007, 07:05:36 PM »
Stella, do you know of any historical records telling of Herod's slaughter of the children? You'd think historians and chroniclers would have written about an event like that...

And you skip over the fact that the itineraries mentioned by the two gospels are contradictory:

Matthew says "Bethlehem - Egypt - return to Nazareth after Herod's death"

Luke says "Bethlehem - Jerusalem - Nazareth"

Your itinerary is Bethlehem - Jerusalem - Nazareth - Bethlehem - Egypt?????? Why the second trip to Bethlehem? Just so the two gospels don't seem to contradict each other?

Herod's slaughter of the innocents was copied right out of the Book of Exodus, like a whole bunch of other stuff in the NT.
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columbusdude82

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2007, 07:11:49 PM »
Well, that may be, but getting back on topic:

Stella, is your itinerary speculation or revelation? What kind of Roving Gnome (c) would send this poor family to Jerusalem to the temple, then back home to Galilee, then to Bethlehem for NO OTHER REASON than to meet some rich old guys following a star (that no other records mention), then off to Egypt to hide?

Presumably, since they couldn't find any lodging in Bethlehem the first time around, they didn't have any connections there, so did they stay out on the streets the second time as well? And all just to meet the rich old guys? Why couldn't they have traveled a few miles north to Nazareth, considering they'd come so far?

Methinks Stella needs to reconsider her Travelocity...

Deicide

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2007, 09:01:20 PM »
Well, that may be, but getting back on topic:

Stella, is your itinerary speculation or revelation? What kind of Roving Gnome (c) would send this poor family to Jerusalem to the temple, then back home to Galilee, then to Bethlehem for NO OTHER REASON than to meet some rich old guys following a star (that no other records mention), then off to Egypt to hide?

Presumably, since they couldn't find any lodging in Bethlehem the first time around, they didn't have any connections there, so did they stay out on the streets the second time as well? And all just to meet the rich old guys? Why couldn't they have traveled a few miles north to Nazareth, considering they'd come so far?

Methinks Stella needs to reconsider her Travelocity...

Nazareth didn't exist at the time. See my thread on the subject.
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columbusdude82

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2007, 09:07:55 PM »
Nazareth didn't exist at the time. See my thread on the subject.

Yes I've seen it. There's also the point made by Prof. James Tabor about how Nazareth was, at the time, a tiny ramshackle village on the outskirts of Sipphorim (sp?).

BTW Tabor is a very good, very enthusiastic Biblical scholar. I highly recommend his writing. But getting back on topic, I am just wondering how Stella justifies her itinerary. She sacrifices common sense and parsimonious planning only to be able to claim that the gospels didn't contradict each other.

nzhardgain

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2007, 09:21:08 PM »
You dont honor bets columbus"dude"?

Deicide

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2007, 09:25:17 PM »
Yes I've seen it. There's also the point made by Prof. James Tabor about how Nazareth was, at the time, a tiny ramshackle village on the outskirts of Sipphorim (sp?).

BTW Tabor is a very good, very enthusiastic Biblical scholar. I highly recommend his writing. But getting back on topic, I am just wondering how Stella justifies her itinerary. She sacrifices common sense and parsimonious planning only to be able to claim that the gospels didn't contradict each other.

She's a fundy, what else do you expect?
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Butterbean

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2007, 11:15:47 AM »
columbusdude, maybe it will help you to see what I'm saying if you read Matthew Chapter 2 starting at the beginning:

-----------------------------------
Matthew 2

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.  When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born.  "In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
 " 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
      are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
   for out of you will come a ruler
      who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"

Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared.  He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."

After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.  When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

The Escape to Egypt

When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.  Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
   "A voice is heard in Ramah,
      weeping and great mourning,
   Rachel weeping for her children
      and refusing to be comforted,
   because they are no more."

The Return to Nazareth

After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said, "Get up, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child's life are dead."

So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."

--------------------------------

Coldude, do you see that the Magi didn't even initially speak w/Herod until sometime after Jesus was born?  They went to Jerusalem from the East and were asking around about Him.  Herod heard about it and consulted w/a bunch of people.  Eventually he talked to the Magi.  Then he sent them to Bethlehem.  Then the Magi went to the "house" - not the manger...they weren't hanging out in the manger anymore - this had to have been at least a month after Christ's birth as the purification ritual was over a a month, right?  The fact that Herod issued a command for all boys 2 years old and under has some meaning don't you agree?
R

columbusdude82

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2007, 12:38:56 PM »
Yes, I have read Matthew 2. The question in this thread is: did the Baby Jesus go to Egypt or not?

Deicide

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2007, 05:51:42 PM »
Fucking lame; the NT can't even get baby Jesus' birth date right and Stella goes on about more magic nonsense... ::)
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MCWAY

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2007, 02:48:32 AM »
Stella, do you know of any historical records telling of Herod's slaughter of the children? You'd think historians and chroniclers would have written about an event like that...

And you skip over the fact that the itineraries mentioned by the two gospels are contradictory:

Matthew says "Bethlehem - Egypt - return to Nazareth after Herod's death"

Luke says "Bethlehem - Jerusalem - Nazareth"

Your itinerary is Bethlehem - Jerusalem - Nazareth - Bethlehem - Egypt?????? Why the second trip to Bethlehem? Just so the two gospels don't seem to contradict each other?

How are they contradictory?



Luke says "Bethlehem - Jerusalem - Nazareth"
- The events that happened shortly before and after Jesus' birth

Matthew says "Bethlehem - Egypt - return to Nazareth after Herod's death"
The events that happened approximately two years later.


Luke says that Joseph, Mary, and the infant Jesus made their FIRST trip to the temple, after Mary's purification was complete (Luke 2:22). Once that was done, they went back to Nazareth. Since going to the Temple was a YEARLY event (Luke 2:41), it would appear that, on their THIRD trip with Jesus, the edict came from Herod to slaughter all boys 2 years old and under.

Some people tend to confuse the shepherds in Luke w/the Magi in Matthew.  This makes it hard for them to realize that Jesus could have been almost (but not past according to the Magi's info regarding the exact time the star appeared) 2 years old when the Magi saw Him.  In fact, Matthew states that when the Magi did see Him, He was in a house (not a manger).  The shepherds were the ones that saw him in a manger (as an infant).

I don't think people confuse the shepherds and the wise men. The Christmas story is often told and depicted (i.e. Nativity scenes), with the wise men seeing baby Jesus, immediately after the shepherds do. But, reading both Matthew and Luke doesn't show that such was the case.


Coldude, do you see that the Magi didn't even initially speak w/Herod until sometime after Jesus was born?  They went to Jerusalem from the East and were asking around about Him.  Herod heard about it and consulted w/a bunch of people.  Eventually he talked to the Magi.  Then he sent them to Bethlehem.  Then the Magi went to the "house" - not the manger...they weren't hanging out in the manger anymore - this had to have been at least a month after Christ's birth as the purification ritual was over a a month, right?  The fact that Herod issued a command for all boys 2 years old and under has some meaning don't you agree?


That period is about six weeks (Lev.12:1-4).

It's really simple: Luke tells of the events that happens when Jesus was a small infant; Matthew tells of what happened, when Jesus was about a 2-year old toddler. These gospels complement one another; therefore, to get a more complete picture of the events of Jesus' early life, it helps to use BOTH Gospels.

MCWAY

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2007, 02:55:19 AM »
Fucking lame; the NT can't even get baby Jesus' birth date right and Stella goes on about more magic nonsense... ::)


Herod's slaughter of the innocents was copied right out of the Book of Exodus, like a whole bunch of other stuff in the NT.


And, the chapter and verse in Exodus, that states all males 2 years and under were to be killed, would be.........

You got some facts to support either of these statements, or is this yet another of your speculations that you can't back?

columbusdude82

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2007, 03:42:02 AM »
McWay, if what you are saying is true, why the second trip to Bethlehem????

MCWAY

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2007, 03:57:17 AM »
McWay, if what you are saying is true, why the second trip to Bethlehem????

Bethlehem and Jerusalem were only about 5 miles apart. My guess would be that Bethlehem was better suited for lodging.


columbusdude82

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2007, 04:11:20 AM »
So we are now in the realm of speculation.

MCWAY

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2007, 04:31:57 AM »
So we are now in the realm of speculation.

Not really!!! They went to Bethlehem once to find lodging; why wouldn't they go back again, if they are making the annual trip to the Temple in Jeursalem.

You made the claim that the accounts were contradictory, based on your assumption that they are talking about the exact same time period, regarding Jesus' early life and that Joseph and Mary only made one trip to Jerusalem.

But, as Luke 2:41 states, they went to Jerusalem every year. So, that explains the "second trip to Bethlehem", given its close proximity to Jerusalem. Although, by my count, it would have been their THIRD trip: The first, when Jesus was six weeks old; the second, when Jesus was one; and the third when Jesus was two.


columbusdude82

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2007, 04:43:58 AM »
Nice job at coming up with an explanation. It is speculation because it is not substantiated by the accounts in the gospels (quoted in the first post). Matthew 2 (quoted by Stella above) gives the impression that the wise men's visit occurred in the immediate aftermath of the birth of Jesus: "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem..."

It doesn't say ANYTHING about a time lag, so that is purely speculation on your part, in order to convince yourself and others that the gospels don't contradict each other.


columbusdude82

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Re: Did Baby Jesus Go to Egypt???
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2007, 04:46:03 AM »
PS: McWay, you seem to have taken advanced courses in Christian apologetics from a Southern Baptist seminary ;) I'd like to see you take a crack at another thread on here, entitled "The authority of scripture, if only they could agree." It will be interesting to see what you have to say there!