Author Topic: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?  (Read 20994 times)

Butterbean

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2007, 12:44:32 PM »
ARE THE CHRISTIANS AWARE THAT WHEN THEY SAY GOD KILLED PEOPLE, OR WAS JUSTIFIED IT FULLY CONTRADICTS AN ALL LOVING GOD, AND FREE WILL?

Do you mean it contradicts free will in that maybe those people wanted to live ???




OzmO, and usmoke, sometimes I'll read about something in the bible, or see something happen and it can make me scratch my head and think, "Why Lord?"

But I realize that He is omniscient and I'm not.  I think that maybe be what nzhardgain is trying to say.  We don't know everything but God does.
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OzmO

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2007, 01:33:39 PM »
Do you mean it contradicts free will in that maybe those people wanted to live ???




OzmO, and usmoke, sometimes I'll read about something in the bible, or see something happen and it can make me scratch my head and think, "Why Lord?"

But I realize that He is omniscient and I'm not.  I think that maybe be what nzhardgain is trying to say.  We don't know everything but God does.

I totally believe that.    But in this case it doesn't apply, becuase what happened here wasn't God ordering it, it was the victors writing that God ordered them to escape any accountability for such a despicable evil act........Killing innocent children, 2-3-4 year olds,  braining babies, etc. goes against everything GOD teaches. 

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2007, 05:39:58 PM »
Do you mean it contradicts free will in that maybe those people wanted to live ???




OzmO, and usmoke, sometimes I'll read about something in the bible, or see something happen and it can make me scratch my head and think, "Why Lord?"

But I realize that He is omniscient and I'm not.  I think that maybe be what nzhardgain is trying to say.  We don't know everything but God does.

free will means that god is seperate from our decisions and cannot impact our actions, hence free will. if god could intervene in our lives we are ultimately not in control, thus we have no free will.

if god is PURE GOOD, he cannot commit acts of evil, see my devil analogy. its simple logic. ive said before that when you start describing attributes of god your entering unknown territory. if it is omipotent etc.. then any attribute you do or dont prescribe are incorrect, since we are finite and imperfect, our logic and thinking wouldnt apply.

nzhardgain

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2007, 11:01:04 PM »
free will means that god is seperate from our decisions and cannot impact our actions, hence free will. if god could intervene in our lives we are ultimately not in control, thus we have no free will.

if god is PURE GOOD, he cannot commit acts of evil, see my devil analogy. its simple logic. ive said before that when you start describing attributes of god your entering unknown territory. if it is omipotent etc.. then any attribute you do or dont prescribe are incorrect, since we are finite and imperfect, our logic and thinking wouldnt apply.
you really need to stick to one point and one point only in your posts.Its hard to answer you when you have 6 different points or questions in your posts.Youre all over the place.

I suspect after reading your attitude to being corrected by various posters here,that you wont like the answers provided.
Why waste my time?


nzhardgain

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2007, 11:03:52 PM »
I totally believe that.    But in this case it doesn't apply, becuase what happened here wasn't God ordering it, it was the victors writing that God ordered them to escape any accountability for such a despicable evil act........Killing innocent children, 2-3-4 year olds,  braining babies, etc. goes against everything GOD teaches. 

Hey buddy

You were there?
Whats clear to me is that you have no personal relationship with your maker.You dont put trust in the decisions that he makes.Do you even pray?
You know that the flood wiped away everyone right?You surely know when Sodom and Gomarrah was laid to waste  noone got out?
Never grieve for the wicked.You surely know whats in store as predicted in revelations that there will be a huge bloody battle in the future.
Make sure your paths are straight my man.I will try to do the same.

MCWAY

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #105 on: November 11, 2007, 01:36:31 AM »
I totally believe that.    But in this case it doesn't apply, becuase what happened here wasn't God ordering it, it was the victors writing that God ordered them to escape any accountability for such a despicable evil act........Killing innocent children, 2-3-4 year olds,  braining babies, etc. goes against everything GOD teaches. 

You're not making any sense, here. The account states that God rejected Saul as king, ultimately replacing him with David, because Saul did not obey God's command fully. Saul spared the Amalekite king and kept the prize livestock, silver, and gold for himself. His orders from God were to destroy everything and everyone.

If this were just about the victors writing the story, keeping the loot would not have been an offense, let alone an offense severe enough to cost Saul his throne. The surviving Amalekites repopulated and once agaiin started assaulting Israel. So, Saul didn't carry out God's instructions.


Plus, you keep forgetting that all of this happened, because the Amalekites repeatedly attacked Israel without provocation, all starting as Israel left Egypt. They attacked the weakest of Israel's population, specifically the elderly, women, and children. The Amalekites were far from boy scouts, and as we've discussed before, they continued this type of behavior against Israel (and Lord know who else) for over 300 years. Had they repented, this attack from Saul wouldn't have occured. However, they didn't. The Lord decided that enough was enough and the Amalekites got pounded, as a result.

Yes, it's sad what happen to the children. But, that's what's terrible about sinful behavior. The Amalekites paid the price and so did their children.

free will means that god is seperate from our decisions and cannot impact our actions, hence free will. if god could intervene in our lives we are ultimately not in control, thus we have no free will.

if god is PURE GOOD, he cannot commit acts of evil, see my devil analogy. its simple logic. ive said before that when you start describing attributes of god your entering unknown territory. if it is omipotent etc.. then any attribute you do or dont prescribe are incorrect, since we are finite and imperfect, our logic and thinking wouldnt apply.

Free will means nothing of the sort. If you have the freedom to make a choice, you also take the consequence (good or bad) for that choice. Just because you suffer the bad consequence of a decision you made doesn't mean you don't have free will, especially if you've been warned that such adverse consequences would/could happen. You don't complain about not having free will, if you make a good decision and reap the rewards, now do you?

Man's evil nature always seeks to break God's laws, without suffering the consequences. When bad things happen, now God is the big meanie. That's simply not the case. Just as the good things we do can bless others, the bad things we do can curse others.

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #106 on: November 11, 2007, 04:37:38 PM »
you really need to stick to one point and one point only in your posts.Its hard to answer you when you have 6 different points or questions in your posts.Youre all over the place.

I suspect after reading your attitude to being corrected by various posters here,that you wont like the answers provided.
Why waste my time?



LMAO!!! who corrected me? loco made some valid points about christianity but its based on your interpretation then chose not to respond to my reply, the same thing with mcway. everyone has avoided my questions, my two posts are still sitting there, and the one answer by MCWAY was as irrational, and avoidant as you could make it.

trust me, i dont need you to explain anything with regards to logic or reason to me, this thread is totally off the wall. you got bodies exploding on impact, two different descriptions of someones death.

then you have people arguing that even though judas did not participate in the purchasing process whatsoever, he somehow bought the field? why is it so unclear, and cryptic?


ill lay it out again for you. you cant have an ALL loving god that condems people to death, or even feels negative feelings, like anger and jealousy, sadness etc... these are negative emotions and are not GOOD. for example you cant have omipotence if there is even one thing you cannot do, if there is, you  are not omnipotent. this logic seems to evade most the christians i have talked too. you also cant have god interacting or changing the course of peoples life if we have free will. this contradicts free will, and also means that god does not know the future, another incosistency. there are more, but ill wait for your reply, please answer my questions directly, or arguments if you will.

how can god do evil, or commit negativity if he is ALL LOVING, how can god impact the course of peoples actions, if we have free will?

simple questions.



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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #107 on: November 11, 2007, 05:00:42 PM »
Hey buddy

You were there?
Whats clear to me is that you have no personal relationship with your maker.You dont put trust in the decisions that he makes.Do you even pray?
You know that the flood wiped away everyone right?You surely know when Sodom and Gomarrah was laid to waste  noone got out?
Never grieve for the wicked.You surely know whats in store as predicted in revelations that there will be a huge bloody battle in the future.
Make sure your paths are straight my man.I will try to do the same.

It's clear to you i have no personal relationship with my maker only becuase i don't subscribe to a book of stories as the 100% word of god.   It looks like you do and you devalue your God given common sense with statements like "god is smarter then you"  I'm sorry for you.

And then when someone has a differing opinion or belief outside that of yours now you question if they even pray.

It's very telling of you.

Do you believe the bible word for word?

Do you believe the earth and the universe is only about 13,000 years old?

Do you believe there was a worldwide deluge that killed every living thing on earth save the "2" of every animal in the ark?

I'm starting to think you do.

It's ok if you do.  More power to you. But don't you assume for one minute that just becuase someone does not share the same beliefs you do that they don't have a personal relationship with God,don't pray or haven't read the bible. 

It shows your ignorance more than anything.



 

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #108 on: November 11, 2007, 05:11:47 PM »
anyone who beleives the universe is not billions of years old is a moron, plain and simple, that should kill the 100% word of god right there.


the book was written a long time ago people, when gods where what people needed to feel secure, where is this god now?

where is he, when children are burning alive, dying starving. why would he intervene back then but allow everyone to suffer now.

the most common answer is because of sin. but wait, isnt god all knowing? meaning he knows the past present and future? if that is so then how come it didnt know that man would sin? was god unaware of this?

this shit is so illogical it hurts my head sometimes. i love arguments for god, but not fairytales.

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #109 on: November 11, 2007, 05:15:38 PM »
You're not making any sense, here. The account states that God rejected Saul as king, ultimately replacing him with David, because Saul did not obey God's command fully. Saul spared the Amalekite king and kept the prize livestock, silver, and gold for himself. His orders from God were to destroy everything and everyone.

If this were just about the victors writing the story, keeping the loot would not have been an offense, let alone an offense severe enough to cost Saul his throne. The surviving Amalekites repopulated and once agaiin started assaulting Israel. So, Saul didn't carry out God's instructions.


Plus, you keep forgetting that all of this happened, because the Amalekites repeatedly attacked Israel without provocation, all starting as Israel left Egypt. They attacked the weakest of Israel's population, specifically the elderly, women, and children. The Amalekites were far from boy scouts, and as we've discussed before, they continued this type of behavior against Israel (and Lord know who else) for over 300 years. Had they repented, this attack from Saul wouldn't have occured. However, they didn't. The Lord decided that enough was enough and the Amalekites got pounded, as a result.

Yes, it's sad what happen to the children. But, that's what's terrible about sinful behavior. The Amalekites paid the price and so did their children.


Why is it that you and everyone else seem to always go back to what the adult Amalekites were doing?  It's not about them.

It doesn't matter how evil or barbaric they were.  What matters is innocent children and regardless of children paying the price of their parents evilness killing them is still wrong.   In every case killing the adults seems justified, but you cannot justify killing the children unless you do it on God's orders....that's why i say history is written by the victors in this case, otherwise the Jews would be known and child murdering evil bastards.  But blame it on God, and people can accept that like yourself.  Well i don't.  If God is all good and all loving he would not order the slaughter of children.  What's sad is that so many people turn a blind eye to what killing children really is as if to glaze over the truth of what it is. 

What if that happened in this day in age?  It would be total outrage.  It would be hailed as pure evil.  And yet, becuase "god" ordered it it's justified.  Children do not have to pay for their parents sins with their lives.  There is nothing that can justify the slaughtering of children and becuase of that (among other things) unfortunately the Bible is not the 100% truth of God.

Everyone of you folks dance around the fact that killing children is wrong and "god" supposedly ordered they should be killed.  No one wants to look at what that really means, especially when I describe it, i get accused of making a weak argument.  It's almost hilarious to think that.  How can you sit here and tell me there was anything right about slaughtering thousands of children?


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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #110 on: November 11, 2007, 05:22:23 PM »
Why is it that you and everyone else seem to always go back to what the adult Amalekites were doing?  It's not about them.

It doesn't matter how evil or barbaric they were.  What matters is innocent children and regardless of children paying the price of their parents evilness killing them is still wrong.   In every case killing the adults seems justified, but you cannot justify killing the children unless you do it on God's orders....that's why i say history is written by the victors in this case, otherwise the Jews would be known and child murdering evil bastards.  But blame it on God, and people can accept that like yourself.  Well i don't.  If God is all good and all loving he would not order the slaughter of children.  What's sad is that so many people turn a blind eye to what killing children really is as if to glaze over the truth of what it is. 

What if that happened in this day in age?  It would be total outrage.  It would be hailed as pure evil.  And yet, becuase "god" ordered it it's justified.  Children do not have to pay for their parents sins with their lives.  There is nothing that can justify the slaughtering of children and becuase of that (among other things) unfortunately the Bible is not the 100% truth of God.

Everyone of you folks dance around the fact that killing children is wrong and "god" supposedly ordered they should be killed.  No one wants to look at what that really means, especially when I describe it, i get accused of making a weak argument.  It's almost hilarious to think that.  How can you sit here and tell me there was anything right about slaughtering thousands of children?




because god is hyperlogical. somehow its ok for him to order children to be murdered, yet with our logic it is not. ::), but wait, he is a pure, and all loving, so the kids he created needed to be put to death, because he messed up when he wrote that part of the script, just a little mistake by a perfect being. we should throw the logic GOD gave us out the window and accept a book where you have to follow ten rules or go to hell, which was created by god.

wait a minute, could it be more rational that this book was used to control people? that its made up? that it contains some universal truth, but is mainly a control mechanism?


i also love this doosy. if all is eternal, that is there is no end, then what the fuck does anything we do matter? in eternity it would not, since it would never end.

loco

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2007, 06:14:16 PM »
LMAO!!! who corrected me? loco made some valid points about christianity but its based on your interpretation then chose not to respond to my reply, the same thing with mcway. everyone has avoided my questions, my two posts are still sitting there, and the one answer by MCWAY was as irrational, and avoidant as you could make it.

trust me, i dont need you to explain anything with regards to logic or reason to me, this thread is totally off the wall. you got bodies exploding on impact, two different descriptions of someones death.

usmokepole,
"bodies exploding on impact"?  I must admit, that made me laugh.   ;D 

Hey, I haven't replied to your posts only because I haven't had time.  I have been busy at work, while reading and responding to posts here, in the political board and on the nutrition board.  I'll get back to you.

BTW, Judas' body decomposing, then falling off the tree is one possibility.  But there are many other possibilities, like Judas hanging himself on a tree near a cliff, like Tom Hanks tried to do in that movie "Cast Away."  Then, from the strong winds and the earthquake that took place after Jesus' death, the rope or the branch from which Judas was hanging could have easily snapped, sending Judas' body down the cliff, hitting rocks on its way down, and finally hitting the rocks below.

We could probably think of many other possibilities.  But we do know from the Bible that 1.  He hanged himself, and 2.  His body fell and hit something and his insides spilled out.  Both 1 and 2 are possible, both are true.

nzhardgain

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #112 on: November 11, 2007, 06:37:07 PM »


It's clear to you i have no personal relationship with my maker only becuase i don't subscribe to a book of stories as the 100% word of god.   It looks like you do and you devalue your God given common sense with statements like "god is smarter then you"  I'm sorry for you.

And then when someone has a differing opinion or belief outside that of yours now you question if they even pray.

It's very telling of you.

Do you believe the bible word for word?

Do you believe the earth and the universe is only about 13,000 years old?

Do you believe there was a worldwide deluge that killed every living thing on earth save the "2" of every animal in the ark?

I'm starting to think you do.

It's ok if you do.  More power to you. But don't you assume for one minute that just becuase someone does not share the same beliefs you do that they don't have a personal relationship with God,don't pray or haven't read the bible. 

It shows your ignorance more than anything.



 
Answers to your questions

1.I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God.Surely you must of figured that out by now :)
2.No ,i believe the creative days werent literal 24 hr days.I know some other christians do believe that ,to me its a minor thing compared to say ,trying to act like an all knowing God.
3.Of course i believe the flood came.Of course you will deny it.Thats your role as an opposer.

I dont believe you pray to the same God as me bud.Whatever you worship, its inferior.You dont have the same hope as me,i dont even think you really know the word well enough to even come challenge anyone here.But keep opposing.You reflect your god.He must be proud.
Done with you ,take care .

nzhardgain

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #113 on: November 11, 2007, 06:52:46 PM »
LMAO!!! who corrected me? loco made some valid points about christianity but its based on your interpretation then chose not to respond to my reply, the same thing with mcway. everyone has avoided my questions, my two posts are still sitting there, and the one answer by MCWAY was as irrational, and avoidant as you could make it.

trust me, i dont need you to explain anything with regards to logic or reason to me, this thread is totally off the wall. you got bodies exploding on impact, two different descriptions of someones death.

then you have people arguing that even though judas did not participate in the purchasing process whatsoever, he somehow bought the field? why is it so unclear, and cryptic?


ill lay it out again for you. you cant have an ALL loving god that condems people to death, or even feels negative feelings, like anger and jealousy, sadness etc... these are negative emotions and are not GOOD. for example you cant have omipotence if there is even one thing you cannot do, if there is, you  are not omnipotent. this logic seems to evade most the christians i have talked too. you also cant have god interacting or changing the course of peoples life if we have free will. this contradicts free will, and also means that god does not know the future, another incosistency. there are more, but ill wait for your reply, please answer my questions directly, or arguments if you will.

how can god do evil, or commit negativity if he is ALL LOVING, how can god impact the course of peoples actions, if we have free will?

simple questions.



I thought the Judas question was answered comprehensively by McWay.Nothing cryptic about that.

Question for you,when you were growing up did your parents ever tell you not to play in traffic or put your hands in the fire?Bear with me,time is short, im freakin busy.



OzmO

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2007, 07:49:12 PM »
Answers to your questions

1.I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God.Surely you must of figured that out by now :)
2.No ,i believe the creative days werent literal 24 hr days.I know some other christians do believe that ,to me its a minor thing compared to say ,trying to act like an all knowing God.
3.Of course i believe the flood came.Of course you will deny it.Thats your role as an opposer.


I asked you if you believe it word for word.  do you?  If you don't then you are picking and choosing and no different than me in that regard.

My role?  How dramatic.  ::)

Quote
I dont believe you pray to the same God as me bud.Whatever you worship, its inferior.You dont have the same hope as me,i dont even think you really know the word well enough to even come challenge anyone here.But keep opposing.You reflect your god.He must be proud.
Done with you ,take care .

Good,  I'm glad you are done with me.  For the most part you've been more of a waste of time as you lack the knowledge in the bible to even give a reasonable argument aside from condemning, condescending and attacking.  But that's how it is with many thumpers who are drunk from their righteousness so much so they become blind to their own soul's ability to see objectively.

Quote
I dont believe you pray to the same God as me bud.Whatever you worship, its inferior.

 ::)

How old are you anyway?

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #115 on: November 11, 2007, 08:12:01 PM »
so much for judge lest ye be judged. ;D. dude cant even follow jesus's word, let alone form a cogent argument.

now hes comparing god to human parents? lol

you do know that its logically impossible to be omi-everything as you claim your god to be right?


MCWAY, has answered none of the questions posed, he is speculating, that maybe he decomposed, and maybe he fell, and maybe he burst into pieces. then what they might of meant was that because it was judas's money, that maybe he was responsible for the purchase, which makes no sense.



by the way, i knew you wouldnt answer my questions or choose to engage me, keep living in your dream world and avoiding conflicting information. maybe that way you wont have to think for yourself, since your life is laid out for you.

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #116 on: November 12, 2007, 01:18:08 AM »
Why is it that you and everyone else seem to always go back to what the adult Amalekites were doing?  It's not about them.

It doesn't matter how evil or barbaric they were.  What matters is innocent children and regardless of children paying the price of their parents evilness killing them is still wrong.   In every case killing the adults seems justified, but you cannot justify killing the children unless you do it on God's orders....that's why i say history is written by the victors in this case, otherwise the Jews would be known and child murdering evil bastards.  But blame it on God, and people can accept that like yourself.  Well i don't.  If God is all good and all loving he would not order the slaughter of children.  What's sad is that so many people turn a blind eye to what killing children really is as if to glaze over the truth of what it is. 

Nobody's turning a blind eye to anything. Unfortunately, when you get involved in war, stuff like this happens. When we dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima, do you think that bomb merely killed the adult Japanese?

Like it or not, it IS about the adult Amalekites and the simple concept that, sometimes when you do wrong, you ARE NOT the only one who pays for it. I've used this analogy before. If I do something stupid that costs me my job and I can't pay my bills, my entire family will be out on the street, not just me. My wife and kids will suffer the consequences for my actions.


What if that happened in this day in age?  It would be total outrage.  It would be hailed as pure evil.  And yet, becuase "god" ordered it it's justified.  Children do not have to pay for their parents sins with their lives.  There is nothing that can justify the slaughtering of children and becuase of that (among other things) unfortunately the Bible is not the 100% truth of God.

Everyone of you folks dance around the fact that killing children is wrong and "god" supposedly ordered they should be killed.  No one wants to look at what that really means, especially when I describe it, i get accused of making a weak argument.  It's almost hilarious to think that.  How can you sit here and tell me there was anything right about slaughtering thousands of children?



No one has danced around anything. In fact, Loco (and others) have asked you, point blank, what was to have happened to those children, which I'm not sure you answered. You kill the adult Amalekites; the kids either get enslaved or are left to starve and die, because no parents are there to feed them.

Of course, you and other who bring up this issue continue to forget that, had the Amalekites left the Israelites alone, or at least, repented for attacking them in years past (BTW, they attacked Israel's women and children unprovoked, but I don't hear you complaining about that), their kids would not have suffered such a fate and neither would they.


MCWAY

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #117 on: November 12, 2007, 03:31:30 AM »
LMAO!!! who corrected me? loco made some valid points about christianity but its based on your interpretation then chose not to respond to my reply, the same thing with mcway. everyone has avoided my questions, my two posts are still sitting there, and the one answer by MCWAY was as irrational, and avoidant as you could make it.

trust me, i dont need you to explain anything with regards to logic or reason to me, this thread is totally off the wall. you got bodies exploding on impact, two different descriptions of someones death.

then you have people arguing that even though judas did not participate in the purchasing process whatsoever, he somehow bought the field? why is it so unclear, and cryptic?


ill lay it out again for you. you cant have an ALL loving god that condems people to death, or even feels negative feelings, like anger and jealousy, sadness etc... these are negative emotions and are not GOOD. for example you cant have omipotence if there is even one thing you cannot do, if there is, you  are not omnipotent. this logic seems to evade most the christians i have talked too. you also cant have god interacting or changing the course of peoples life if we have free will. this contradicts free will, and also means that god does not know the future, another incosistency. there are more, but ill wait for your reply, please answer my questions directly, or arguments if you will.

how can god do evil, or commit negativity if he is ALL LOVING, how can god impact the course of peoples actions, if we have free will?

simple questions.

Those questions have long been answered. Your disliking of the answers (or claiming that such was "irrational") is no indcation that your questions weren't addressed. Your problem is you want free will without consequence (specifically, you want to commit sin, while avoding the penalty for that sin). That ain't happening, no matter how much "logic" you claim to have. You have the free will to obey or disobey God; there are consequences to doing both. In doing either, the Lord can intervene as He sees fit. But, either way, the choice is YOURS; as are the ramifications. And the Lord knows the results of your decisions, regardless of which ones you make.

In short, free will doesn't mean absence of consequence nor does it mean that God doesn't know what will happen, based on your decisions.

There's even a verse that describes it, Deut. 30:19, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

[/i] If the Israelites decided not to heed the Lord's counsel, then any negative outcome falls on their heads, pure and simple.

As for the Judas thing, there's nothing cryptic about it. The priests couldn't legally or ritually accept blood money (which was unclean), and they told Judas as much. Therefore, based on that ancient context, that money (or anything bought with it) still belonged to Judas.

Again, why else would that field have been purchased (which just so happens to be the same on in which Judas' body lay), if the priests could keep the money themselves?

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #118 on: November 12, 2007, 06:35:39 AM »
Those questions have long been answered. Your disliking of the answers (or claiming that such was "irrational") is no indcation that your questions weren't addressed. Your problem is you want free will without consequence (specifically, you want to commit sin, while avoding the penalty for that sin). That ain't happening, no matter how much "logic" you claim to have. You have the free will to obey or disobey God; there are consequences to doing both. In doing either, the Lord can intervene as He sees fit. But, either way, the choice is YOURS; as are the ramifications. And the Lord knows the results of your decisions, regardless of which ones you make.

In short, free will doesn't mean absence of consequence nor does it mean that God doesn't know what will happen, based on your decisions.

There's even a verse that describes it, Deut. 30:19, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

[/i] If the Israelites decided not to heed the Lord's counsel, then any negative outcome falls on their heads, pure and simple.

As for the Judas thing, there's nothing cryptic about it. The priests couldn't legally or ritually accept blood money (which was unclean), and they told Judas as much. Therefore, based on that ancient context, that money (or anything bought with it) still belonged to Judas.

Again, why else would that field have been purchased (which just so happens to be the same on in which Judas' body lay), if the priests could keep the money themselves?


no, that is your opinion. free will means we can act without interference from anything, and that we have infinite choices at our disposal. god intervening would violate this principle. sorry but no passage in the bible trumps reason and logic. you cant say we have free will, then say god can change the course of our lives, dont you see how this statement contradicts itself?

the fact of the matter is, you dont know how judas died, he could of fell from a tree, he could of been hung on a cliff, OR the passage is wrong, and there is miscommunication. when i read two statements that report an event in different detail, i tend to think of things like observer bias, the community effect etc.... that is, one is right and the other is wrong. i dont try to connect the dots through ridiculous scenarios.

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #119 on: November 12, 2007, 08:19:51 AM »
Nobody's turning a blind eye to anything. Unfortunately, when you get involved in war, stuff like this happens. When we dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima, do you think that bomb merely killed the adult Japanese?

Like it or not, it IS about the adult Amalekites and the simple concept that, sometimes when you do wrong, you ARE NOT the only one who pays for it. I've used this analogy before. If I do something stupid that costs me my job and I can't pay my bills, my entire family will be out on the street, not just me. My wife and kids will suffer the consequences for my actions.


Was the death of those innocent civilians in japan right?  Was killing innocent children in Japan good and right?  NO.  I understand why we did it.  But it doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to kill children and there is no-justification and with a "god" who has "omni" powers it just doesn't fit.  It's a sin the people who decided and carried out the order will have to deal with and be accountable to God for.  When you compare Hiroshima you forget the USA was not God the all good and loving. 

And when you compare losing your job to killing children it's almost asinine to do so.  Your kids weren't getting brained by a club becuase you lost your Job.

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No one has danced around anything. In fact, Loco (and others) have asked you, point blank, what was to have happened to those children, which I'm not sure you answered. You kill the adult Amalekites; the kids either get enslaved or are left to starve and die, because no parents are there to feed them.

Of course, you and other who bring up this issue continue to forget that, had the Amalekites left the Israelites alone, or at least, repented for attacking them in years past (BTW, they attacked Israel's women and children unprovoked, but I don't hear you complaining about that), their kids would not have suffered such a fate and neither would they.

I have answered the question,  you either assimilate them into your culture or population or you leave them be with their mothers who you don't kill or assimilate the mothers too.   Either way although the burden and solution isn't perfect it far out weighs the evil alternative of killing children which is not a all loving and good God.

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #120 on: November 12, 2007, 09:25:40 AM »




No one has danced around anything. In fact, Loco (and others) have asked you, point blank, what was to have happened to those children, which I'm not sure you answered. You kill the adult Amalekites; the kids either get enslaved or are left to starve and die, because no parents are there to feed them.

Of course, you and other who bring up this issue continue to forget that, had the Amalekites left the Israelites alone, or at least, repented for attacking them in years past (BTW, they attacked Israel's women and children unprovoked, but I don't hear you complaining about that), their kids would not have suffered such a fate and neither would they.



man if god was like jesus life would be good. lol.

why dont you show a little compassion and love and raise and teach the kids, care for them etc.....

or

you could be loving by killing them ::)

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #121 on: November 15, 2007, 02:05:26 AM »
no, that is your opinion. free will means we can act without interference from anything, and that we have infinite choices at our disposal. god intervening would violate this principle. sorry but no passage in the bible trumps reason and logic. you cant say we have free will, then say god can change the course of our lives, dont you see how this statement contradicts itself?

Free will means nothing of the sort. Again, you seek free will without consequence. That will not happen in this world, not on a natural level or a supernatural one. Infinite choices have infinite consequences. Everything you do and every choice you make has such (good or evil). Those consequences affect, at the very least, you. But, depending on the circumstances, they could affect other people.

This has nothing to do with trumping so-called logic and reason. For example, you have the free will to steal. If you get caught, of course, you're going to jail. You made a decision, likely knowing what the consequences would/could be. Your having to pay the price for your actions in no way altered your free will. "Logic and reason" would indicate that, if you don't avoid the consequences in the natural realm, you certainly don't so such in the supernatural realm.


the fact of the matter is, you dont know how judas died, he could of fell from a tree, he could of been hung on a cliff, OR the passage is wrong, and there is miscommunication. when i read two statements that report an event in different detail, i tend to think of things like observer bias, the community effect etc.... that is, one is right and the other is wrong. i dont try to connect the dots through ridiculous scenarios.

The fact of the matter is we have the data, surrounding Judas' death, in the Bible. And, just like any other scenario, one would gather as much information as possible and based the conclusion on that data.

What "observer bias" is there in the account surrounding Judas' death? One says that Judas bought the field; the other says that the priest did so, on his behalf, because they could not accept his blood money. What bias is there, especially given the seriousness of the stigma, attached with blood money in ancient Israel? And once again (since you want to complain about unanswered questions) why did the priests buy that field with Judas' body in it, on Judas' behalf, if they were able to keep the money for themselves?

As for his death, one account says he hung himself; the other says he fell and his bowels splattered upon impace. Again, how does one render the other impossible (the very definition of a contradiction)? Did Judas hang indefinitely? Did no one attempt to cut him down (eventually, after Passover and the Sabbath)?

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #122 on: November 15, 2007, 02:44:43 AM »
Was the death of those innocent civilians in japan right?  Was killing innocent children in Japan good and right?  NO.  I understand why we did it.  But it doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to kill children and there is no-justification and with a "god" who has "omni" powers it just doesn't fit.  It's a sin the people who decided and carried out the order will have to deal with and be accountable to God for.  When you compare Hiroshima you forget the USA was not God the all good and loving. 

And when you compare losing your job to killing children it's almost asinine to do so.  Your kids weren't getting brained by a club becuase you lost your Job.

The analogy is far from asinine. Do the kids suffer for something I did? YES!!! Granted, the consequences are far less tragic. But, that's not the point. The point is that others can be impacted by the things you do. As I said before, sometimes when you sin, YOU ARE NOT the only one who pays the price for it. Tha's what so horrible about sin.

Furthermore, the people who carried out the order were accountable to God (He gave the command to deal with Amalekites in the first place, or did you forget that part). That very accountability is why Saul lost the throne of Israel. Saul spared the choice livestock, the silver and gold, and the Amalekite king, despite being given specific order to destroy everyone and everything.

 
I have answered the question,  you either assimilate them into your culture or population or you leave them be with their mothers who you don't kill or assimilate the mothers too.   Either way although the burden and solution isn't perfect it far out weighs the evil alternative of killing children which is not a all loving and good God.


And how long do you think a city with mainly women and children would last? And, I'm sure there'd be plenty of Biblical skeptics who would blame Israel (and ultimately God, Himself) for leaving the Amalekite women and children, ripe for the pickings, as the saying goes, for another nation.

But, none of this happens if the Amalekites didn't attack Israel in the first place, or had they tried to make amends, down the line. Instead, for three centuries and change, they assaulted Israel. They paid the price for it and so did their offspring.

Plus, if I remember correctly, Israel did assimilate women and children of their enemies (different ones than the Amalekites) into their society. Of course, the skeptical argument then became that the Israelite men were just using them as sex slaves (as most of the survivors were female).

The point being is that, no matter how the Amalekites (or any of Israel's enemies) were punished, Biblical skeptics are going to find fault with it, as has been demonstrated here on this thread.

The sin of the Amalekites had far-reaching consequences, which were metted on their children.

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #123 on: November 16, 2007, 09:03:37 PM »
The analogy is far from asinine. Do the kids suffer for something I did? YES!!! Granted, the consequences are far less tragic. But, that's not the point. The point is that others can be impacted by the things you do. As I said before, sometimes when you sin, YOU ARE NOT the only one who pays the price for it. Tha's what so horrible about sin.



We are talking about the needless wrongful evil murder of children here MCWAY something that you are obviously indifferent to as you try and support this kind of thing becuase to do otherwise would negate the integrity and credibility of the WOG being 100% in the bible.


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Tha's what so horrible about sin.

So God responds to a sin by ordering people to commit another even more horrible sin?

Makes no sense and is appalling to even think someone would compare it.

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Furthermore, the people who carried out the order were accountable to God (He gave the command to deal with Amalekites in the first place, or did you forget that part). That very accountability is why Saul lost the throne of Israel. Saul spared the choice livestock, the silver and gold, and the Amalekite king, despite being given specific order to destroy everyone and everything.

My exact point,  that's why the bible is a load of crap in some areas.   

How many people have suffered becuase those in power thought they were on orders from God?

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And how long do you think a city with mainly women and children would last? And, I'm sure there'd be plenty of Biblical skeptics who would blame Israel (and ultimately God, Himself) for leaving the Amalekite women and children, ripe for the pickings, as the saying goes, for another nation.

the Jews had a moral obligation to take care of the women and children.  do  you even  believe that?   Would follow that same example McWAY in this day in age?  Would kill children if god told you?


I wouldn't.  He can stick that order in his ass.  And if he sends me to hell he's a hypocrite and cannot possibly be god.  And if he really is GOD, then to hell i go, becuase i'd rather burn in hell than kill a child, becuase if that's what i'm supposed to do to go to heaven then forget it.   i will not lose my soul becuase GOD couldn't in all "his wisdom and power" find a better answer.


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But, none of this happens if the Amalekites didn't attack Israel in the first place, or had they tried to make amends, down the line. Instead, for three centuries and change, they assaulted Israel. They paid the price for it and so did their offspring.

They paid price for it?  The offspring? and this is your all loving God?   ::)   this god is hypocrite murderous butcher.  But if you would open your eyes to even one sliver of common sense you'll see that this is NOT god, but some murderous Hews looking to lie about their justification of murder.

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Plus, if I remember correctly, Israel did assimilate women and children of their enemies (different ones than the Amalekites) into their society. Of course, the skeptical argument then became that the Israelite men were just using them as sex slaves (as most of the survivors were female).

Oh goody!  More stupid excuses to try and justify killing children.

We did assimilate children into our society but becuase our men would use them as sex slaves it was better off to just KILL them.   ::)   Instead of addressing the fact that slavery is wrong which another can of worms with God and the bible, they use that to justify killing them?

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The point being is that, no matter how the Amalekites (or any of Israel's enemies) were punished, Biblical skeptics are going to find fault with it, as has been demonstrated here on this thread.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:   Leave them there with all there food and belongings,  In a few years it will be many old women and children that grew up to be men and women  or assimilate them into their culture.  Either way, far more morally accountable than killing tham.  Also, i don't believe every amailikite was evil.  That's just stupid propaganda by the victors.   

But now we are saying no matter what they did there would still be skeptics so they might have well just killed them anyway?   that's really dumb.

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The sin of the Amalekites had far-reaching consequences, which were metted on their children.

What do you think the opinion of the world would be if anything like that happened today?

That's why in some ways the Bible holds back the progression of our civilization when people actually try and finds ways to justify killing children.


McWay i respect you and i hope you do not take anything i said personally.  but at some point, These attempts to justify killing children anger me.

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Re: God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?
« Reply #124 on: November 17, 2007, 06:57:48 AM »
We are talking about the needless wrongful evil murder of children here MCWAY something that you are obviously indifferent to as you try and support this kind of thing becuase to do otherwise would negate the integrity and credibility of the WOG being 100% in the bible.

I'm not indifferent to anything. I simply realize the widespread reprecussions of certain sinful behaviors.

So God responds to a sin by ordering people to commit another even more horrible sin?

Makes no sense and is appalling to even think someone would compare it.

My exact point,  that's why the bible is a load of crap in some areas.   


How many people have suffered becuase those in power thought they were on orders from God?

What's that got to do with the Amalekites, their continued unprovoked attacks on Israel, and the punishment that befell them?


the Jews had a moral obligation to take care of the women and children.  do  you even  believe that?   Would follow that same example McWAY in this day in age?  Would kill children if god told you?

Their orders weren't to take care of them. Otherwise they would have, as they did when they dealt with other enemies.

Would I follow that same example? My people aren't being relentlessly attacked without provocation by an enemy for hundreds of years. So, no I wouldn't.




I wouldn't.  He can stick that order in his ass.  And if he sends me to hell he's a hypocrite and cannot possibly be god.  And if he really is GOD, then to hell i go, becuase i'd rather burn in hell than kill a child, becuase if that's what i'm supposed to do to go to heaven then forget it.   i will not lose my soul becuase GOD couldn't in all "his wisdom and power" find a better answer.

As I said earlier, if you ended up separated from God, you've already lost your soul. And, nowhere is there a prerequisite to entering the pearly gates by killing children. Your implication that God can only be God, if and when He acts the way you think you He should, is rather juvenile.



They paid price for it?  The offspring? and this is your all loving God?   ::)   this god is hypocrite murderous butcher.  But if you would open your eyes to even one sliver of common sense you'll see that this is NOT god, but some murderous Hews looking to lie about their justification of murder.

They're going to LIE about this issue, with the end result being their king being DETHRONED, despite the outcome being (by earthly standards) a success? They beat the Amalekites, took the gold and silver and livestock, and have their king of their oppressors groveling before them. Yet, their king gets the heave-ho, and his lineage doesn't follow him on the throne. And the Jews lied about all this because.......






Oh goody!  More stupid excuses to try and justify killing children.

Try that again! The point was/is that you (and several others) have a problem with God's judgment, no matter what that judgment is.


We did assimilate children into our society but becuase our men would use them as sex slaves it was better off to just KILL them.   ::)   Instead of addressing the fact that slavery is wrong which another can of worms with God and the bible, they use that to justify killing them?

You complain about the death of the children; another skeptic complains about their being assimilated. My point stands, no matter what judgment hits the Amalekites (who could have avoided all of this by leaving Israel alone), non-believers will have a problem with it.


I've said it before and I'll say it again:   Leave them there with all there food and belongings,  In a few years it will be many old women and children that grew up to be men and women  or assimilate them into their culture.  Either way, far more morally accountable than killing tham.  Also, i don't believe every amailikite was evil.  That's just stupid propaganda by the victors.   

Those men and women would pick up, where their ancestors left off (as was documeted in Scripture). Your claim of "stupid propoganda by the victors" makes no sense. For starters, no one states that all the Amalekites were evil. And, as you clearly missed, the "victors" were happy with the outcome. By and large, they were happy that Saul kept the booty of war and had King Agag (of the Amalekites) as a captive.

God, however, was not (nor was the prophet, Samuel). Agag would later pay for his actions. As Samuel put it, the sword of Agag made women childless; he and his people would suffer the same fate.


But now we are saying no matter what they did there would still be skeptics so they might have well just killed them anyway?   that's really dumb.

What do you think the opinion of the world would be if anything like that happened today?

That's why in some ways the Bible holds back the progression of our civilization when people actually try and finds ways to justify killing children.

The Bible hasn't held up the progression of our society.


McWay i respect you and i hope you do not take anything i said personally.  but at some point, These attempts to justify killing children anger me.


Be as angry as you wish. The simple fact is that this is about the reprecussions of sin. And, whether you like or not or how much it angers you, those reprecussions aren't limited to the transgressors. Why aren't you angry about the Amalekites and their behavior or the fact that, despite centuries of being able to repent, they kept up their unprovoked attacks on Israel?

God's chosen people got harrassed repeatedly; the harrassers paid dearly for it.