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Author Topic: Protein - Info - If you REALLY want to know!  (Read 31424 times)
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« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2009, 08:57:47 AM »

yea i get that and thats probthe one thing i havent dont yet is sit down and write down everything that i eat and get an exact count of all my  numbers protein, carbs, and fat, and cals...right now i have been wanting size and eating like a fat whore with the munchies and ive already put on a little pudge but other then the pudge i feel good look better fulller thicker more dense almost so this is where im gong to be for a while...but in the meantime ill be trying to tweak it so i don thave to cut
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« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2009, 12:54:17 PM »

tbomz are you only taking in 10g of whey an hour ?
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« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2009, 03:37:12 AM »

In line with this thread this is pretty good

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/six_things_you_need_to_know_about_protein
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« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2010, 08:19:06 PM »

all i know and from my experience it takes time to figure out your body and you have to try bunch of different diets to see which one is best for you high protein +high carb+low fat or low protein+high carb and fat and so on you got the picture
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« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2010, 02:41:52 PM »

just re-read this thread.

dyslexic knows his stuff  Cool
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« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2010, 10:31:11 AM »

just an update for anyone interested.

the full paper for 'A review of issues of dietary protein intake in human' can be found here:


http://hk.humankinetics.com/eJournalMedia/pdfs/5642.pdf

enjoy.


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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2010, 04:41:35 PM »

just an update for anyone interested.

the full paper for 'A review of issues of dietary protein intake in human' can be found here:


http://hk.humankinetics.com/eJournalMedia/pdfs/5642.pdf

enjoy.



OUTSTANDING!!!
Thanks for posting

This needs to be a reference point for a lot of questions and debates that happen around here.
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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2010, 04:45:42 PM »


OUTSTANDING!!!
Thanks for posting

This needs to be referred to as an "answer" to a lot of questions and debates that happen around here.


i agree, it makes very interesting reading  Smiley
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« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2010, 05:16:47 PM »

Please keep stickys free of junk.

Thank you

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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2010, 05:45:56 PM »

So after reading the article, I've determined that going a bit above 1 g per lb is sufficient.  i had one more interesting bit of information in the article which was 150 g of carbs is SUFFICIENT?!  Can someone please explain?  Also, why are we messing with meat protein intake if studies have only been done with egg, whey, casein, pea, and soy?  
Lastly, now that research is getting pretty close to solving protein intake, have we found the answer to calorie intake for both optimal fat loss and optimal muscle gain?  When i say optimal fat loss, im talking as fast as possible and as much fat oxidization with as much muscle retention as possible.  With muscle gain, as fast and as much muscle with as minimal fat gain as possible.  I only ask this question because they never clarify which CALORIE INTAKE with protein intake yielded the best results.  I'm sorry if I'm asking any dumb or answered questions, but i'm trying to learn as much about this subject as possible.
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« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2010, 10:14:13 AM »

Those are good questions.

However there is a few other studies that need consideration in regards to the 1g per pound recommendation.

Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein.
OBJECTIVES: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS.
DESIGN: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-(13)C]leucine.
RESULTS: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr(389)), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser(240/244)), and the epsilon-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser(539)) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested.
CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.

and

A moderate serving of high-quality protein maximally stimulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly subjects.

Abstract
Ingestion of sufficient dietary protein is a fundamental prerequisite for muscle protein synthesis and maintenance of muscle mass and function. Elderly people are often at increased risk for protein-energy malnutrition, sarcopenia, and a diminished quality of life. This study sought to compare changes in muscle protein synthesis and anabolic efficiency in response to a single moderate serving (113 g; 220 kcal; 30 g protein) or large serving (340 g; 660 kcal; 90 g protein) of 90% lean beef. Venous blood and vastus lateralis muscle biopsy samples were obtained during a primed, constant infusion (0.08 mumol/kg/min) of L-[ring-(13)C(6)] phenylalanine in healthy young (n=17; 34+/-3 years) and elderly (n=17; 68+/-2 years) individuals. Mixed muscle fractional synthesis rate was calculated during a 3-hour postabsorptive period and for 5 hours after meal ingestion. Data were analyzed using a two-way repeated measures analysis of variance with Tukey's pairwise comparisons. A 113-g serving of lean beef increased muscle protein synthesis by approximately 50% in both young and older volunteers. Despite a threefold increase in protein and energy content, there was no further increase in protein synthesis after ingestion of 340 g lean beef in either age group.  Ingestion of more than 30 g protein in a single meal does not further enhance the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly.


basically they both show that 20-30g of protein maximally stimulates protein synthesis, and that any more than this is burned off as energy. Also from other studies done on constant infusion of bcaa, we know there is a refractory period involved that limits the frequency of meals.

so in theory - the most efficient intake of protein in terms of maximal synthesis and absorbsion is 20g of whey every 2 hours. so over the course of the day this amounts to around 140g a day. that's assuming you are awake for 14 hours a day. if you want to waken up throughout the night and drink shakes all night as well its 240g.

i don't think its practical for most, but interesting none the less.  Smiley

regarding your question of maximal fat loss - protein sparring modified fasts have been scientifically proven to reduced fat the fastest. they are not easy however. i have tried it. i lost just over 50lbs i think over 4 months last year using this method, and i even included pig out weekends where i would eat anything i wanted ( which i did). i wasn't working out during this time, i did however do pushups and bodyweight squats a few times a week. This was also while i was working a physically tiring job and on my feet all day.

i was tired a lot, but not as bad as you would think, but the weight rebound was very fast though  Sad

in regard to muscle gain - once your protein requirements are met, any extra calories from fat or carbs will produce muscle gain ( assuming your exercise is up to par).


Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: Seventy-three healthy, male subjects randomly divided into 3 groups participated in a study to determine the effects of 2 high-calorie nutritional supplements on body composition, body segment circumferences, and muscular strength following a resistance-training (RT) program.
METHODS: In addition to their normal diets group 1 (CHO/PRO; n=26) consumed a 8.4 Mj x day(-1) (2010 kcal) high calorie, high protein supplement containing 356 g carbohydrate and 106 g protein. Group 2 (CHO; n=25) consumed a carbohydrate supplement that was isocaloric with CHO/PRO. Group 3 (CTRL; n=22) received no supplement and served as a control. All subjects were placed on a 4-day x week(-1) RT program for 8 weeks.
RESULTS: Dietary analysis revealed no significant differences in total energy consumption or nutrients at any time in the non-supplemented diets of the 3 groups. Significant (p= or <0.05) increases in body mass (BM) and fat-free mass (FFM) were observed in CHO/PRO and CHO compared to CTRL. Mean (+/- SD) increases in BM were 3.1+/-3.1 kg and 3.1+/-2.2 kg, respectively. Fat-free mass significantly (p= or <0.05) increased 2.9+/-3.4 kg in CHO/PRO and 3.4+/-2.5 kg in CHO. Muscular strength, as measured by a one-repetition maximum in the bench press, leg press, and lat-pull down increased significantly (p= or <0.05) in all groups. No significant differences in strength measures were observed among groups following training.
CONCLUSIONS: Results indicate that high-calorie supplements are effective in increasing BM and FFM when combined with RT. However, once individual protein requirements are met, energy content of the diet has the largest effect on body composition.


extra carbs and or fats may be better than more protein due to their ability to provide efficient energy. Carbs also has the advantage to stimulate excess insulin with has an effect on reducing protein breakdown rates.

regarding calories - small increases in calories are advisable rather than pig out/ bulking type diets. this works both for fat loss/muscle retention and muscle gain/minimum fat gain. 500cals extra a day until your strength stalls and or the scales do not change, then increase again, etc etc

hopefully this has helped you.  Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2010, 11:48:34 PM »

Those are good questions.

However there is a few other studies that need consideration in regards to the 1g per pound recommendation.

Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein.
OBJECTIVES: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS.
DESIGN: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-(13)C]leucine.
RESULTS: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr(389)), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser(240/244)), and the epsilon-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser(539)) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested.
CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.

and

A moderate serving of high-quality protein maximally stimulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly subjects.

Abstract
Ingestion of sufficient dietary protein is a fundamental prerequisite for muscle protein synthesis and maintenance of muscle mass and function. Elderly people are often at increased risk for protein-energy malnutrition, sarcopenia, and a diminished quality of life. This study sought to compare changes in muscle protein synthesis and anabolic efficiency in response to a single moderate serving (113 g; 220 kcal; 30 g protein) or large serving (340 g; 660 kcal; 90 g protein) of 90% lean beef. Venous blood and vastus lateralis muscle biopsy samples were obtained during a primed, constant infusion (0.08 mumol/kg/min) of L-[ring-(13)C(6)] phenylalanine in healthy young (n=17; 34+/-3 years) and elderly (n=17; 68+/-2 years) individuals. Mixed muscle fractional synthesis rate was calculated during a 3-hour postabsorptive period and for 5 hours after meal ingestion. Data were analyzed using a two-way repeated measures analysis of variance with Tukey's pairwise comparisons. A 113-g serving of lean beef increased muscle protein synthesis by approximately 50% in both young and older volunteers. Despite a threefold increase in protein and energy content, there was no further increase in protein synthesis after ingestion of 340 g lean beef in either age group.  Ingestion of more than 30 g protein in a single meal does not further enhance the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly.


basically they both show that 20-30g of protein maximally stimulates protein synthesis, and that any more than this is burned off as energy. Also from other studies done on constant infusion of bcaa, we know there is a refractory period involved that limits the frequency of meals.

so in theory - the most efficient intake of protein in terms of maximal synthesis and absorbsion is 20g of whey every 2 hours. so over the course of the day this amounts to around 140g a day. that's assuming you are awake for 14 hours a day. if you want to waken up throughout the night and drink shakes all night as well its 240g.

i don't think its practical for most, but interesting none the less.  Smiley

regarding your question of maximal fat loss - protein sparring modified fasts have been scientifically proven to reduced fat the fastest. they are not easy however. i have tried it. i lost just over 50lbs i think over 4 months last year using this method, and i even included pig out weekends where i would eat anything i wanted ( which i did). i wasn't working out during this time, i did however do pushups and bodyweight squats a few times a week. This was also while i was working a physically tiring job and on my feet all day.

i was tired a lot, but not as bad as you would think, but the weight rebound was very fast though  Sad

in regard to muscle gain - once your protein requirements are met, any extra calories from fat or carbs will produce muscle gain ( assuming your exercise is up to par).


Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: Seventy-three healthy, male subjects randomly divided into 3 groups participated in a study to determine the effects of 2 high-calorie nutritional supplements on body composition, body segment circumferences, and muscular strength following a resistance-training (RT) program.
METHODS: In addition to their normal diets group 1 (CHO/PRO; n=26) consumed a 8.4 Mj x day(-1) (2010 kcal) high calorie, high protein supplement containing 356 g carbohydrate and 106 g protein. Group 2 (CHO; n=25) consumed a carbohydrate supplement that was isocaloric with CHO/PRO. Group 3 (CTRL; n=22) received no supplement and served as a control. All subjects were placed on a 4-day x week(-1) RT program for 8 weeks.
RESULTS: Dietary analysis revealed no significant differences in total energy consumption or nutrients at any time in the non-supplemented diets of the 3 groups. Significant (p= or <0.05) increases in body mass (BM) and fat-free mass (FFM) were observed in CHO/PRO and CHO compared to CTRL. Mean (+/- SD) increases in BM were 3.1+/-3.1 kg and 3.1+/-2.2 kg, respectively. Fat-free mass significantly (p= or <0.05) increased 2.9+/-3.4 kg in CHO/PRO and 3.4+/-2.5 kg in CHO. Muscular strength, as measured by a one-repetition maximum in the bench press, leg press, and lat-pull down increased significantly (p= or <0.05) in all groups. No significant differences in strength measures were observed among groups following training.
CONCLUSIONS: Results indicate that high-calorie supplements are effective in increasing BM and FFM when combined with RT. However, once individual protein requirements are met, energy content of the diet has the largest effect on body composition.


extra carbs and or fats may be better than more protein due to their ability to provide efficient energy. Carbs also has the advantage to stimulate excess insulin with has an effect on reducing protein breakdown rates.

regarding calories - small increases in calories are advisable rather than pig out/ bulking type diets. this works both for fat loss/muscle retention and muscle gain/minimum fat gain. 500cals extra a day until your strength stalls and or the scales do not change, then increase again, etc etc

hopefully this has helped you.  Smiley

Oy, it's mixed info.  Helpful for knowledge, but both Layne Norton and Alan Aragon tore apart the 30 g per meal thing.  It makes absolutely no sense to me that fat and carbs build more muscle for body comp purposes than protein itself.  If that were true, most of us wouldn't bother messing with protein. I'd probably just get in one piece of meat and one shake and the rest splurge on fat and carbs provided they don't have too much sugar or salt per item and my calories are lower than maintenance.  Natural bodybuilders of last year and now stick to 250, some closer to 300.  I'm not saying they're right, but since bodybuilding is basically body science, how come some of the things they follow aren't backed up by science yet seem to be working for them?
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« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2010, 12:46:41 AM »

I have to repost this since nobody got to it and I think it's a very good and possibly hard question: Why are we messing with meat protein intake if studies have only been done with egg, whey, casein, pea, and soy?  I realize it's better to eat natural foods but I have only heard of one study with makeshift item that mimicked the macros of pork tenderloin, but that's it.  All the other complete and credible studies are done with the items said above.  So why?
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« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2010, 10:01:22 AM »

Oy, it's mixed info.  Helpful for knowledge, but both Layne Norton and Alan Aragon tore apart the 30 g per meal thing.  It makes absolutely no sense to me that fat and carbs build more muscle for body comp purposes than protein itself.  If that were true, most of us wouldn't bother messing with protein. I'd probably just get in one piece of meat and one shake and the rest splurge on fat and carbs provided they don't have too much sugar or salt per item and my calories are lower than maintenance.  Natural bodybuilders of last year and now stick to 250, some closer to 300.  I'm not saying they're right, but since bodybuilding is basically body science, how come some of the things they follow aren't backed up by science yet seem to be working for them?

where has layne and alan tore apart the 30g per meal study ?

i think you may be mistaken about the study i posted, it doesn't say carbs and fats are better than protein, it says that once protein requirements are met then energy content of the diet is all that matters.

also there have been studies done on other protein sources - beef like the study above.
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« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2010, 08:33:22 PM »

Well, not torn, but disproved.  here's the link: http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/  I'm trying to find the Layne one, but no luck.  Awesome, so you're saying that 150 g of protein is plenty, and if done as the study recommends, will result in good muscle gain? 
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« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2010, 02:47:43 PM »

Well, not torn, but disproved.  here's the link: http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/  I'm trying to find the Layne one, but no luck.  Awesome, so you're saying that 150 g of protein is plenty, and if done as the study recommends, will result in good muscle gain? 

i like alan aragons work, and have learned many things from him that i didn't know, however he does not disprove those studies i posted in that article.

he does argue via logic that we need more protein than that study recommends - mostly due to the other studies that show 1g per pound being more effective. Again though he does not say that those studies i posted are wrong - they are not.  but clearly more studies need to be done to explain the discrepancies between these and the 1g per lb ones.

however what i find interesting about alans article is he uses the examples of intermittent fasting to prove the body can use more protein than 20g in 1 sitting these studies do seem to show the body can use more than 20g in a sitting, but if you look closely they also show subjects participating in these studies show maintenance of lean muscle mass despite low intakes of 86g and 101g of protein once a day.

actually less protein that the studies i posted claim would/could maximise synthesis response.

so in effect is he actually supporting the same studies he is trying to disprove with his own logic  Cheesy
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« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2010, 02:07:00 PM »

Current research has conclusively proven that exercise increases protein needs. Hence, bodybuilders need protein in amounts that are quite different from other athletes. In the same article published in the Journal of Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, it was shown that strength athletes need up to 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight to maintain positive nitrogen balance. The positive nitrogen balance is the optimal environment for muscle growth. This environment should also come with complete proteins every meal. Complete proteins are those that come from animal sources such as eggs, milk and meat. As a dedicated body builder, you must be able to eat meals with complete proteins to get the job done right.
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« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2010, 04:27:36 PM »

the 20g study i posted about was done on bodybuilders - immediately after weight training  Huh
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« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2010, 03:01:57 AM »

Sorry fellas, haven't been on here in a while.  After researching a while again, although most bodybuilders, even those that are natural, take in 1.5, I've found one getting his name out there that stays between 1-1.2 g: kelechi opara, alan's client.  The guy is ripped the hell out.
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« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2010, 04:05:42 AM »

Sorry fellas, haven't been on here in a while.  After researching a while again, although most bodybuilders, even those that are natural, take in 1.5, I've found one getting his name out there that stays between 1-1.2 g: kelechi opara, alan's client.  The guy is ripped the hell out.
Roll Eyes he is also juiced to the gills on steroids


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« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2010, 01:23:10 PM »

it says that once protein requirements are met then energy content of the diet is all that matters.


However, once individual protein requirements are met, energy content of the diet has the largest effect on body composition.

the 20g study i posted about was done on bodybuilders - immediately after weight training  Huh
What were the bodyweights of the individuals? How much muscle did each individual have? What constitutes an "intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise"? What were their ages? What were their levels of fitness? What were their goals?
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« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2010, 03:01:50 PM »

However, once individual protein requirements are met, energy content of the diet has the largest effect on body composition.

what is your point in highlighting what i've already said  Huh
Quote
What were the bodyweights of the individuals? How much muscle did each individual have? What constitutes an "intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise"? What were their ages? What were their levels of fitness? What were their goals?

bodyweight = 86kg +/- 7.6kg
weight lifting experience = 4months to 8 years
ages = 22 +/- 2 years
muscle mass of subjects = unknown.
resistance exercise = 4 sets each of leg press, knee extension, and leg curl using a predetermined load designed to elicit failure within 810 repetitions.

the full paper is here:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/89/1/161

however all the info you requested is meaningless as the other study showed the same results thing with a totally different demographic i.e. young and old normal people.

what this means in simple terms is that the amount of exercise, age, experience, muscle mass levels, fitness levels etc none of it matters. All that matters is protein ingestion, and any more than 20-30g per meal is burned off.

So you have the option of reading the full text above but you have already made up your mind, so why bother reading it? in fact why bother stalking me to this thread when we both know you will contribute nothing of value.
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« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2010, 03:28:48 PM »

what is your point in highlighting what i've already said  Huh


You conveniently stated that energy content of diet is all that matters......in reality it says that energy content has the largest effect on body composition.

In simple terms, eat like shit = look like shit.


what this means in simple terms is that the amount of exercise, age, experience, muscle mass levels, fitness levels etc none of it matters. All that matters is protein ingestion, and any more than 20-30g per meal is burned off.

I find it very hard to believe that EVERY BODY uses the same amount of protein in the same amount of time, regardless of fitness, muscle, age, sex, athletic endeavors.

in fact why bother stalking me to this thread when we both know you will contribute nothing of value.

This is the first time I have addressed you since you quit like a spoiled brat from the challenge with disturbia, not sure what you are talking about. Maybe you have a sugar buzz from the chunky kit kats?
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« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2010, 03:46:50 PM »

Haven't read the whole study yet, but they only traced Leucine......... "Leucine was chosen as a tracer, because it is an essential amino acid that is primarily metabolized within
the lean tissues of the body."

"Participants reported to the laboratory at 0700 after an overnight fast, having refrained from all resistance exercise and any strenuous physical activity for at least 3 d."

Yeah, that describes people who work out seriously. Roll Eyes


"A polytetrafluoroethylene catheter was inserted in
the medial vein of each arm, one for tracer infusion and the other
for arterialized blood sampling."

"Baseline blood samples were drawn, and
then participants received priming doses of NaH13CO2 (2.35 lmol/
kg) and [1-13C]leucine (7.6 lmol/kg, 99 atom percent; Cambridge
Isotopes, Andover, MA) before beginning a constant [1-13C]leucine
infusion (7.6 lmol  kg21  h21) (Figure 1). Immediately
after the onset of the infusion, participants consumed a drink
containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole-egg protein dissolved in
400 mL water."  Now if they are injecting an essential amino acid into the body, wouldn't that affect affect the study since the whole egg protein  "On the basis of a leucine content of 8% in egg
protein"



Seems flawed in the aspect of building muscle and consistant workouts. I don't think a study of 6 people fives times can or will dictate my protein intake.
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« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2010, 08:39:35 AM »

You conveniently stated that energy content of diet is all that matters......in reality it says that energy content has the largest effect on body composition.

In simple terms, eat like shit = look like shit.

no you are wrong it does not mean that. energy content simply means calories from fats and/or carbs weather they are saturated fats, mono sat fats, simple carbs, or complex carbs, fructose, sucrose etc etc

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I find it very hard to believe that EVERY BODY uses the same amount of protein in the same amount of time, regardless of fitness, muscle, age, sex, athletic endeavors.

the 20g study when taken alone does not show that everybody uses the same amount of protein. however when you add the 30g beef study - it all becomes clear.

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Participants reported to the laboratory at 0700 after an overnight fast, having refrained from all resistance exercise and any strenuous physical activity for at least 3 d."

Yeah, that describes people who work out seriously

perhaps they were asked to refrain from exercise to highten the response to exercise and hence effect protein requirements - regardless of the reason, i don't work out every day with weights and often wait 72-96 hours between workouts, yet i can incline 110lb dumbbells  Roll Eyes so what are you getting at ? if they did workout every day or every 2nd day the results would be totally different ?  well i suppose it is possible, if not for the 30g study too  Wink
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A polytetrafluoroethylene catheter was inserted in
the medial vein of each arm, one for tracer infusion and the other
for arterialized blood sampling."

"Baseline blood samples were drawn, and
then participants received priming doses of NaH13CO2 (2.35 lmol/
kg) and [1-13C]leucine (7.6 lmol/kg, 99 atom percent; Cambridge
Isotopes, Andover, MA) before beginning a constant [1-13C]leucine
infusion (7.6 lmol  kg21  h21) (Figure 1). Immediately
after the onset of the infusion, participants consumed a drink
containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole-egg protein dissolved in
400 mL water."  Now if they are injecting an essential amino acid into the body, wouldn't that affect affect the study since the whole egg protein  "On the basis of a leucine content of 8% in egg
protein"

no it is different as it was a tracer infusion - this is not the same as an ingested eaa.

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Seems flawed in the aspect of building muscle and consistant workouts. I don't think a study of 6 people fives times can or will dictate my protein intake.

taken on its own yes you may have a point, however as i stated before the 30g beef study backs up this one, with normal folks too.

i commend you on trying to have a rational discussion though, it was really quite surprising.
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175lbs by 31st July
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