Author Topic: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction  (Read 23931 times)

loco

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2007, 11:55:14 AM »
The golden rule is something universal found in many many religions......John 14:6 is only found in one religion and is something that makes that religion exclusive to all others in regards to getting to heaven which makes it a religious DOCTRINE of man.


Can you comprehend the difference?

So, you did not believe the Bible when it says that Jesus taught the Golden Rule until you learned that many many religions have the Golden rule too.  Okay.

1. When did you learn that, who told you and please do list all the many many religions you talk about

2. So that is your criteria for conveniently picking and choosing out of the Bible what suits you, you must investigate those many many religions, and if they say it too, then it must be the word of God. Is that how it is with you?  If so, then

3.  List all the things in the Bible that appear in other religions, also listing the religion and the reference where this religion includes this same teaching.

OzmO

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2007, 12:24:29 PM »
So, you did not believe the Bible when it says that Jesus taught the Golden Rule until you learned that many many religions have the Golden rule too.  Okay.


Monsterly wrong assumption.

no.

I did believe the bible in regard to the golden rule, and it was reinforced through other religions.

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1. When did you learn that, who told you and please do list all the many many religions you talk about

I posted a link in this thread i think or the other one we've talking about.  You can look it up.

I learned about the golden rule when i was 8 in Sunday School.

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2. So that is your criteria for conveniently picking and choosing out of the Bible what suits you, you must investigate those many many religions, and if they say it too, then it must be the word of God. Is that how it is with you?  If so, then

I explained my criteria in the other post.  typically anything that hints or displayed exclusivity to the WOG or displayed social norms or condemnatioins of the times or is plain church doctrine is likely man made.   Add in consistent actions opposite to moral teachings (like killing children or slaughtering 3000 men)  That still leaves quite a lot in the Bible that may be the WOG and if you take some of those similarities you find in other religions you find a moral compass for living that's similar in those regards.

It's not exact, by no means, but some of it, like Killing a nation's children is more than obvious.

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3.  List all the things in the Bible that appear in other religions, also listing the religion and the reference where this religion includes this same teaching.

If you want to pay my salary for a year, I'd be happy to take on the challenge.  Actually not,  I enjoy my work.   




loco

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2007, 12:40:08 PM »
Monsterly wrong assumption.

no.

I did believe the bible in regard to the golden rule, and it was reinforced through other religions.

I posted a link in this thread i think or the other one we've talking about.  You can look it up.

I learned about the golden rule when i was 8 in Sunday School.

I explained my criteria in the other post.  typically anything that hints or displayed exclusivity to the WOG or displayed social norms or condemnatioins of the times or is plain church doctrine is likely man made.   Add in consistent actions opposite to moral teachings (like killing children or slaughtering 3000 men)  That still leaves quite a lot in the Bible that may be the WOG and if you take some of those similarities you find in other religions you find a moral compass for living that's similar in those regards.

It's not exact, by no means, but some of it, like Killing a nation's children is more than obvious.

If you want to pay my salary for a year, I'd be happy to take on the challenge.  Actually not,  I enjoy my work.   

No, I asked you why you believe what Jesus said in the Bible about the Golden Rule and not John 14:6, and you answered

The golden rule is something universal found in many many religions......John 14:6 is only found in one religion and is something that makes that religion exclusive to all others in regards to getting to heaven which makes it a religious DOCTRINE of man.


Can you comprehend the difference?

And this is only talking about the Golden Rule.  We are not even talking about you bringing up Jesus' "good message".  And you are telling me above that if it appears in many many other religions, then it is the word of God?  Yeah, right.

You don't really have any criteria for picking and choosing what suits you out of the Bible.  You are just making stuff up as you go.  If not, why can't you answer my questions?  You give me what, a website?  If this is really your belief system, you wouldn't need a website to answer my question.  You can't even name one of the many many religions you are referring to. 

You ask me where I get my belief system from and I can simply tell you The Bible.  I ask you the same question and you never have a clear answer, because it is obvious that you don't know yourself.

OzmO

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2007, 12:51:12 PM »
No, I asked you why you believe what Jesus said in the Bible about the Golden Rule and not John 14:6, and you answered

And this is only talking about the Golden Rule.  We are not even talking about you bringing up Jesus' "good message".  And you are telling me above that if it appears in many many other religions, then it is the word of God?  Yeah, right.

You don't really have any criteria for picking and choosing what suits you out of the Bible.  You are just making stuff up as you go.  If not, why can't you answer my questions?  You give me what, a website?  If this is really your belief system, you wouldn't need a website to answer my question.  You can't even name one of the many many religions you are referring to. 

You ask me where I get my belief system from and I can simply tell you The Bible.  I ask you the same question and you never have a clear answer, because it is obvious that you don't know yourself.

Do i have to dumb it down for you?

Or are you just pissed because a fallacy in the Bible was exposed and you can't even fix it with interpretation?

So now you are trying to attack how i believe things?

I answered your questions.  Unlike yourself who pick and chooses which questions to answer.


If you take the time to read what I wrote you see my criteria.

I get you get your belief system is from the Bible.   Well buddy it's flawed and much of it is man made.


loco

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2007, 12:59:45 PM »
Do i have to dumb it down for you?

Or are you just pissed because a fallacy in the Bible was exposed and you can't even fix it with interpretation?

So now you are trying to attack how i believe things?

I answered your questions.  Unlike yourself who pick and chooses which questions to answer.


If you take the time to read what I wrote you see my criteria.

I get you get your belief system is from the Bible.   Well buddy it's flawed and much of it is man made.




Really?  You've persuaded me.  I guess I'll have to join you in conveniently picking and choosing what suits me out of the many different religions out there.   

OzmO

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2007, 01:24:26 PM »

Really?  You've persuded me.  I guess I'll have to join you in conveniently picking and choosing what suits me out of the many different religions out there.   

It seems you think I'm trying to persuade you of something.  You asked me the same question before.   Is your memory having problems?

My answer was no.   

Your sarcasm on the other hand is getting very entertaining.

Loco, i respect you, i think you are good guy and such.   But you are sometimes very narrow minded.

All religions have truth in them.  Some more then others, but no religion has complete truth.   there's nothing that says you must follow one religion unless of course you subscribe to a particular religion that says so like Christianity.

loco

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2007, 02:23:13 PM »
It seems you think I'm trying to persuade you of something.  You asked me the same question before.   Is your memory having problems?

My answer was no.   

Your sarcasm on the other hand is getting very entertaining.

Loco, i respect you, i think you are good guy and such.   But you are sometimes very narrow minded.

All religions have truth in them.  Some more then others, but no religion has complete truth.   there's nothing that says you must follow one religion unless of course you subscribe to a particular religion that says so like Christianity.

Thanks, OzmO!  I respect you too!  But there is something, someone rather who says you must follow him.  And that is Jesus.  I believe in what he said in NT, and I see no evidence that suggests he didn't say it.

tu_holmes

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2007, 02:28:12 PM »
Thanks, OzmO!  I respect you too!  But there is something, someone rather who says you must follow him.  And that is Jesus.  I believe in what he said in NT, and I see no evidence that suggests he didn't say it.

Outside of the NT, is there any documentation that shows that Jesus lived?

I've been looking around for it, and I just can't find anything.

There are records of Mary and Joseph, but none of this Jesus guy... Can anyone point me in a direction?

loco

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2007, 02:32:42 PM »
Outside of the NT, is there any documentation that shows that Jesus lived?

I've been looking around for it, and I just can't find anything.

There are records of Mary and Joseph, but none of this Jesus guy... Can anyone point me in a direction?

Hey tu_holmes!  Didn't you and I have a long discussion about this in the political board already?

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=133677.msg1905794#msg1905794

tu_holmes

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2007, 02:34:21 PM »
Hey tu_holmes!  Didn't you and I have a long discussion about this in the political board already?

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=133677.msg1905794#msg1905794

Most likely... I'm still trying to get an answer... Damn these interwebs.

Hustle Man

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2007, 03:20:37 PM »
Outside of the NT, is there any documentation that shows that Jesus lived?

I've been looking around for it, and I just can't find anything.

There are records of Mary and Joseph, but none of this Jesus guy... Can anyone point me in a direction?

LOL!  What cracks me up about these folk that ask questions such as this is, they are quick to believe other so called non-inspired writings such as, all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

They will debate vigorously that those writings should have been included in the Bible too! Those same folk turn right around and ask "did Jesus really exists?" "is there any evidence of his existence lol"? OMG!

Did anyone ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe when the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem (did that really happen?) and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants in 70 A.D. which also resulted in, entire cities being literally burned to the ground; much of the physical evidence pointing to Jesus' existence was probably destroyed. On top of that many of the eye-witnesses of Jesus were probably killed. This would likely have limited the amount of surviving eyewitnesses to the life and testimony of Jesus, right?

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and Biblical history. Maybe the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the 12 apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ.

Or do you deny that the disciples existed either? Which brings us back to the debate about the Gnostic writings! LOL!

P.S. I don't ever recall any of the Ceasars denying the existence of Jesus I may be wrong but I've been looking around for it, and I just can't find anything...Can anyone point me in a direction?

LOL!

HMIC
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tu_holmes

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2007, 03:40:11 PM »
LOL!  What cracks me up about these folk that ask questions such as this is, they are quick to believe other so called non-inspired writings such as, all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

They will debate vigorously that those writings should have been included in the Bible too! Those same folk turn right around and ask "did Jesus really exists?" "is there any evidence of his existence lol"? OMG!

Did anyone ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe when the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem (did that really happen?) and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants in 70 A.D. which also resulted in, entire cities being literally burned to the ground; much of the physical evidence pointing to Jesus' existence was probably destroyed. On top of that many of the eye-witnesses of Jesus were probably killed. This would likely have limited the amount of surviving eyewitnesses to the life and testimony of Jesus, right?

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and Biblical history. Maybe the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the 12 apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ.

Or do you deny that the disciples existed either? Which brings us back to the debate about the Gnostic writings! LOL!

P.S. I don't ever recall any of the Ceasars denying the existence of Jesus I may be wrong but I've been looking around for it, and I just can't find anything...Can anyone point me in a direction?

LOL!

HMIC
Still doesn't answer the question... Like my previous post states... There are records of Mary and Joseph... So if you want to talk about all of the destruction, wouldn't those get destroyed as well?

Oh right... It's all funny.

Continue to Laugh... I love how when people really have no answer... they do the whole LOL thing.

Hustle Man

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2007, 05:30:35 PM »
Still doesn't answer the question... Like my previous post states... There are records of Mary and Joseph... So if you want to talk about all of the destruction, wouldn't those get destroyed as well?

Oh right... It's all funny.

Continue to Laugh... I love how when people really have no answer... they do the whole LOL thing.


Maybe those weren't destroyed who knows? This is my question for you (since you don't know either way): If Jesus did exist what does that mean for you and If Jesus did not exist what does that mean for you?

I mean, why even debate peculiarity? Either you trust in the finished work on the cross or you don't! Which do you hold to?

There was a time in my life when I debated against Christ, creation, forgiveness of sins, eternity, the virgin birth, etc.! But when God saw fit to open my eyes and my heart he inclined my heart and drew me to him; of course not without resistance! It is as plain to me as the air I breathe, I can't see it but I know it's there and I know I can't live without it even when I try I need that air (Jesus) I need to take it (Him) in to live!

Don't let a few lost souls (I will not mention names) dissuade you in receiving what God has purposed for you! You see, God is a spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth not flesh and evidence! Look pass your flesh and your emotions (what you feel) because they are; to say the least, notoriously unreliable and will lead you astray everytime (sin caused that)!

Talk to God, as him to reveal himself to you and don't stop ("pray without ceasing")!

HMIC

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tu_holmes

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2007, 05:36:39 PM »
Maybe those weren't destroyed who knows? This is my question for you (since you don't know either way): If Jesus did exist what does that mean for you and If Jesus did not exist what does that mean for you?

I mean, why even debate peculiarity? Either you trust in the finished work on the cross or you don't! Which do you hold to



I don't think that's the point really... At least not to me... If you believe that Jesus existed, then you have a basis to believe other things that happened about his life... You have a starting point.

If he never existed, then the entire NT is a fabrication and Christianity crumbles.

Nothing more, nothing less... This question is really not about me... It's about the organized religion of Christianity... to me, that is.

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2007, 06:18:39 PM »
I don't think that's the point really... At least not to me... If you believe that Jesus existed, then you have a basis to believe other things that happened about his life... You have a starting point.

If he never existed, then the entire NT is a fabrication and Christianity crumbles.

Nothing more, nothing less... This question is really not about me... It's about the organized religion of Christianity... to me, that is.

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2007, 06:48:49 PM »
I don't think that's the point really... At least not to me... If you believe that Jesus existed, then you have a basis to believe other things that happened about his life... You have a starting point.

If he never existed, then the entire NT is a fabrication and Christianity crumbles.

Nothing more, nothing less... This question is really not about me... It's about the organized religion of Christianity... to me, that is.
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MCWAY

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #116 on: November 07, 2007, 03:08:26 AM »

It still goes back to Judas not deciding to buy the field.   Judas the threw the money at the temple.  the priests don't accept the money but, in fact they accept making a decision with the money which means they accepted responsibility for it.

No, it doesn’t. Again, you can’t give anything to someone, unless he accepts it. Judas tried to give the money away, but the priests DIDN’T take it. Since the priests did not accept the loot and told Judas that they couldn’t, Judas still owned it and/or anything purchased with it.

Simply throwing the silver to the ground and leaving didn’t relieve him of responsibility or ownership. For all practical purposes, he let the priests spend the money on his behalf.

That's the point you keep ignoring. As Matthew points out, this was blood money. Taking such was an extremely serious offense in ancient Israel. It is for that very reason that the field gets purchased, the very same field in which Judas' corpse was rotting. Why else would that field have been procured, if the priests could have taken the money, themselves?


 They decided to buy the field, therefore they bought the field, not Judas.

They bought a field with Judas's money.   In any analogy that's how it's described.


In that ancient context, there is no difference between Judas buying the field himself and the priests doing so on his behalf, using his money (obtained by his treachery). It's called the "Field of Blood", because as Judas admitted, he betrayed innocent blood. All ownership in this matter goes to him.

Thus, there’s no contradiction with Luke’s account and that of Matthew. Matthew simply gives more insight.


Yes it does, because by "throwing" the money at the temple he is releasing responsibility for it. 

No, he's not, especially when the priests tell him that they can't take the money.


If i throw money at group of people and leave to go hang myself and those people take the money and buy a bottle of Jack Daniels did i buy the bottle or did they?

They bought the bottle.

The priests bought the field.

If they tell you that they won't take responsibility for this money and will not be held liable for what happens, yet you throw the money at them, anyway...........YES, YOU DID BUY THE BOTTLE.

Judas accepted the fact that the priests couldn't accept his blood money. And, he threw the silver down, knowing that whatever was done or bought with it would be charged to him and done in his name. Therefore, Judas bought the "Field of Blood".



columbusdude82

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #117 on: November 07, 2007, 07:30:14 AM »
(...)
You see, God is a spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth not flesh and evidence! (...)[/b]
HMIC

So would you agree that faith entails the suspension of reason?

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #118 on: November 07, 2007, 08:25:46 AM »
You complained about Stella giving you a condescending remark, yet you go and refer to her (and me) as having an “infected mind”.

You aren’t looking for a reasonable explanation, as I stated on another thread. You are merely looking for a platform on which to complain about the Bible, for what reason I don’t really know.

There was nothing unreasonable about the answers, regarding this issue with Judas, just as there was nothing of the sort, regarding your earlier (and already-answered) question about Jesus going to Egypt.

And just as was the case then, using BOTH the accounts of Matthew and Luke give a clearer picture of what happened to Judas. He tried to give the money back; but the priests could not and would not take it. Knowing that, he still threw the money down, ran off and hung himself.Left to rot, his body eventually fell and splattered upon hitting the ground.

But, as I told Ozmo, Judas' tossing the blood money doesn't relieve him of ownership of it (or anything purchased with it). The priests couldn't leave the money laying in the temple. But, they couldn't accept it, either. So, they found the field and purchased it on Judas' behalf with Judas' money. He let the priests use his money to do that. From a ritualistic and legalistic standpoint, that was the same as Judas buying the field himself (as Luke stated in Acts).




columbusdude82

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #119 on: November 07, 2007, 08:33:45 AM »
So is that a yes or a no? 8)

Your explanation is not found in the book. It is from Christian apologetics. There are lots of Christian apologetics site on the web that propose just these answers that you can copy and paste in response to heathens like your humble servant :)

That is an view of evangelical Christianity that smashes all 4 four Gospels (and Acts sometimes) into one big gospel, so that they all make one big storyline. Earlier I called that the "bulldozer" approach. That way, you can explain away any discrepancy between the books. Problem with that is you lose the distinct 'flavor' of each book and each evangelist. Other protestants, Catholics, Orthodox etc may approach these questions differently.

As for "infected mind," the expression originates in the field of "memetics," (I won't go into that here, but google it if you're interested), for example this quotation:

The patient typically finds himself impelled by some deep, inner conviction that something is true, or right, or virtuous: a conviction that doesn't seem to owe anything to evidence or reason, but which, nevertheless, he feels as totally compelling and convincing. We doctors refer to such a belief as 'faith'. ~ Richard Dawkins

columbusdude82

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #120 on: November 07, 2007, 10:04:12 AM »
... or this one:

"The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry."
Richard Dawkins

OzmO

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #121 on: November 07, 2007, 10:39:29 AM »


But, as I told Ozmo, Judas' tossing the blood money doesn't relieve him of ownership of it (or anything purchased with it). The priests couldn't leave the money laying in the temple. But, they couldn't accept it, either. So, they found the field and purchased it on Judas' behalf with Judas' money. He let the priests use his money to do that. From a ritualistic and legalistic standpoint, that was the same as Judas buying the field himself (as Luke stated in Acts).





Oh yes it does.  It releives him of the responsibility of how the money is spent.  He did not make the decision.   You can say the priest didn't accept the money all you want.  It's not relevant whether or not they accepted because they DECIDED how to spend it.  They made the decison to buy the field, hence they bought the field not Judas.   They also could have left the money sitting right there.  that was an option,  however they chose to take the money!   By doing that they took possession of it.

It's very black and white.  Cut and dry.

If i give you $20 and hang myself and you take the $20 and decide how to spend it  you take ownership of it whether you want to admit  it or not and you ar the one who spent it and bought somethign with it.  NO ONE ELSE.

It is a contradiction

It is an error

The bible is in error. 

The bible is NOT the 100% word of God.

Plain and simple.

Hustle Man

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #122 on: November 07, 2007, 10:42:17 AM »
So would you agree that faith entails the suspension of reason?

No, having faith in God does not mean one has suspended their ability to reason! I am sure you exercise faith everyday in some form or fashion!

Hebrews 11:1 & 3
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

This faith that we have in God is biblical and you can only get this faith if God gives it to you as a gift.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


The Ephesians quote was to point out that the Christian faith should be exuded in all humility never in arrogance.
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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #123 on: November 07, 2007, 02:30:22 PM »
OzmO,
Then why did you say "impossible" if you are not even sure?

my god, are you suggesting that his body exploded when he fell from a tree, this is highly debatable and ridiculous in fact

loco

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Re: Yet Another Biblical Contradiction
« Reply #124 on: November 07, 2007, 03:38:44 PM »
my god, are you suggesting that his body exploded when he fell from a tree, this is highly debatable and ridiculous in fact

No.  How did you get all that from me asking OzmO that question?    ;D

OzmO first said that it was impossible, then he admitted to the possibility of it happening if Judas body was decomposing.