The Exodus

[MCWAY]

It's carbon dioxide bubbling through the water.


The exact same thing happened a few years ago in Cameroon (Africa), it's a perfectly natural phenomenon.

Read about it here, (warning: this will involve reading something other than the Bible... and some science is involved)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos

Warning: This will involve Luke, posting more foolishness, leaving out details, and (perhaps) flat-out lying!!!

The Hebrew slaves all slept on their rooftops (which is still the custom in Egypt and Libya today), because it is cooler during hot nights.

However, among the Egyptians it was the heir apparent's job to protect the household at night... so the first born son of every Egyptian household slept downstairs on a propped (low-lying) bed.


As the Nile became saturated by CO₂ from the geological activity associated with the Mount Thera Eruption circa 1500 BC it turned a dark crimson colour and all the fish died (smothered by the CO₂) and any animals drinking large amounts of water (cows etc) would similarly be affected by the carbonic acid. When the CO₂ became super saturated it produced clouds of heavy CO₂ above the Nile.

There is no incline to the lower levels of the Nile (Egypt) so these clouds of CO₂ would simply float above the Nile till they eventually exceeded the rivers embankments and poured down into the ancient cities.

Anyone sleeping on the roof would remain above the metre high tidal wave of CO₂... everyone sleeping downstairs (the firstborn heirs of Egypt) would be suffocated by CO₂ supplanting the O₂ (oxygen) on their red blood cells.

No mystery... no miracle... just a natural event mythologised afterwards by people who couldn't understand it.


The Luke

Yet, this natural event, which just happened to occur on cue from Moses, prompted Pharoah to release his slaves AND give them a huge chunk of his own wealth. And these slaves walked from Egypt, without having to pick up a single sword in battle.

Keep in mind that this is more skeptic backtracking, after claiming for YEARS that the Exodus never occured and those plagues never hit Egypt.

[MCWAY]

Exodus 12:22-23
22 Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning. 23 When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.

Dang Luke, that Moses was a heck of a scientist...you know...being able to predict "Mount Thera Eruption circa 1500 BC." to the T.

Dang, that was some magical CO₂, killing nobody else except the first born of every Egyptian.    

And, this is under the gross assumption that all that the Egytians lived at the same level as the Hebrews. Or that the Egyptians simply didn't see the ash coming and simply run for higher ground.

[The Luke]

Dang, that was some magical CO₂, killing nobody else except the first born of every Egyptian.    

...eh, didn't you read my post.

When the CO₂ rolls downhill it kills everyone sleeping downstairs, none of the Hebrews slept downstairs... but the Egyptian first-born sons slept downstairs on low beds as a tradition.


All the stuff about Moses predicting the plagues and the Angel of Death killing the children of Egypt, that's all written in afterwards.


Certain things happen during these types of volcanic eruptions:
-earthquakes
-ash plumes on the horizon
-rains of ash
-rains of pyroclastic flow
-CO₂ saturation kills the fish and turns the water red
-with so much CO₂ in the water the frogs all come up on land
-clouds of CO₂ kill every large animal living on low ground
-there is a huge population boom for lice; flies and locusts (short lifecycle)

Compare that list with the plagues of Egypt and it's easy to see that ALL of the plagues/disasters detailed in Exodus are obviously volcanic-related phenomenon.


The Luke

[loco]

...eh, didn't you read my post.

When the CO₂ rolls downhill it kills everyone sleeping downstairs, none of the Hebrews slept downstairs... but the Egyptian first-born sons slept downstairs on low beds as a tradition.


All the stuff about Moses predicting the plagues and the Angel of Death killing the children of Egypt, that's all written in afterwards.


Certain things happen during these types of volcanic eruptions:
-earthquakes
-ash plumes on the horizon
-rains of ash
-rains of pyroclastic flow
-CO₂ saturation kills the fish and turns the water red
-with so much CO₂ in the water the frogs all come up on land
-clouds of CO₂ kill every large animal living on low ground
-there is a huge population boom for lice; flies and locusts (short lifecycle)

Compare that list with the plagues of Egypt and it's easy to see that ALL of the plagues/disasters detailed in Exodus are obviously volcanic-related phenomenon.


The Luke

Only the first born son slept downstairs?  Really?

Sure, now rewrite the whole event just so that it fits your world view.  Besides, as MCWAY said above, don't you atheists claim that none of this Exodus stuff in the Bible really happened, that the Hebrews were never there, that the plagues never touched Egypt?  Now you are admitting that it did happen?

[The Luke]

Only the first born son slept downstairs?  Really?

Sure, now rewrite the whole event just so that it fits your world view.  Besides, as MCWAY said above, don't you atheists claim that none of this Exodus stuff in the Bible really happened, that the Hebrews were never there, that the plagues never touched Egypt?  Now you are admitting that it did happen?

Actually yes, just the first born sons slept downstairs. That was the tradition, exactly as I explained it in the post you obviously didn't read.


Atheists/scientists have never argued that the Exodus never happened, just that there was very little evidence for it at one time. It's the Jesus story that almost certainly never happened.

Nowadays, thanks to archaeology and discoveries of ancient manuscripts there is plenty of evidence for many of the events described in the Bible related to the Exodus, but it didn't happen the way the Bible relates it:
-the plagues of Egypt were volcanic events; not supernatural intervention
-Moses is a conflation of several different historical figures
-the body of water translated as the Red Sea, never parted, it was Lake Manzala... which parts each spring tide
-Edom (ancient capital of the original Jewish state) has been written out of the Bible
-the Ark of the Covenant is a crude electrical capacitor; not a geni in a box
-the "burning bush" is actually (probably) the Thorn Apple which grows in Petra in Jordan (formerly the Valley of Edom)

...I've researched lots of this stuff; it's very interesting.

But I'm sure I'll be shouted down now by people who work from the assumption that the Bible is infallible and twist reality to affirm that delusion.


The Luke

[loco]

Actually yes, just the first born sons slept downstairs. That was the tradition, exactly as I explained it in the post you obviously didn't read.


Atheists/scientists have never argued that the Exodus never happened, just that there was very little evidence for it at one time. It's the Jesus story that almost certainly never happened.

Nowadays, thanks to archaeology and discoveries of ancient manuscripts there is plenty of evidence for many of the events described in the Bible related to the Exodus, but it didn't happen the way the Bible relates it:
-the plagues of Egypt were volcanic events; not supernatural intervention
-Moses is a conflation of several different historical figures
-the body of water translated as the Red Sea, never parted, it was Lake Manzala... which parts each spring tide
-Edom (ancient capital of the original Jewish state) has been written out of the Bible
-the Ark of the Covenant is a crude electrical capacitor; not a geni in a box
-the "burning bush" is actually (probably) the Thorn Apple which grows in Petra in Jordan (formerly the Valley of Edom)

...I've researched lots of this stuff; it's very interesting.

But I'm sure I'll be shouted down now by people who work from the assumption that the Bible is infallible and twist reality to affirm that delusion.


The Luke

You have problems believing what the Bible says, but you have no problems believing your own bs?  The last plague of Egypt was a volcanic event that killed nobody in the entire country of Egypt exept for the first born of every Egyptian household.    

Oh, and MCWAY, other Christians on the board and I have already destroyed your Jesus myth cut/paste theories time and time again.

[The Luke]

You have problems believing what the Bible says, but you have no problems believing your own bs?  The last plague of Egypt was a volcanic event that killed nobody in the entire country of Egypt exept for the first born of every Egyptian household.    

Oh, and MCWAY, other Christians on the board and I have already destroyed your Jesus myth cut/paste theories time and time again.

The exact same thing happened in Cameroon... the lake turned blood red; all the fish died; a carpet of CO₂ (it's heavier than air) rolled into the local villages and killed everyone, except those sleeping at higher ground; frogs bred out of control followed by flies and lice.

They thought God did it too.

It was actually CO₂ saturation caused by volcanic activity. Had it happened in a village where only the first born sons slept downstairs and everyone else slept upstairs or on the roof (as was the Egyptian custom) then only the first born sons would have died.

They were wrong.

You are wrong.


The Luke

[loco]

The exact same thing happened in Cameroon... the lake turned blood red; all the fish died; a carpet of CO₂ (it's heavier than air) rolled into the local villages and killed everyone, except those sleeping at higher ground; frogs bred out of control followed by flies and lice.

They thought God did it too.

It was actually CO₂ saturation caused by volcanic activity. Had it happened in a village where only the first born sons slept downstairs and everyone else slept upstairs or on the roof (as was the Egyptian custom) then only the first born sons would have died.

They were wrong.

You are wrong.


The Luke

There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to support that the first born sons of Egypt slept on the floor while other family members didn't.   That is simply an ignorant hypothesis from an Israeli/Canadian film director, Simcha Jacobovici, who is not a scholar, not a historian and not an archeologist.  He is nothing but a journalist trying to get attention.  You are simply repeating another man's ignorance as usual.

[MCWAY]

Actually yes, just the first born sons slept downstairs. That was the tradition, exactly as I explained it in the post you obviously didn't read.


Atheists/scientists have never argued that the Exodus never happened, just that there was very little evidence for it at one time. It's the Jesus story that almost certainly never happened.

That's a bunch of bull. Atheists, at one point, were screaming at their lungs' peak that the Exodus was a fictitious event and that Moses never existed. Now that the historical evidence has CRUSHED their musings, the skeptics have resorted to marginalizing or minimalizing the event.

[The Luke]

There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to support that the first born sons of Egypt slept on the floor while other family members didn't.   That is simply an ignorant hypothesis from an Israeli/Canadian film director, Simcha Jacobovici, who is not a scholar, not a historian and not an archeologist.  He is nothing but a journalist trying to get attention.  You are simply repeating another man's ignorance as usual.

...read what Egyptologists say on the subject.

There were several documentaries made here in (atheist) Europe picking apart the historical basis of the Exodus mythology long before james Cameron got involved... the detail about the beds is pretty well established.

If you want to check it out, you'll find that the "Boy Pharaoh" Tutankhamen was actually buried with one of these beds (and an Ark of the Covenant, but that is a different thread entirely).

I've read enough of your posts Loco to know that the part I've bolded above is not something you yourself wrote; it's parroted from another source... I'm guessing you lifted it wholecloth from a Christian Apologist website's vitriolic denigration of the Cameron documentary... am I right?


The Luke

[loco]

...read what Egyptologists say on the subject.

There were several documentaries made here in (atheist) Europe picking apart the historical basis of the Exodus mythology long before james Cameron got involved... the detail about the beds is pretty well established.

If you want to check it out, you'll find that the "Boy Pharaoh" Tutankhamen was actually buried with one of these beds (and an Ark of the Covenant, but that is a different thread entirely).

Let me say that again.  There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to support that the first born sons of Egypt slept on the floor while other family members didn't.  Stop making stuff up!

I've read enough of your posts Loco to know that the part I've bolded above is not something you yourself wrote; it's parroted from another source... I'm guessing you lifted it wholecloth from a Christian Apologist website's vitriolic denigration of the Cameron documentary... am I right?

The Luke

If that's true, then do a search and see if you can find elsewhere what I wrote here word for word.  No, I did not lift it off of some Christian apologist website.  Look who is talking, the one who says nothing original but does nothing except copy/paste from anti-religion extremists websites and repeats other people's ignorance.

Simcha Jacobovici made up the part about the first born of Egypt sleeping on the floor and being killed by a volcano.  You simply repeat his ignorance as if it were fact.  Jacobovici is a confirmed fraud.  

This has nothing to do with James Cameron.  What you are thinking of is another one of Jacobovici's scams, "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" which was an embarrassment to him, to James Cameron and to the Discovery Channel.

[The Luke]

Let me say that again.  There is absolutely no archaeological or historical evidence to support that the first born sons of Egypt slept on the floor while other family members didn't.  Stop making stuff up!

...I could be wrong, but I remember reading that lots and lots of these very low beds have been found by archaeologists and first born Pharaohs (King Tut) were actually buried with them....?

So I don't see the problem with such a hypothesis.


The Luke

[Captain Equipoise]

Just one question for all the believers in this thread... if god was/is so powerful and mighty, why would he have to bother the pharaoh with 10 plagues to GET HIM to release the hebrew slaves?

why not just use his 'godly' powers and free them himself ?!!? anyone ever think of that?

being all powerful and knowing I'm sure god could have just taken them out of egypt with his magic and a flick of his wrist, while at the same time killing the Egyptians... yet this didn't happen, by all (biblical) accounts of the story god was represented by moses who acted as a medium for god..

strange, no ?

maybe god was too busy doing things on the other side of the planet to be bothered

[The Luke]

Just one question for all the believers in this thread... if god was/is so powerful and mighty, why would he have to bother the pharaoh with 10 plagues to GET HIM to release the hebrew slaves?

why not just use his 'godly' powers and free them himself ?!!? anyone ever think of that?

being all powerful and knowing I'm sure god could have just taken them out of egypt with his magic and a flick of his wrist, while at the same time killing the Egyptians... yet this didn't happen, by all (biblical) accounts of the story god was represented by moses who acted as a medium for god..

Pharaoh was also a god.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

Just one question for all the believers in this thread... if god was/is so powerful and mighty, why would he have to bother the pharaoh with 10 plagues to GET HIM to release the hebrew slaves?

why not just use his 'godly' powers and free them himself ?!!? anyone ever think of that?

He did use His "godly" powers.

being all powerful and knowing I'm sure god could have just taken them out of egypt with his magic and a flick of his wrist, while at the same time killing the Egyptians... yet this didn't happen, by all (biblical) accounts of the story god was represented by moses who acted as a medium for god..

strange, no ?

Strange? One man demands that Pharoah release his people and somehow (with no weapons, no army, and no use of force of his own) Moses gets Pharoah to capitulate, not only releasing those people, but letting them walk with a significant amount of Egyptian loot.

Strange!!!!

maybe god was too busy doing things on the other side of the planet to be bothered

Or maybe God delivered the Israelites when He said He would. Or maybe we have yet another atheist, flapping his gums minus a foggy clue about what he speaks.

[MCWAY]

Pharaoh was also a god.


The Luke

Until his lifeless son lay before him. Then, he realized what was what and let Israel go.

Some folks have to learn the hard way.

[Captain Equipoise]

He did use His "godly" powers.

Strange? One man demands that Pharoah release his people and somehow (with no weapons, no army, and no use of force of his own) Moses gets Pharoah to capitulate, not only releasing those people, but letting them walk with a significant amount of Egyptian loot.

Strange!!!!

Or maybe God delivered the Israelites when He said He would. Or maybe we have yet another atheist, flapping his gums minus a foggy clue about what he speaks.

Hardly seems like a 'godly' task or at least manner in which it was done, not impressed.

[MCWAY]

Hardly seems like a 'godly' task or at least manner in which it was done, not impressed.

Based on what? His people get delivered without lifting one sword in combat (and walk with Egypt's loot). Not too shabby, to me.

BTW, Define a 'godly task', please.

[Captain Equipoise]

Based on what? His people get delivered without lifting one sword in combat (and walk with Egypt's loot). Not too shabby, to me.

BTW, Define a 'godly task', please.

I would consider an act of god (if one did exist) completely supernatural, effortless and significant enough (ie. turning mount everest upside down in the blink of an eye and having it rest on it's tip) not pleading and begging a pharaoh to let 'his people' go or else his 'god' will unleash 10 plagues all of which can be deduced by science and have been explained over and over and over. Some people just don't get it

[MCWAY]

I would consider an act of god (if one did exist) completely supernatural, effortless and significant enough (ie. turning mount everest upside down in the blink of an eye and having it rest on it's tip) not pleading and begging a pharaoh to let 'his people' go or else his 'god' will unleash 10 plagues all of which can be deduced by science and have been explained over and over and over. Some people just don't get it

And you fit right on the list of those who don't get it. There was no "begging" involved. Pharoah was going to release Israel, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. The easy way: He lets them go, with minimal damage to himself and and his kingdom.

The hard way: Well, we all know how tha went.

Plus, your so-called deductions don't quite cut the mustard. Why exactly would mere natural phenomenom make Pharoah release the Israelites? I mentioned this to BayGBM some time ago. There's a scene in The Ten Commandments in which Rameses screams at Moses and the Egyptian priests, claiming a a report of a mountain spewing red mud came to him, claiming that was the reason for the disasters. Of course, a few more plagues later, his priests were still pleading with Pharoah to let Israel go.

Of course, the back-breaker was the slaying of the firstborn, including his own son.

So, for 400 years, Israel's been in bondage. Yet they only get released once Egypt get hit with a slew of natural disasters, which just so happened to hit WHEN Moses says, WHERE Moses says, HOW Moses says, for as long as Moses says. And, Israel goes free, without lifting a single sword in combat and with Egypt's loot.

Of course, folks like you claimed that the Exodus never happened at all. So, your quip about science deducing wht happened with the plagues just make your claim look silly.

[Captain Equipoise]

And you fit right on the list of those who don't get it. There was no "begging" involved. Pharoah was going to release Israel, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. The easy way: He lets them go, with minimal damage to himself and and his kingdom.

The hard way: Well, we all know how tha went.

Plus, your so-called deductions don't quite cut the mustard. Why exactly would mere natural phenomenom make Pharoah release the Israelites? I mentioned this to BayGBM some time ago. There's a scene in The Ten Commandments in which Rameses screams at Moses and the Egyptian priests, claiming a a report of a mountain spweing red mud came to hiM, claiming that was the reason for the disasters. Of course, a few more plagues later, his priests were still pleading with Pharoah to let Israel go.

Of course, the back-breaker was the slayin gothe firstborn, including his own son.

So, for 400 years, Israel's been in bondage. Yet they only get released once Egypt get hit with a slew of natural disasters, which just so happened to hit WHEN Moses says, WHERE Moses says, HOW Moses says, for as long as Moses says. And, Israel goes free, without lifting a single sword in combat and with Egypt's loot.

Of course, folks like you claimed that the Exodus never happened at all. So, your quip about science deducing wht happened with the plagues just make your claim look silly.

Dear close minded religious zealot, do you have any historical proof of this exodus or 10 plagues actually happening!?!? (no, I do not consider your bible a historically accurate work)

How about multiple sources? surely there must be some if this event involved both the Egyptians and the Israelites ?...

[MCWAY]

Dear close minded religious zealot, do you have any historical proof of this exodus or 10 plagues actually happening!?!? (no, I do not consider your bible a historically accurate work)

How about multiple sources? surely there must be some if this event involved both the Egyptians and the Israelites ?...

Wait a minute!! Weren't you just citing the fact that the plagues could be deduced by science? Now you're claiming that they didn't happen at all.

As for historical proof and multiple sources (notwithstanding that I couldn't care less whether you consider the Bible an historically accurate work), there are extra-Biblical sources citing the Exodus, that are well-documented (i.e. Philo, Josephus, etc).

Then again, that claim of lack of multiple sources was made once before by atheists and skeptics. We all know how well that worked.

[Captain Equipoise]

Wait a minute!! Weren't you just citing the fact that the plagues could be deduced by science? Now you're claiming that they didn't happen at all.

As for historical proof and multiple sources (notwithstanding that I couldn't care less whether you consider the Bible an historically accurate work), there are extra-Biblical sources citing the Exodus, that are well-documented (i.e. Philo, Josephus, etc).

Then again, that claim of lack of multiple sources was made once before by atheists and skeptics. We all know how well that worked.

None of the 10 supposed 'plagues' are out of the question for being natural events.. read Bay's post again and it all makes sense,

in the end..they can be deduced by science but there IS NO FACTUAL and ACCURATE PROOF THAT THEY EVER DID HAPPEN (at least in that chronological order) some of these 'events' have been witnessed over the centuries but the only thing stating things in the way of 10 plagues caused by a 'god' is the bible which is a 2,000 year old fantasy book written by unconfirmed sources and edited for content and censored (gnostic gospels removed, etc.) for 2,000 years by every reigning papal monarchy.

[MCWAY]

None of the 10 supposed 'plagues' are out of the question for being natural events.. read Bay's post again and it all makes sense,

I've read Bay's comments already.  At no time does he dismiss the supernatural factor, regarding the plagues, (i.e. they happen only when Moses arrives and especially the last one, which kills SPECIFICALLY the firstborn of Egypt, leaving Israel unscatched).

in the end..they can be deduced by science but there IS NO FACTUAL and ACCURATE PROOF THAT THEY EVER DID HAPPEN (at least in that chronological order) some of these 'events' have been witnessed over the centuries but the only thing stating things in the way of 10 plagues caused by a 'god' is the bible which is a 2,000 year old fantasy book written by unconfirmed sources and edited for content and censored (gnostic gospels removed, etc.) for 2,000 years by every reigning papal monarchy.

That is incorrect. The Bible is NOT the only thng that states the Exodus or the plagues. There are the writings of Philo, Josephus, Manetho, Diodorus Siculus etc.

[Captain Equipoise]

I've read Bay's comments already.  At no time does he dismiss the supernatural factor, regarding the plagues, (i.e. they happen only when Moses arrives and especially the last one, which kills SPECIFICALLY the firstborn of Egypt, leaving Israel unscatched).

That is incorrect. The Bible is NOT the only thng that states the Exodus or the plagues. There are the writings of Philo, Josephus, Manetho, Diodorus Siculus etc.

See! there you go! this is the kind of information I was looking for...you actually managed to find some 'other' historical references outside of the bible! I'm proud of you!