Huckabee: Abortion not states' call

[Cap]

in my example the woman in on birth control so although conception might be possible it is highly unlikely and that isolates the issue of promiscuity.  I have a problem understanding how one can say that the same action can be more immoral if a woman does it than if a man does it, especially given the fact that, as a general rule, men are more sexually driven than woman and also tend to be the sexual aggressors. 

Promiscuity has nothing to do with pregnancy but rather many sexual partners and sex is considered casual.  Granted, I am picking on women because unless they are raped, they control sex.  If your wife doesn't want to have sex with you, either you commit marital rape or go to bed with an erection.  Both men and women are immoral these days but women have the final say.  I think men talk sexual more than they act.  It's easy to say you got laid but another to actually do it.  Women, IMO, are just as sexual if not more so than men, they just don't go around like walking "hard-ons". Men tend to be aggressors, but women hold the true power there.

[Straw Man]

Promiscuity has nothing to do with pregnancy but rather many sexual partners and sex is considered casual.  Granted, I am picking on women because unless they are raped, they control sex.  If your wife doesn't want to have sex with you, either you commit marital rape or go to bed with an erection.  Both men and women are immoral these days but women have the final say.  I think men talk sexual more than they act.  It's easy to say you got laid but another to actually do it.  Women, IMO, are just as sexual if not more so than men, they just don't go around like walking "hard-ons". Men tend to be aggressors, but women hold the true power there.

Personally, I have no problem with sexual freedom or if you prefer the term, promiscuity.  It's a personal choice.  One chooses it and lives with the consequences. I don't see how one sex (in this case male) can judge the other sex as being somehow morally more responsible just because, as you suggest, she has the "final say".  I don't see how that makes any difference. If sex is consensual then both parties are equally responsible for the outcome good or bad.   

Then again, I see nothing immoral about sex in the first place.  As long as it's consensual and between legal adults it's not an issue for me.

Males judging woman more harshly for the same exact behaviour makes no sense and reminds me of the misogynistic attitudes of Islam

Can you give me an example where the roles are reversed i.e  same actions but where the male is held to a higher moral standard?

[Cap]

Personally, I have no problem with sexual freedom or if you prefer the term, promiscuity.  It's a personal choice.  One chooses it and lives with the consequences. I don't see how one sex (in this case male) can judge the other sex as being somehow morally more responsible just because, as you suggest, she has the "final say".  I don't see how that makes any difference. If sex is consensual then both parties are equally responsible for the outcome good or bad.   

Then again, I see nothing immoral about sex in the first place.  As long as it's consensual and between legal adults it's not an issue for me.

Males judging woman more harshly for the same exact behaviour makes no sense and reminds me of the misogynistic attitudes of Islam

Can you give me an example where the roles are reversed i.e  same actions but where the male is held to a higher moral standard?

Rape.  Domestic violence. 

As far as the misogyny tones, I see your point.  I guess lost in that post was some level of the fact that men have always been sexual deviants IMO.  We have always been horny SOBs looking for sex.  Women have become progressively more liberal with their bodies and as that has increased, things have gotten worse.  It is tough because even I don't want a sexually repressive society but I think women have dropped below the level of even men and it has caused a lot of problems.  With regards to abortion, as women have become "looser" (as my grandma would say) there have been more bastard children and also more abortions.  Virginity has never been an option for men but is a joke now for women.  Look at Myspace or Facebook and you'll see what I mean.  I'm not a prude and think you need to marry the person you want to have sex with but I'm also not a big fan of abortions, bastard children, and STDs which all result from unsafe and rampant sex.  All I'm saying is that one should have fun but think about the consequences.  Women simply don't have to anymore because abortion is the perfect fail safe, and they know it.

[Dos Equis]

Outlawing abortions will not stop abortions in this country.

However, outlawing abortions in this country will create more problems.

Stopping abortions starts with the person not the law.


PS:   go Warriors!

Using that rationale, what's the difference between outlawing abortion on one hand and murder, stealing, and drug sales/use, etc. on the other?  Outlawing murder, stealing, drug sales/use, etc. doesn't stop those crimes either.  Outlawing those things has resulted in enormous expenditures on law enforcement, prosecution, defense, and incarceration.

[Dos Equis]

The moral tone of the country and women particular shows this will not be changing any time soon.  The biggest problem in this country would be foster children/costs but that could be alleviated in a few different ways.  1.) kick all the illegals out to free up $, 2.) allow for easier adoptions so parents don't have to go to Vietnam to get a child, 3.) mass distribute contraception in the poor neighborhoods.

Would foster children really be a problem?  I doubt women would abandon their children in droves.  I think if a woman is "forced" to have a baby, she will likely take care of that baby. 

[Cap]

Would foster children really be a problem?  I doubt women would abandon their children in droves.  I think if a woman is "forced" to have a baby, she will likely take care of that baby. 

I think foster children are great and after hearing stories of foster parents being denied adoptions rights, I was appalled.  We get babies from other countries but we don't help the ones here.  I stated it as a problem in the sense that this specific argument is the one that opposition to my thinking presents.  They say it will cost more in terms of welfare and foster care. 

As for being forced, whether by law or beliefs, I have a family member and the previously mentioned friend who have/had illegitimate children and the former was adopted and the latter has kept her two.  Neither have the financial means to really have children, based on education and income, but they have made due and are not living on Skid Row.

[Dos Equis]

I think foster children are great and after hearing stories of foster parents being denied adoptions rights, I was appalled.  We get babies from other countries but we don't help the ones here.  I stated it as a problem in the sense that this specific argument is the one that opposition to my thinking presents.  They say it will cost more in terms of welfare and foster care. 

As for being forced, whether by law or beliefs, I have a family member and the previously mentioned friend who have/had illegitimate children and the former was adopted and the latter has kept her two.  Neither have the financial means to really have children, based on education and income, but they have made due and are not living on Skid Row.

Understood. 

I know of many examples of "unwanted" childbirths and have never seen an instance where either the mother or her family did not care for the child.  We have an example in my church right now.  Teen pregnancy.  Grandma is helping raise the kid and brings the kid to church every week.  The teen is working and taking care of her kid too. 

[Dos Equis]

PS:   go Warriors!

Yeah Baby!     I was screaming my head off.  That's the most fun I've ever had a football game.  The place was crazy.  Throat is sore.  I sound like Louis Armstrong.    Round two is next week against UW.  I guess I should start drinking some tea or something.

[OzmO]

Using that rationale, what's the difference between outlawing abortion on one hand and murder, stealing, and drug sales/use, etc. on the other?  Outlawing murder, stealing, drug sales/use, etc. doesn't stop those crimes either.  Outlawing those things has resulted in enormous expenditures on law enforcement, prosecution, defense, and incarceration.

Because killing someone outside the womb is universally accepted as murder by our society where as aborting a fetus isn't.

[Dos Equis]

Because killing someone outside the womb is universally accepted as murder by our society where as aborting a fetus isn't.

True. 

I was referring to your mention of the increased costs associated with outlawing abortion.  How is that different than costs associated with outlawing any other act?   

[OzmO]

True. 

I was referring to your mention of the increased costs associated with outlawing abortion.  How is that different than costs associated with outlawing any other act?   

No different other than incurring a cost where there was none to begin with.

[Dos Equis]

No different other than incurring a cost where there was none to begin with.

I wonder if we can put a price tag on protecting human life?  I've had this discussion in the death penalty context.  It costs more to execute someone (with the years of legal proceedings) than have them spend life in prison.  I don't like the fact that it takes 15 or 20 years to execute someone, but I wonder if you can really put a price tag on people facing death.  I relate this to the abortion context too.  I'm thinking we should probably remove the cost element from the equation.   

[loco]

Because killing someone outside the womb is universally accepted as murder by our society where as aborting a fetus isn't.

Unbelievable.  So if killing the elder and the crippled becomes "universally accepted", then you will embrace it and condone it.     

So the unborn babies do not have a say so in this?  They must die because society has made it "universally accepted" to kill them and not call it murder?  Well, it is not so "universally accepted".  I do not accept it, and neither do many out there who oppose legal abortions.

[OzmO]

Unbelievable.  So if killing the elder and the crippled becomes "universally accepted", then you will embrace it and condone it.     

So the unborn babies do not have a say so in this?  They must die because society has made it "universally accepted" to kill them and not call it murder?  Well, it is not so "universally accepted".  I do not accept it, and neither do many out there who oppose legal abortions.

No.

Your are really thick  headed and desperate aren't you loco?

here's what that response was from:

Using that rationale, what's the difference between outlawing abortion on one hand and murder, stealing, and drug sales/use, etc. on the other?  Outlawing murder, stealing, drug sales/use, etc. doesn't stop those crimes either.  Outlawing those things has resulted in enormous expenditures on law enforcement, prosecution, defense, and incarceration.

becuase it was based on this:

Outlawing abortions will not stop abortions in this country.

However, outlawing abortions in this country will create more problems.

Stopping abortions starts with the person not the law.

I'm not going to vote for something (a law) that's going to cause more problems and not stop the problem to begin with.

But i will live my life and influence any and all around me not to have an abortion.

[Dos Equis]

I'm not going to vote for something (a law) that's going to cause more problems and not stop the problem to begin with.

Don't we all do that already?  We vote to outlaw various acts, but all we do is slow those acts down and then spend enormous amounts of money on law enforcement, the courts, and locking people up. 

[OzmO]

Don't we all do that already?  We vote to outlaw various acts, but all we do is slow those acts down and then spend enormous amounts of money on law enforcement, the courts, and locking people up. 

The difference here is that i don't believe outlawing abortion will significantly slow it down becuase of what i said earlier.  You see the same thing with drug use.  But you won't see the same thing with murder or theft.

People universally see murder and theft as something wrong but people don't universally see drug use (including alcohol and cigarettes) as something wrong.  Until abortion is viewed as murder in the same amount of people as homicide and theft is, making abortion illegal will not stop it or slow it down.

Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die.  (in other words, people don't want to take responsibility for their actions)

[Dos Equis]

The difference here is that i don't believe outlawing abortion will significantly slow it down becuase of what i said earlier.  You see the same thing with drug use.  But you won't see the same thing with murder or theft.

People universally see murder and theft as something wrong but people don't universally see drug use (including alcohol and cigarettes) as something wrong.  Until abortion is viewed as murder in the same amount of people as homicide and theft is, making abortion illegal will not stop it or slow it down.

Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die.  (in other words, people don't want to take responsibility for their actions)

What about pedophilia?  I recall hearing or reading a while back that the recidivism rate is about 90 percent.  In other words, the law doesn't stop and arguably doesn't significantly slow instances of pedophilia.  We still outlaw it because we are doing what we can to protect innocent children.  It's the right thing to do. 

We can draw the same parallels to property crime in Hawaii (astronomically high), murder in some of the big cities, drugs all over the place.  We outlaw conduct to protect the public and potential victims and we don't base those laws on economics and/or typically whether the law will stop the conduct. 

I think if abortion is outlawed there is no way abortion will continue at its current pace.  If doctors who perform illegal abortions are subject to the loss of their licenses and/or prison, they will by and large stop performing the procedures. 

[Straw Man]

Rape.  Domestic violence. 

As far as the misogyny tones, I see your point.  I guess lost in that post was some level of the fact that men have always been sexual deviants IMO.  We have always been horny SOBs looking for sex.  Women have become progressively more liberal with their bodies and as that has increased, things have gotten worse.  It is tough because even I don't want a sexually repressive society but I think women have dropped below the level of even men and it has caused a lot of problems.  With regards to abortion, as women have become "looser" (as my grandma would say) there have been more bastard children and also more abortions.  Virginity has never been an option for men but is a joke now for women.  Look at Myspace or Facebook and you'll see what I mean.  I'm not a prude and think you need to marry the person you want to have sex with but I'm also not a big fan of abortions, bastard children, and STDs which all result from unsafe and rampant sex.  All I'm saying is that one should have fun but think about the consequences.  Women simply don't have to anymore because abortion is the perfect fail safe, and they know it.

You started wtith the premise that women should be held to a higher moral standard (as defined by you) for the act of consensual sex but then when asked to provide an example of a situation where men are held to a higher standard you've cited rape and domenstic violence, neither of which is anything equivalent to a consensual act between two adults.  I'm not so sure that men are held to a higher standard in either case.  Maybe it just seems that way because they commit 99% of the rapes and probably 90% of the domestic violence.   

I know we've veered off topic here but it seems like you might have some anger towards women.  Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're saying that access to legal abortion has allowed women to have sex without consequence (the same criticism was levied when the pill became legal) thereby causing women to become "loose" which has resulted in rampant, unsafe sex which has created the problem of "bastard children", stds, etc...  and extrapolating, the "solution" to the problem of  "loose women" is to make abortion illegal??

You also said that virginity has never been an option for men but is now a joke for women and I don't really understand what you mean by this statement.

I really sense a latent anger toward women which I think is actually pretty common among certain segment of the religious right/anti-abortion crowd

[Cap]

You asked for situations where actions by both sexes are the same and men are held to a higher standard.  Women have the battered women defense, what do men have?  In those two situations, the laws are set up against men and not women.  Hell, society chastises men who admit rape and DV.  Men commit 85% of the REPORTED DV but the other acts are considered mutual combat or are not reported.  Is that fair to men?

To your second paragraph, yes that is the problem and that could be the solution IMO.  It won't happen overnight but as abortion has become rampant women have become a lot worse.  I have anger at the impunity women operate with on a number of levels and we excuse it because of differences in pay or under the guise of equal rights and female power.  Look at rape (where women lie all the time), DV (where men get arrested for mutual combat), and divorce (where men end up in financial ruin because of their wife).

Re: virginity. Men, as a majority, have never really valued virginity.  To be a male virgin is a joke to other males.  For women, it used to be something highly valued and now it is not.  Society has seen the biggest change in women and their sexuality, not men.  I don't hate women but I'm sick of hearing the excuses for women's behavior. 

[Straw Man]

You asked for situations where actions by both sexes are the same and men are held to a higher standard.  Women have the battered women defense, what do men have?  In those two situations, the laws are set up against men and not women.  Hell, society chastises men who admit rape and DV.  Men commit 85% of the REPORTED DV but the other acts are considered mutual combat or are not reported.  Is that fair to men?

To your second paragraph, yes that is the problem and that could be the solution IMO.  It won't happen overnight but as abortion has become rampant women have become a lot worse.  I have anger at the impunity women operate with on a number of levels and we excuse it because of differences in pay or under the guise of equal rights and female power.  Look at rape (where women lie all the time), DV (where men get arrested for mutual combat), and divorce (where men end up in financial ruin because of their wife).

Re: virginity. Men, as a majority, have never really valued virginity.  To be a male virgin is a joke to other males.  For women, it used to be something highly valued and now it is not.  Society has seen the biggest change in women and their sexuality, not men.  I don't hate women but I'm sick of hearing the excuses for women's behavior. 

Thanks for making that more clear

[OzmO]

What about pedophilia?  I recall hearing or reading a while back that the recidivism rate is about 90 percent.  In other words, the law doesn't stop and arguably doesn't significantly slow instances of pedophilia.  We still outlaw it because we are doing what we can to protect innocent children.  It's the right thing to do. 

Pedophilia is a very small part of the population.  the part of the population who feel it's a mother's right to chose is at least 50% don't you think?  I might be mistaken, but i would think that if it was smaller, the law would have been changed by now.

We can draw the same parallels to property crime in Hawaii (astronomically high), murder in some of the big cities, drugs all over the place.  We outlaw conduct to protect the public and potential victims and we don't base those laws on economics and/or typically whether the law will stop the conduct. 

what's the ratio of those who think theft is wrong to those who think mother's should have the right to choose?  that's my point.  It's the same with drugs and the same in reverse with pedophiles.

I think if abortion is outlawed there is no way abortion will continue at its current pace.  If doctors who perform illegal abortions are subject to the loss of their licenses and/or prison, they will by and large stop performing the procedures.

When it was outlawed abortions happened in basements.  If it's outlawed today, it will still happen at nearly the same rate as it does today when it's legal becuase people have access to information and services far greater than they did when it was illegal.  there are far more people who fundamentally believe it's a mother's right to choose including a large percentage of law enforcement.

It would be as much of a waste of time and money as it is to stop alcohol and pot.

[Dos Equis]

Pedophilia is a very small part of the population.  the part of the population who feel it's a mother's right to chose is at least 50% don't you think?  I might be mistaken, but i would think that if it was smaller, the law would have been changed by now.

what's the ratio of those who think theft is wrong to those who think mother's should have the right to choose?  that's my point.  It's the same with drugs and the same in reverse with pedophiles.

When it was outlawed abortions happened in basements.  If it's outlawed today, it will still happen at nearly the same rate as it does today when it's legal becuase people have access to information and services far greater than they did when it was illegal.  there are far more people who fundamentally believe it's a mother's right to choose including a large percentage of law enforcement.

It would be as much of a waste of time and money as it is to stop alcohol and pot.

With the exception of groups like pedophiles, NAMBLA, and at times the ACLU, I'd say pretty much the entire population believes pedophilia is wrong.  The point I was trying to make is that despite the fact pedophilia is outlawed, the law doesn't appear to be a strong deterrent to pedophiles, meaning the law doesn't prevent those crimes from occurring.   

I'm addressing two of the points you raised:  (a) outlawing abortion will not stop or even reduce abortions and (b) the increased costs associated with outlawing abortion is a reason we should not outlaw abortion.  Whether a majority of the country believes abortion is murder really doesn't factor into those two points.   

What I'm saying is you cannot separate those two reasons from most other crimes in this country.

We will have to agree to disagree on whether illegal abortions would occur at the same rate as legal abortions.  I just can't see that happening.  I don't think there is any way doctors will risk their livelihoods and prison.  I'm sure some would, but they would likely be the exception and not the rule.       

[OzmO]

With the exception of groups like pedophiles, NAMBLA, and at times the ACLU, I'd say pretty much the entire population believes pedophilia is wrong.  The point I was trying to make is that despite the fact pedophilia is outlawed, the law doesn't appear to be a strong deterrent to pedophiles, meaning the law doesn't prevent those crimes from occurring.   

I'm addressing two of the points you raised:  (a) outlawing abortion will not stop or even reduce abortions and (b) the increased costs associated with outlawing abortion is a reason we should not outlaw abortion.  Whether a majority of the country believes abortion is murder really doesn't factor into those two points.   

What I'm saying is you cannot separate those two reasons from most other crimes in this country.

We will have to agree to disagree on whether illegal abortions would occur at the same rate as legal abortions.  I just can't see that happening.  I don't think there is any way doctors will risk their livelihoods and prison.  I'm sure some would, but they would likely be the exception and not the rule.       

i don't disagree outlawing abortion would decrease abortions, i just don't think it will decrease anything close to something significant, just like pot.

[Decker]

A parent is always in control of their child so why is it okay to kill your child when they are in your womb but not 2 years down the road when there is even more inconvenience?  How can you differentiate murdering your child?  Having a doctor stab your baby in the head is no different than paying a hitman to whack your husband/wife.

Circumstances for the child before and after birth differ.  Before birth, the child is part of the woman's body.  After birth, the child is not part of the woman's body b/c he/she is a sentient creature.

That's the differentiation.

[Colossus_500]

I agree with my alter ego.  Hey we are like twins:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096320/

You're Arnold.  I'm Danny. 

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAA