Roger Clemens was a juicer.. hahahahaha

[Camel Jockey]

That's why dan duquette offered him shit.... He was in a horrible tailspin in '96...then all of a sudden he gets disrespected by the sox and he's pitching like he was 23 again....fucking bitch

I bet he upped his drug useage when he was with the Astros. No pressure there and juice = awesome.

He didn't do so well with the yanks because of the added pressure of pitching in NY. Don't care how much you juice, it takes special mental ability to do well in the biggest of stages.

I was watching the YES network(Yankee's channel) and they did a special on Clemens.. He talked of becoming a bodybuilder after he retired.. hahahaha Guess it makes sense now.

[BayGBM]

Just saw it on fox sports news.. hahaha He took winny and a personal trainer admitted to injecting him. 

I'd inject him! 

[Cap]

I'm not saying they couldn't; I'm saying there was no interest.  Do you know anything about baseball?  If so, you'll know that lifting weights was SHUNNED in the 60's and 70's.  It was thought that lifting weights would slow you down and make you "muscle bound"...Why do you think barry bonds was so fucking skinny when he entered the league....couldn't he have gotten steroids when he was playing baseball in college or even high school?

How's that logic?

Okay, well Zane trained and was skinny so you really think you can't get anything out of steroids even without training?  Dystrka claimed he didn't lift during a season while on gear.  Bonds didn't juice hardcore until he saw a white dude getting records and recognition he wanted.  He knew he could hit and if he got the power like Mac he could break those HR records.  If you think Bonds didn't juice early on you are naive.

Mass04, so essentially you said he sucked for half his time in Boston.  Your statement clearly says that so I take that at face value.  By everyone's logic Clemens should have had more CY Youngs since he was "hitting it hard after 2000".  BTW, he still isn't fit; still big and puffy.

CJ-Bonds is directly linked to a lab who ran everything for him and he admitted to taking things that were roids and he failed an amphetamine test.  He has admitted to juicing just unknowingly.     Mac and Clemens have just been named by people who have gotten in trouble.  I say it again, Zane juiced and was skinny so guys needing to play definitely took something.  Speed was okay but not roids?   

Tu-I'm fine with that I'm  just saying that if Mac goes down then Bonds and all the rest should because he retired before anything was in place, assuming he did it which I don't think he did.

[mass 04]

still, he's rich.   many people here use steroids and are still poor.

leave pro bodybuilders alone. 

[mass 04]

Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP  IBB  BK  ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 1984 21 BOS AL   9   4  21  20   5   1   0  0  133.3  146   67   64  13   29  126   2   4   575   3   0  4.32  4.20   97 1.313 RoY-6
 1985 22 BOS AL   7   5  15  15   3   1   0  0   98.3   83   38   36   5   37   74   3   1   407   0   3  3.29  4.32  131 1.220
 1986 23 BOS AL  24   4  33  33  10   1   0  0  254.0  179   77   70  21   67  238   4  11   997   0   3  2.48  4.19  169 0.969 MVP-1,CYA-1,AS
 1987 24 BOS AL  20   9  36  36  18   7   0  0  281.7  248  100   93  19   83  256   9   4  1157   4   3  2.97  4.56  154 1.175 MVP-19,CYA-1
 1988 25 BOS AL  18  12  35  35  14   8   0  0  264.0  217   93   86  17   62  291   6   4  1063   4   7  2.93  4.13  141 1.057 CYA-6,AS
 1989 26 BOS AL  17  11  35  35   8   3   0  0  253.3  215  101   88  20   93  230   8   7  1044   5   0  3.13  4.13  132 1.216
 1990 27 BOS AL  21   6  31  31   7   4   0  0  228.3  193   59   49   7   54  209   7   8   920   3   0  1.93  4.11  213 1.082 MVP-3,CYA-2,AS
 1991 28 BOS AL  18  10  35  35  13   4   0  0  271.3  219   93   79  15   65  241   5   6  1077  12   0  2.62  4.31  164 1.047 MVP-10,CYA-1,AS
 1992 29 BOS AL  18  11  32  32  11   5   0  0  246.7  203   80   66  11   62  208   9   3   989   5   0  2.41  4.23  175 1.074 MVP-14,CYA-3,AS
 1993 30 BOS AL  11  14  29  29   2   1   0  0  191.7  175   99   95  17   67  160  11   3   808   4   1  4.46  4.64  104 1.263
 1994 31 BOS AL   9   7  24  24   3   1   0  0  170.7  124   62   54  15   71  168   4   4   692   1   0  2.85  5.05  177 1.143
 1995 32 BOS AL  10   5  23  23   0   0   0  0  140.0  141   70   65  15   60  132  14   9   623   0   0  4.18  4.86  116 1.436
 1996 33 BOS AL  10  13  34  34   6   2   0  0  242.7  216  106   98  19  106  257   4   8  1032   2   1  3.63  5.05  139 1.327
 1997 34 TOR AL  21   7  34  34   9   3   0  0  264.0  204   65   60   9   68  292  12   4  1044   1   0  2.05  4.53  221 1.030 MVP-10,CYA-1,AS
 1998 35 TOR AL  20   6  33  33   5   3   0  0  234.7  169   78   69  11   88  271   7   6   961   0   0  2.65  4.61  174 1.095 MVP-11,CYA-1,AS
 1999 36 NYY AL  14  10  30  30   1   1   0  0  187.7  185  101   96  20   90  163   9   8   822   0   0  4.60  4.73  103 1.465
 2000 37 NYY AL  13   8  32  32   1   0   0  0  204.3  184   96   84  26   84  188  10   2   878   0   1  3.70  4.82  130 1.312 CYA-6
 2001 38 NYY AL  20   3  33  33   0   0   0  0  220.3  205   94   86  19   72  213   5  14   918   1   0  3.51  4.48  128 1.257 MVP-8,CYA-1,AS
 2002 39 NYY AL  13   6  29  29   0   0   0  0  180.0  172   94   87  18   63  192   7  14   768   6   0  4.35  4.42  102 1.306
 2003 40 NYY AL  17   9  33  33   1   1   0  0  211.7  199   99   92  24   58  190   5   5   878   1   0  3.91  4.39  112 1.214 AS
 2004 41 HOU NL  18   4  33  33   0   0   0  0  214.3  169   76   71  15   79  218   6   5   878   5   0  2.98  4.36  146 1.157 MVP-8,CYA-1,AS
 2005 42 HOU NL  13   8  32  32   1   0   0  0  211.3  151   51   44  11   62  185   3   3   838   5   1  1.87  4.23  226 1.008 MVP-22,CYA-3,AS
 2006 43 HOU NL   7   6  19  19   0   0   0  0  113.3   89   34   29   7   29  102   4   3   451   1   0  2.30  4.45  193 1.041
 2007 44 NYY AL   6   6  18  17   0   0   0  0   99.0   99   52   46   9   31   68   5   7   420   0   0  4.18  4.47  107 1.313
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 24 Yr WL% .658 354 184 709 707 118  46   0  0 4916.7 4185 1885 1707 363 1580 4672 159 143 20240  63  20  3.12  4.46  143 1.173


He was a completely different pitcher from 93-96 and 97-05, I don't know what effect what he took had on his performance but it makes you wonder. Like i said he is still one of the best ever. If not the best.

[tleilaxutank]

Okay, well Zane trained and was skinny so you really think you can't get anything out of steroids even without training?    If you think Bonds didn't juice early on you are naive.

You think zane was skinny?  Haha you've been posting on this board too long.  Zane was small by bodybuiding proportions.  Compared to the average man (or baseball player circa 1980) he was HUGE.

I challenge anyone on this board that isn't a pro (juiced or otherwise) to show this level of muscularity


and just to be clear...you are comparing zane to this guy

[str8-T]

I just don't see why this is big news? Isn't it blantantly obvious steroid use is rampant in professional sports. TO be the best you have to make sacrifices... using performance enhancing drugs is a method to improve your performance. The general public wants to see super athletes and great performances but criticize those who use drugs to help them get results. I think people shouldn't be so judgemental when it comes to professional athletes drug use. Drugs are so rampant in American society... I dont see why sports should be any different..at least they are doing it for a purpose as opposed to recreational drug users. With that being said why doesnt our media focus on more pressing issues like providing public healthcare for those who can't afford it.. we are the only country on a list of countries with the top 10 GDp's in the world who doesnt provide public healthcare. Still there are a lot of hardworking people living at or above poverty level and are barely making ends meet...instead of helping those people improve their quality of life the government and news media wastes time on this shit...absolutely mindblowing...

[Cap]

Mass-I see what you are saying but I think if he is juicing now and not getting Cy Youngs it could just be a rough spell like those three years you mentioned.

Tleilaxutank-compared to Arnold he was tiny.  180 and ripped is awesome but def not HUGE.  He was a great BBer but there were many guys at his time who could outmass him without the cuts.  Like I said, great BBer but shows that you don't blow up enormously from juicing alone.  That was my point.  BTW, I'd take his physique over Coleman any day.

[ferd]

He obviously didn't look like he was taking anything.  He was probably working with a trainer and as far as nutrition goes, well...he was obviously not real strict with that.  He may well have been taking only enough that would have, at his age been equivalant to a replacement.  Who knows.  With the amount of money involved......who could blame him if it would help him hang on for a few more years.  He should have been sticking himself so that no one could testify that they injected him.

[Moosejay]

You think zane was skinny?  Haha you've been posting on this board too long.  Zane was small by bodybuiding proportions.  Compared to the average man (or baseball player circa 1980) he was HUGE.

I challenge anyone on this board that isn't a pro (juiced or otherwise) to show this level of muscularity


and just to be clear...you are comparing zane to this guy

Excellent post.

Zane generally competed at about 190 pounds.

In his final year, he stepped on stage at 205 pounds(he admitted ultimately that this was too heavy for him to show his best muscularity with definition).

He has been listed at about 5 feet, 9 inches, but I have trained with him recently, and I'd swear he's not above 5 feet 7 inches(given, with fairness, that one does lose heaight with age).

Anyway, it would be considered off-base to call him 'skinny'.

Mike

[Camel Jockey]

CJ-Bonds is directly linked to a lab who ran everything for him and he admitted to taking things that were roids and he failed an amphetamine test.  He has admitted to juicing just unknowingly.     Mac and Clemens have just been named by people who have gotten in trouble.  I say it again, Zane juiced and was skinny so guys needing to play definitely took something.  Speed was okay but not roids?  

Speed isn't the same as roids... Even ephedrine with caffine mimicks speed, although not quite the time frame as speed.

It doesn't matter who said what. It's quite evident Clemens juiced based on his performance with the Astros and his reincarnation with the Blue Jays. Come on dude. Your love for the guy is blinding you.

Maybe him throwing the broken bat at Piazza was due to roid rage? hahahahaha  

You think zane was skinny?  Haha you've been posting on this board too long.  Zane was small by bodybuiding proportions.  Compared to the average man (or baseball player circa 1980) he was HUGE.

I challenge anyone on this board that isn't a pro (juiced or otherwise) to show this level of muscularity

Bodybuilders train for muscles. Many baseball players just do it for recovery, and some added muscle. They don't live the methodical lifestyle of a pro bber.

[tleilaxutank]

Bodybuilders train for muscles. Many baseball players just do it for recovery, and some added muscle. They don't live the methodical lifestyle of a pro bber.

Agreed, but understand that is true of today, ca. 2007.  In the 60's, 70's and 80's, lifting was avoided as a baseball player...

[mass 04]

To be fair to Roger from 93-96 (with the exception of 95)  the Sox were pretty bad, and that could be part of the mini decline.

[dov]

they're all on the shit..ARod, Tom Brady, Lebron  ....everyone of them..any superstar in profess sports should automatically be considered "ON"

[Cap]

Excellent post.

Zane generally competed at about 190 pounds.

In his final year, he stepped on stage at 205 pounds(he admitted ultimately that this was too heavy for him to show his best muscularity with definition).

He has been listed at about 5 feet, 9 inches, but I have trained with him recently, and I'd swear he's not above 5 feet 7 inches(given, with fairness, that one does lose heaight with age).

Anyway, it would be considered off-base to call him 'skinny'.

Mike

He gives up 5 inches of height to Bonds and in his rookie year Barry was about 180.  6'1 and 180 lbs is skinny but bring him down to 5'8 or 5'7 (by your estimation) and put Barry on a BBing diet then you would see Barry outclassing Zane.  By the way I hate Bonds so I am being objective.

CJ, I don't root for Clemens or any team, aside from BoSox, he has been on.  He is a beast and I admire that but I am no die hard fan.  It seems like everyone thinks he should have won all the Cy Youngs in his career, with no slump, to seem like a legit pitcher off the sauce.  Nolan Ryan is arguably one of the best pitchers ever and I bet he had slumps here and there.  Pitching is no easy task and I can see guys having bad years and rebounding.  The same goes for hitters.  Look at Bonds post-injury.

[Camel Jockey]

Agreed, but understand that is true of today, ca. 2007.  In the 60's, 70's and 80's, lifting was avoided as a baseball player...

Of course dude. I'd be willing to be my right kidney that players like Aaron and Mays didn't juice, hence why they declined in the latter years. Guys like Bonds and Clemens were better in the latter years and bigger to boot. Any idiot could make the connection.

[tleilaxutank]

He gives up 5 inches of height to Bonds and in his rookie year Barry was about 180.  6'1 and 180 lbs is skinny but bring him down to 5'8 or 5'7 (by your estimation) and put Barry on a BBing diet then you would see Barry outclassing Zane.  By the way I hate Bonds so I am being objective.

You're crazy.  Just crazy.

[tleilaxutank]

Any idiot could make the connection.

Not all of them, apparently!

 

[Moosejay]

I just don't see why this is big news? Isn't it blantantly obvious steroid use is rampant in professional sports. TO be the best you have to make sacrifices... using performance enhancing drugs is a method to improve your performance. The general public wants to see super athletes and great performances but criticize those who use drugs to help them get results. I think people shouldn't be so judgemental when it comes to professional athletes drug use. Drugs are so rampant in American society... I dont see why sports should be any different..at least they are doing it for a purpose as opposed to recreational drug users. With that being said why doesnt our media focus on more pressing issues like providing public healthcare for those who can't afford it.. we are the only country on a list of countries with the top 10 GDp's in the world who doesnt provide public healthcare. Still there are a lot of hardworking people living at or above poverty level and are barely making ends meet...instead of helping those people improve their quality of life the government and news media wastes time on this shit...absolutely mindblowing...

There are also many young people making great livings, who do not have families or children to support, and are given choices by their employers as to if they want healthcare coverage provided to them, or more pay.

Many say, "More pay," so they are uncovered/uninsured.

This is not mentioned in media reports. They are chronicled as 'uninsured', as though they are victims.

They are not.

Furthermore, these nations who provide 'free' healthcare for their societies...remember...t hey are often taxed in avenues similar to 50% to 75% of their incomes.

Imagine the backlash you'd see here if Hillary or whomever tried to pull that sort of hullabulloo.

Oh, and yes. I am a doctor.

I gladly pay for healthcare for me and my staff.

And not crappy coverage. FULL coverage. I pay for my staff's copays. I pay for their $500 deductable if they need surgery.

Its all part of living in this great country.

I don't piss my money away on $7 lattes from Satrbucks, lunch at restaurants every afternoon, and I don't drive gas-guzzlers.

Its all choice, friends.

Most on this board should especially know that we should not always be pointing the finger of blame with healthcare issues.

Get rid of (or moderate)fast food, cigarettes, booze, drugs, lethardy/lack of exercise, and not only would we wliminate the federal health care deficit, but we'd likely have anough dough left over to give everyone in this country $100 (including liiegal aliens-not that they don't already get enough!).

Mike  

[joelocal]

I challenge anyone on this board that isn't a pro (juiced or otherwise) to show this level of muscularity

I'm still working on it

[Cap]

You're crazy.  Just crazy.

You don't think a shorter guy training to keep size will look bigger than a dude that is not?

I'm not saying that those guys early on DID juice but that they certainly could have and gone undetected.  Those old timers looked similar to a young Bonds and he (Barry) could have been on some Deca there.  All athletics post WW2 could be considered tainted with juice but this is the only era looked at and why?  Simple, Bonds.  Athletes fail doping tests every year but the government went after Bonds and all this came with it.

[tleilaxutank]

You don't think a shorter guy training to keep size will look bigger than a dude that is not?

I'm not saying that those guys early on DID juice but that they certainly could have and gone undetected. 

Ok, good to see you are coming to your senses.  Hank Aaron (and everyone he played with) did not juice.  They weren't even into strength and conditioning.  We have reached common ground.

I could give a shit about bonds.  He brought it all on himself by lying and being so indignant.  Giambi admitted to using and new york forgave him.  Baseball desperately wanted bonds to just come clean and then they could've forgive him too.  Bonds is not going to be fucked for cheating; he's going to be fucked for lying about it after the fact...

[Moosejay]

You are correct.

Bonds has been proven to be such a sour, unpleasant, angry fellow, that even the most neutral media persons would now hesitate to vote him into the Hall of Fame.

He is frowning and unhappy even when he should be happy.

This seems amazing, regarding the HOF, given his numbers.

But look at Pete Rose, who did not become recalcitrant until only recently.

Mike

[nder98]

Heads are gonna roll

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7560368?MSNHPHCP&GT1=10734

[Mclovin]

Here is an article from about 45 minutes ago where Clemens denies all charges.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/ny-sproger1214,1,360056.story?coll=cs-home-headlines