Iceland Facts

[loco]

I see you made a total fool of yourself on this thread, assuming devout 'Christian' faith on the part of Icelanders....

You always have such a loving, peaceful and friendly attitude, Trapezkerl!   

I have not made a fool of myself.  I simply shared some interesting facts about Iceland and I posted references.  It's not like I made this up.  I appreciate yours and Hedgehog's input.  But I still doubt your claim that Iceland's "society as a whole is quite atheistic".

[Deicide]

You always have such a loving, peaceful and friendly attitude, Trapezkerl!   

I have not made a fool of myself.  I simply shared some interesting facts about Iceland and I posted references.  It's not like I made this up.  I appreciate yours and Hedgehog's input.  But I still doubt your claim that Iceland's "society as a whole is quite atheistic".

The point was that those facts about societal health have absolutely zilch to do with 'their Christian faith'...that's the point and I believe that was the premise of your post, was it not?

[Hugo Chavez]

I didn't?  So I posted lies?  So the Ministry for Foreign Affairs is telling lies here?

"A whole society abandoned its ancient heathen belief and peacefully adopted the Christian faith."
http://www.iceland.is/people-and-society/Religion/

Don't be shocked that an official would tell lies.  yes this is a lie, I'm sorry to inform you, there were vicious murders committed.  I have my books on this packed away but if I remember after I get done with my move, I'll post details.  There was no big wars on this so relatively speaking it was peaceful.  But purely peaceful, no way.  There were calculated moves made that cost lives.

[loco]

Don't be shocked that an official would tell lies.  yes this is a lie, I'm sorry to inform you, there were vicious murders committed.  I have my books on this packed away but if I remember after I get done with my move, I'll post details.  There was no big wars on this so relatively speaking it was peaceful.  But purely peaceful, no way.  There were calculated moves made that cost lives.

I wouldn't be shocked, but I do look forward to your proof to back up your claims.  What makes your books so much more truthful and trustworthy than the Ministry for Foreign Affairs?  I don't mean this in a bad way.  I really do want to learn more about this.

By the way, Berserker, whether Iceland adopted the Christian faith peacefully or not has nothing to do with the point of this thread.  It's nice that they did, if they did, but if they didn't so be it.

[loco]

The point was that those facts about societal health have absolutely zilch to do with 'their Christian faith'...that's the point and I believe that was the premise of your post, was it not?

No.  I stated the point of this thread at the very beginning:
 

So much for "Religion Poisons Everything".

My point is that Iceland's religious history has done zilch to prevent or to slow down society's development.
 
You have the US where there is separation of church and state and it ranked 12th on the United Nations' Human Development.  France, if I'm not mistaken, is the most secular of the West European nations with the lowest church attendance, yet it ranked 10th.  Then there is communist Russia and Cuba where religion was once banned, and that did nothing for their society.  Today, Cuba ranks 51st and Russia ranks 67th.  Iceland on the other hand, with no separation of church and state, with freedom of religion and with a state church is the most developed society in the world, ranked 1st on the United Nations' Human Development Index.

[Hedgehog]

  
My point is that Iceland's religious history has done zilch to prevent or to slow down society's development.
 

FWIW,
the percentage of active Christians in either Russia or Cuba is probably higher than on Iceland.

JMO.

And I wouldn't say that Iceland has a more religious history than Russia, eg.

I'm sure you would agree.

Look at how powerful the Russian-Orthodox church has been through the centuries, and what power it manifested on the Russian population.

So Iceland has a highly developed democracy. Russia is lagging.

According to Putnam's theories, it doesn't depend on whether the country is religious or not.

But rather, whether there is organized social activism, eg bowling clubs, choirs, book clubs, debate teams, baseball leagues, football clubs, et al.

Things like this will strengthen the foundation for democracy.

If you look at Iceland, they have a long tradition of folk dance meets, folk music convents, and various forums where the members of the community socialize, and interact.

Looking at many African nations, there are very few areas where there is a foundation for democracy. That's why football clubs, choirs, music orchestras et al should be encouraged as well, why activities like those should receive economic aid, as well as the educational system or business system.

There has to be a foundation to build democracy on. Otherwise there is little or no chance of success.

Iraq will definitely be a failure unless we can give the Iraqi people help with building socializing forums.

[loco]

According to Putnam's theories, it doesn't depend on whether the country is religious or not.

But rather, whether there is organized social activism, eg bowling clubs, choirs, book clubs, debate teams, baseball leagues, football clubs, et al.

Things like this will strengthen the foundation for democracy.

It takes more than just socializing and bowling together.  I believe that you once agreed with me that democracy without morality does not work.  That means that we must bowl not only together, but we must bowl together with good morals.  What good is it for us to bowl together if we were to value cheating without getting caught more than winning fair and square?

Robert D. Putnam's theories are interesting and make sense, but if true, what can bring Americans together more than the church?  Many Americans attend church on Wednesday evening, Sunday morning and Sunday evening.  Add to that choir practice, orchestra practice, smaller church group Bible study, church bowling leagues and other sports activities, church weight watchers, community work, service projects for widows, orphans, the homeless, etc.  Your typical American, mid size, Christian church is a big family.  Everybody knows everybody.  They are aware of each others needs and they help one another.  If Putnam's theory is correct, then the church is a big part of what has helped America remain a democratic republic with the same constitution for over 200 years.

[Hedgehog]

It takes more than just socializing and bowling together.  I believe that you once agreed with me that democracy without morality does not work.  That means that we must bowl not only together, but we must bowl together with good morals.  What good is it for us to bowl together if we were to value cheating without getting caught more than winning fair and square?

Robert D. Putnam's theories are interesting and make sense, but if true, what can bring Americans together more than the church?  Many Americans attend church on Wednesday evening, Sunday morning and Sunday evening.  Add to that choir practice, orchestra practice, smaller church group Bible study, church bowling leagues and other sports activities, church weight watchers, community work, service projects for widows, orphans, the homeless, etc.  Your typical American, mid size, Christian church is a big family.  Everybody knows everybody.  They are aware of each others needs and they help one another.  If Putnam's theory is correct, then the church is a big part of what has helped America remain a democratic republic with the same constitution for over 200 years.

The activities within the church are what helps build the foundation for democracy.

Not the faith itself.

And why have we all these activities in the churches?

It isn't at all like that in other countries. The church is much more faith-only in Europe.

In the USA, several churches have become social clubs, where the Bible studies and the Sunday activity is less an act of worshipping God, and more of interacting with friends.

In England, there are Men's Clubs, Dinner Clubs, Rugby Clubs, Dart Clubs, et al that has the similar function.

I believe that you once agreed with me that democracy without morality does not work.  That means that we must bowl not only together, but we must bowl together with good morals.  What good is it for us to bowl together if we were to value cheating without getting caught more than winning fair and square?

Democracy depends on, among other things, social capital. The social capital between people: eg trust.

This is what makes us behave democratic, ie what you perhaps refer to as moral.

This particular social capital becomes high by the very existance of organisations that lets us socialize, activities.

[Deicide]

It's funny how most of the most secular countries in the world are ahead of the pious USA and Loco ignores that!

[loco]

It's funny how most of the most secular countries in the world are ahead of the pious USA and Loco ignores that!

I don't ignore this, Trapezkerl.  I just don't think that it has anything to do with secularism or religion.  The "pious USA" is ahead of secular United Kingdom and not far behind the most secular of all, France. 

There is more to it than just religion and secularism.  France seems to be having a lot of problems right now with the poor rioting because they are frustrated with their living conditions, even though lots of euros have been poured into the country to try to solve the problem.  When was the last time you heard of frustrated poor rioting in the US because of high unemployment, underperforming schools, and inadequate housing?

[gcb]

I don't ignore this, Trapezkerl.  I just don't think that it has anything to do with secularism or religion.  The "pious USA" is ahead of secular United Kingdom and not far behind the most secular of all, France. 

There is more to it than just religion and secularism.  France seems to be having a lot of problems right now with the poor rioting because they are frustrated with their living conditions, even though lots of euros have been poured into the country to try to solve the problem.  When was the last time you heard of frustrated poor rioting in the US because of high unemployment, underperforming schools, and inadequate housing?

Rioting aside there are more violent deaths in the US than in France. I don't know how you come by the idea that France is the most secular either.

[Deicide]

I don't ignore this, Trapezkerl.  I just don't think that it has anything to do with secularism or religion.  The "pious USA" is ahead of secular United Kingdom and not far behind the most secular of all, France. 

There is more to it than just religion and secularism.  France seems to be having a lot of problems right now with the poor rioting because they are frustrated with their living conditions, even though lots of euros have been poured into the country to try to solve the problem.  When was the last time you heard of frustrated poor rioting in the US because of high unemployment, underperforming schools, and inadequate housing?

Well, just of late in New Orleans actually...

[Straw Man]

So much for "Religion Poisons Everything".  Not saying that Icelanders owe their national success to their Christian faith, entirely, but religion certainly has not been a hurdle either and has certainly not poisoned anything there.
 
Society
Iceland is the most developed society in the world, ranked first on the United Nations' Human Development Index.
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
 
Icelanders are the second longest-living nation with a life expectancy at birth of 81.8 years.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#People
 
Iceland is a very technologically advanced society.  t
 
Education
There is virtually no adult illiteracy. Education is compulsory for children ages 6 to 16.  Icelanders have access to excellent healthcare and education.http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Iceland-EDUCATION.html
 
Economy
Economy is basically capitalistic, yet with an extensive welfare system (including generous housing subsidies), low unemployment, and remarkably even distribution of income.[/size]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ic.html#Econ

extensive welfare system, remarkably even distirbution of income, access to excellent healthcare and education

hmm.....

sounds like Utopia

[The Showstoppa]

I lived in Iceland for 1 1/2 years and it wasn't the utopia it's being out to be in this thread.  I enjoyed it, but it had one of the highest rates of suicide and alcoholism in the world.  That was according to the Icelanders who briefed us on local customs, etc...

[OzmO]

Hmmm,  i wonder if suicide rates are higher among atheists?

[Straw Man]

I lived in Iceland for 1 1/2 years and it wasn't the utopia it's being out to be in this thread.  I enjoyed it, but it had one of the highest rates of suicide and alcoholism in the world.  That was according to the Icelanders who briefed us on local customs, etc...

I knew it sounded too good to be true

according to Wiki the traditional cuisine includes cured ram scrota, singed sheep heads

If I had to eat that I might want to kill myself too

[Deicide]

I knew it sounded too good to be true

according to Wiki the traditional cuisine includes cured ram scrota, singed sheep heads

If I had to eat that I might want to kill myself too

To live in Iceland you really need to be interested in the culture, language and history; fortunately for me I was/am.

[Dos Equis]

Hmmm,  i wonder if suicide rates are higher among atheists?

Good question.  Maybe so:  http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

[Deicide]

Good question.  Maybe so:  http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

Irrelevant; even if every athiest were a raving maniac it wouldn't have the slightest bearing on the truth claims of religions.

That something is useful does not mean it is true.

[loco]

List of countries by suicide rate

The following is a List of suicide rates by country according to data from the World Health Organization in which a country's rank is determined by its total rate of suicides.

Rank   Country   Year   Males   Females   Total   
1.  Lithuania[3][4] 2005 68.1 12.9 38.6
2.  Belarus 2003 63.3 10.3 35.1
3.  Russia 2004 61.6 10.7 34.3
4.  Kazakhstan 2003 51.0 8.9 29.2
5.  Slovenia 2003 45.0 12.0 28.1
6.  Hungary 2003 44.9 12.0 27.7
7.  Guyana 2003 42.5 12.1 27.2
8.  Latvia 2004 42.9 8.5 24.3
9.  Japan 2004 35.6 12.8 24.0
10.  Ukraine 2004 43.0 7.3 23.8
11.  Sri Lanka 1996 NA NA 21.6
12.  Belgium 1997 31.2 11.4 21.1
13.  Finland 2004 31.7 9.4 20.3
14.  Estonia 2005 35.5 7.3 20.3
15.  Croatia 2004 30.2 9.8 19.6
16.  Serbia and Montenegro 2002 28.8 10.4 19.3
17.  Hong Kong SAR, China 2004 25.2 12.4 18.6
18.  Cuba 1996 24.5 12.0 18.3
19.  France 2003 27.5 9.1 18
20.  Austria 2003 27.1 9.3 17.9
21.  Republic of Korea 2002 24.7 11.2 17.9
22.  Switzerland 2004 23.7 11.3 17.4
23.  Republic of Moldova 2004 29.3 5.2 16.7
24.  Czech Republic 2004 25.9 5.7 15.5
24.  Poland 2002 26.6 5.0 15.5
26.  Romania 2002 23.9 4.7 14.1
27.  Bulgaria 2003 21.0 7.3 14.0
28.  China (selected areas) 1999 13.0 14.8 13.9
29.  Denmark 2000 20.2 7.2 13.6
30.  Germany 2001 20.4 7.0 13.5
31.  Slovakia 2002 23.6 3.6 13.3
32.  Sweden 2002 19.5 7.1 13.2
32.  Seychelles 1998 NA NA 13.2
34.  Australia 2001 20.1 5.3 12.7
34.  Ireland 2001 21.4 4.1 12.7
36.  Iceland 2001 19.6 5.6 12.6
37.  Canada 2001 18.7 5.2 11.9
37.  Mauritius 2000 18.8 5.2 11.9
37.  New Zealand 2000 19.8 4.2 11.9
37.  Suriname 1992 16.6 7.2 11.9
41.  Bosnia and Herzegovina 1991 20.3 3.3 11.8
42.  Portugal 2002 18.9 4.9 11.7
43.  Trinidad and Tobago 1994 17.4 5 11.6
44.  Norway 2004 15.8 7.3 11.5
45.  United States 2002 17.9 4.2 11.0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[Deicide]

List of countries by suicide rate

The following is a List of suicide rates by country according to data from the World Health Organization in which a country's rank is determined by its total rate of suicides.

Rank   Country   Year   Males   Females   Total   
1.  Lithuania[3][4] 2005 68.1 12.9 38.6
2.  Belarus 2003 63.3 10.3 35.1
3.  Russia 2004 61.6 10.7 34.3
4.  Kazakhstan 2003 51.0 8.9 29.2
5.  Slovenia 2003 45.0 12.0 28.1
6.  Hungary 2003 44.9 12.0 27.7
7.  Guyana 2003 42.5 12.1 27.2
8.  Latvia 2004 42.9 8.5 24.3
9.  Japan 2004 35.6 12.8 24.0
10.  Ukraine 2004 43.0 7.3 23.8
11.  Sri Lanka 1996 NA NA 21.6
12.  Belgium 1997 31.2 11.4 21.1
13.  Finland 2004 31.7 9.4 20.3
14.  Estonia 2005 35.5 7.3 20.3
15.  Croatia 2004 30.2 9.8 19.6
16.  Serbia and Montenegro 2002 28.8 10.4 19.3
17.  Hong Kong SAR, China 2004 25.2 12.4 18.6
18.  Cuba 1996 24.5 12.0 18.3
19.  France 2003 27.5 9.1 18
20.  Austria 2003 27.1 9.3 17.9
21.  Republic of Korea 2002 24.7 11.2 17.9
22.  Switzerland 2004 23.7 11.3 17.4
23.  Republic of Moldova 2004 29.3 5.2 16.7
24.  Czech Republic 2004 25.9 5.7 15.5
24.  Poland 2002 26.6 5.0 15.5
26.  Romania 2002 23.9 4.7 14.1
27.  Bulgaria 2003 21.0 7.3 14.0
28.  China (selected areas) 1999 13.0 14.8 13.9
29.  Denmark 2000 20.2 7.2 13.6
30.  Germany 2001 20.4 7.0 13.5
31.  Slovakia 2002 23.6 3.6 13.3
32.  Sweden 2002 19.5 7.1 13.2
32.  Seychelles 1998 NA NA 13.2
34.  Australia 2001 20.1 5.3 12.7
34.  Ireland 2001 21.4 4.1 12.7
36.  Iceland 2001 19.6 5.6 12.6
37.  Canada 2001 18.7 5.2 11.9
37.  Mauritius 2000 18.8 5.2 11.9
37.  New Zealand 2000 19.8 4.2 11.9
37.  Suriname 1992 16.6 7.2 11.9
41.  Bosnia and Herzegovina 1991 20.3 3.3 11.8
42.  Portugal 2002 18.9 4.9 11.7
43.  Trinidad and Tobago 1994 17.4 5 11.6
44.  Norway 2004 15.8 7.3 11.5
45.  United States 2002 17.9 4.2 11.0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

The USA makes up for it with murder:

Murders (most recent) by country:

Rank   Countries   Amount  (top to bottom)     
#1   India: 37,170   
#2   Russia: 28,904   
#3   Colombia: 26,539   
#4   South Africa: 21,995   
#5   Mexico: 13,829   
#6   United States: 12,658   
#7   Venezuela: 8,022   
#8   Thailand: 5,140   
#9   Ukraine: 4,418   
#10   Indonesia: 2,204   
#11   Poland: 2,170   
#12   France: 1,051   
#13   Belarus: 1,013   
#14   Germany: 960   
#15   Korea, South: 955   
#16   Zimbabwe: 912   
#17   Jamaica: 887   
#18   United Kingdom: 850   
#19   Zambia: 797   
#20   Italy: 746   
#21   Yemen: 697   
#22   Japan: 637   
#23   Romania: 560   
#24   Malaysia: 551   
#25   Spain: 494   
#26   Canada: 489   
#27   Papua New Guinea: 465   
#28   Kyrgyzstan: 413   
#29   Lithuania: 370   
#30   Moldova: 348   
#31   Bulgaria: 332   
#32   Australia: 302   
#33   Portugal: 247   
#34   Costa Rica: 245   
#35   Georgia: 239   
#36   Latvia: 238   
#37   Chile: 235   
#38   Azerbaijan: 226   
#39   Hungary: 205   
#40   Netherlands: 183   
#41   Czech Republic: 174   
#42   Uruguay: 154   
#43   Finland: 148   
#44   Slovakia: 143   
#45   Estonia: 143   
#46   Armenia: 127   
#47   Tunisia: 113   
#48   Saudi Arabia: 105   
#49   Greece: 81   
#50   Switzerland: 69   
#51   Denmark: 58   
#52   Norway: 49   
#53   Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 47   
#54   New Zealand: 45   
#55   Ireland: 38   
#56   Hong Kong: 38   
#57   Slovenia: 36   
#58   Mauritius: 26   
#59   Seychelles: 6   
#60   Iceland: 5   
#61   Dominica: 2   
#62   Qatar: 1   
 Total: 180,304   
 Weighted average: 2,908.1   

[Straw Man]

Good question.  Maybe so:  http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

The subjects of this study were 371 depressed inpatients from two physciatric hospitals in New York.  Among other factors, religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. 

I'm not sure if one can look at this study and draw conclusions about a healthy population

[Straw Man]

List of countries by suicide rate

The following is a List of suicide rates by country according to data from the World Health Organization in which a country's rank is determined by its total rate of suicides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

from the same Wiki link:

This list should be used with caution. Little data is available documenting suicide rates in Africa, and the Middle East. Even in countries where cause-of-death data is collected systematically, differing societal attitudes toward suicide may impact the recorded figures (e.g., misreporting a suicide as an accidental death out of deference for the bereaved). Also, due to the highly corrupt police forces in Eastern Europe, many murders are written off as suicides

[loco]

#7   Venezuela: 8,022   

Venezuela...I'm not surprised.   

[Dos Equis]

Irrelevant; even if every athiest were a raving maniac it wouldn't have the slightest bearing on the truth claims of religions.

That something is useful does not mean it is true.

Who made the claim that higher suicide rates among atheists proves "truth claims" (whatever that means) of religions? 

I think a question like this is relevant to whether a person’s faith gives them a more meaningful life, gives them a sense of purpose, and more importantly hope.