Iceland Facts

[Nordic Superman]

Wow, look how many men take their lives in comparison to women!

If you ask me, it's just because women don't have the balls to do it!

[Deicide]

Who made the claim that higher suicide rates among atheists proves "truth claims" (whatever that means) of religions? 

I think a question like this is relevant to whether a person’s faith gives them a more meaningful life, gives them a sense of purpose, and more importantly hope. 

Perhaps, but if a purpose and meaning are founded on irrational claims or worse on the preposterously untrue, would it even matter to you? I often feel the faithful don't care much about truth, so long as they feel good.

[Dos Equis]

Perhaps, but if a purpose and meaning are founded on irrational claims or worse on the preposterously untrue, would it even matter to you? I often feel the faithful don't care much about truth, so long as they feel good.

I can't speak for anyone else, so I can't answer your question as it relates to others.  For me personally, all I can say is you cannot prove or disprove faith-based claims to anyone.  All you can do is rely on your own experience and those of others. 

Who are "the faithful" and what kind of interaction do you have with them? 

[Deedee]

I don't ignore this, Trapezkerl.  I just don't think that it has anything to do with secularism or religion.  The "pious USA" is ahead of secular United Kingdom and not far behind the most secular of all, France. 

There is more to it than just religion and secularism.  France seems to be having a lot of problems right now with the poor rioting because they are frustrated with their living conditions, even though lots of euros have been poured into the country to try to solve the problem.  When was the last time you heard of frustrated poor rioting in the US because of high unemployment, underperforming schools, and inadequate housing?

The riotings in France are wholly a question of religion versus secularism, as the "rioters" you speak of are almost 100% comprised of an angry muslim community unwilling to accept, or be accepted by, a secular, mainstream culture.

[Deicide]

I can't speak for anyone else, so I can't answer your question as it relates to others.  For me personally, all I can say is you cannot prove or disprove faith-based claims to anyone.  All you can do is rely on your own experience and those of others. 

Who are "the faithful" and what kind of interaction do you have with them? 

I don't have any 'faithful' friends and I think I would find it difficult to stomach such a human relationship; we have diametrically opposed views of the world. My interaction with them comes mostly from reading their books and dealing with them online.

[Dos Equis]

I don't have any 'faithful' friends and I think I would find it difficult to stomach such a human relationship; we have diametrically opposed views of the world. My interaction with them comes mostly from reading their books and dealing with them online.

You should try interacting with "the faithful" a little more.  Might change your outlook. 

I do think your attitude is typical of many atheists.  It borders on paranoia.  Rather than be comfortable with believing in nothing, many atheists get irritated or even angry about the prevalence of religion in society or the fact someone is open about their faith. 

I interact with believers and non-believers and I can stomach relationships with all of them.   

[Straw Man]

I have lot's of friends with various religious beliefs and we get along fine.  It's interesting to me that my Christian friends are the ones who are least capable of explaining their beliefs and the multitudinous contradictions and absuridties and are also the most defensive.  I also have really good friends who are  orthodox jews and they are the most open to lively discussion.  In fact some of my best friends are orthodox jews and I will often go to their house on Saturday just to hang out and chat and sometimes their rabbi or other people from their temple will be there and we'll have some great discussions.   I also have friends who are Hindu and Muslim but we've never really discussed religion in anything more than a superficial manner.  Still we get along just fine.

[Deicide]

You should try interacting with "the faithful" a little more.  Might change your outlook. 

I do think your attitude is typical of many atheists.  It borders on paranoia.  Rather than be comfortable with believing in nothing, many atheists get irritated or even angry about the prevalence of religion in society or the fact someone is open about their faith. 

I interact with believers and non-believers and I can stomach relationships with all of them.   

Believing in nothing. How often have I heard this false claim?! I believe in many things, just not an invisible old man in the sky. The problem with religion is that people can't keep it to themselves, they HAVE to impose it on other people. Granted, not all do this but many do and this needs to be combatted.

[Dos Equis]

Believing in nothing. How often have I heard this false claim?! I believe in many things, just not an invisible old man in the sky. The problem with religion is that people can't keep it to themselves, they HAVE to impose it on other people. Granted, not all do this but many do and this needs to be combatted.

What can I say?  People of faith have lots of good news to share. 

How do you propose combating people who share their faith?  If you don't like people sharing their faith, then don't listen.  Nobody is forcing you or anyone in this country to listen to sermons, read the Bible, go to church, or listen to people they/you don't want to listen too. 

[Straw Man]

What can I say?  People of faith have lots of good news to share. 

How do you propose combating people who share their faith?  If you don't like people sharing their faith, then don't listen.  Nobody is forcing you or anyone in this country to listen to sermons, read the Bible, go to church, or listen to people they/you don't want to listen too. 

how about only share the "good news" if someone asks

even harder - realize that alot of people have their own version of "good news" ( including sects within the same fucking religion) and just chill

[Dos Equis]

how about only share the "good news" if someone asks

even harder - realize that alot of people have their own version of "good news" ( including sects within the same fucking religion) and just chill

Who cares?  If you don't like what someone is saying, don't listen.  Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to listen to their faith, go to church, etc.   

[Straw Man]

Who cares?  If you don't like what someone is saying, don't listen.  Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to listen to their faith, go to church, etc.   

bum, just responding to your question.  I'm all for free speech

How do you propose combating people who share their faith? 

I've noticed the only friends I have who feel compelled to share their faith in the form of converting me are the born again christians.  I had a girlfriend who was recently "born again" and all she could talk about was how upset she was because she couldn't convince her parents (who were devout Catholics) to get "saved".  She was literally  freaked out about it.  She was scared to death that her parents were going to hell. 

 I ONLY see that in Christians


I wish you guys/girls would share that GOOD NEWS a bit less

[Dos Equis]

bum, just responding to your question.  I'm all for free speech
I've noticed the only friends I have who feel compelled to share their faith in the form of converting me are the born again christians.  I had a girlfriend who was recently "born again" and all she could talk about was how upset she was because she couldn't convince her parents (who were devout Catholics) to get "saved".  She was literally  freaked out about it.  She was scared to death that her parents were going to hell. 

 I ONLY see that in Christians


I wish you guys/girls would share that GOOD NEWS a bit less

Again, who cares?  Don't listen.  I've known several atheists and they were similarly paranoid about anyone talking about their faith. 

[Straw Man]

Again, who cares?  Don't listen.  I've known several atheists and they were similarly paranoid about anyone talking about their faith. 

I'm not paranoid about you talking about your faith

It just seems that the evangelical, born again christians appear to have their own version of a doomsday cult going on


 

[loco]

Hmmm,  i wonder if suicide rates are higher among atheists?

Japan draws up guidelines to cut suicide rate

..."Japan has one of the highest suicide rates for industrial nations, which experts say is due partly to an absence of religious prohibitions against suicide as well as a custom of committing suicide to save loved ones from embarrassment or take responsibility for failure or disgrace."...
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUST142350

[Straw Man]

Japan draws up guidelines to cut suicide rate

..."Japan has one of the highest suicide rates for industrial nations, which experts say is due partly to an absence of religious prohibitions against suicide as well as a custom of committing suicide to save loved ones from embarrassment or take responsibility for failure or disgrace."...
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUST142350

I'd guess the cultural factors are more influential.

isn't this the same country that gave the world Kamakaze pilots and Hari Kari?

The majority of the country are Shinto or Buddhist so they're already doomed to spend the afterlife in eternal suffering courtesy of the the loving and benevolent God of Christianity

[loco]

I'd guess the cultural factors are more influential.

isn't this the same country that gave the world Kamakaze pilots and Hari Kari?

The majority of the country are Shinto or Buddhist so they're already doomed to spend the afterlife in eternal suffering courtesy of the the loving and benevolent God of Christianity

Shintoism, Buddhism, Islam, secularism and high suicide rate....guess I'm better off as a Christian since Christians are not suicidal.

[Straw Man]

Shintoism, Buddhism, Islam, secularism and high suicide rate....guess I'm better off as a Christian since Christians are not suicidal.

Christians aren't suicidal....at ALL??  Where did you find this factoid?

I guess all the people in the categories you listed  should savor their time on earth because they face an eternity of agony after death courtesy of that all loving Christian God

[loco]

Christians aren't suicidal....at ALL??  Where did you find this factoid?

I wouldn't say that, but numbers should be lower among Christians and Jews.

I'm not surprised that suicide has increased in secular nations.  The idea that the human race is nothing but a bunch for primates with absolutely no purpose in life other than to reproduce and die is very depressing and hard to live with for many.  Add to that the fact that assisted suicide in those countries tends to be legal and accepted by society, giving people easy and quick access to ending their life without first seeking help or giving it time to see if tomorrow might be a better day.

I guess all the people in the categories you listed  should savor their time on earth because they face an eternity of agony after death courtesy of that all loving Christian God

On the contrary, many human beings today enjoy a life of purpose and will also enjoy an eternity in heaven, courtesy of that all loving God who sent his Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.  Many people will come to know Jesus and spend eternity in heaven, courtesy of the many Christian missionaries who give their lives to spread the good news.

[Straw Man]

I wouldn't say that, but numbers should be lower among Christians and Jews.

should?  let me know when you get some facts. 

On the contrary, many human beings today enjoy a life of purpose and will also enjoy an eternity in heaven, courtesy of that all loving God who sent his Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.  Many people will come to know Jesus and spend eternity in heaven, courtesy of the many Christian missionaries who give their lives to spread the good news.

but, as the story goes, that very same loving God condems them to Hell if they can't get with the program

The "Good News" has no value unless you first believe the "Bad News"

[MCWAY]

The activities within the church are what helps build the foundation for democracy.

Not the faith itself.

And why have we all these activities in the churches?

It isn't at all like that in other countries. The church is much more faith-only in Europe.

In the USA, several churches have become social clubs, where the Bible studies and the Sunday activity is less an act of worshipping God, and more of interacting with friends.

In England, there are Men's Clubs, Dinner Clubs, Rugby Clubs, Dart Clubs, et al that has the similar function.

Democracy depends on, among other things, social capital. The social capital between people: eg trust.

This is what makes us behave democratic, ie what you perhaps refer to as moral.

This particular social capital becomes high by the very existance of organisations that lets us socialize, activities.

Some non-believers feel that way. To that end, in some cities, there are "humanist centers", or as I call them, "un-churches". I read this in an article online from TIME magazine (linked by AiG). Basically, some atheists feel that being a non-believer is harder, once they get a family, because"When you have kids, you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on.”

Here's the link to the article, "TIME Magazine: Sunday School for Atheists"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html

[Deedee]

I wouldn't say that, but numbers should be lower among Christians and Jews.

I'm not surprised that suicide has increased in secular nations.  The idea that the human race is nothing but a bunch for primates with absolutely no purpose in life other than to reproduce and die is very depressing and hard to live with for many.  Add to that the fact that assisted suicide in those countries tends to be legal and accepted by society, giving people easy and quick access to ending their life without first seeking help or giving it time to see if tomorrow might be a better day.

On the contrary, many human beings today enjoy a life of purpose and will also enjoy an eternity in heaven, courtesy of that all loving God who sent his Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.  Many people will come to know Jesus and spend eternity in heaven, courtesy of the many Christian missionaries who give their lives to spread the good news.

Loco, you seem like a very kind person.  I find those suicide stats interesting, but fail to see where religion is mentioned anywhere as a factor. Approx. 1500 people kill themselves in Latvia per year, 51,000 in the US., but nowhere is it stated who those people were, or why they offed themselves each year. Poland is comprised of 90% practising Christians, yet it's relatively high up there on the suicide ladder. You bolded Canada as a secular country, which it is, however the stats indicate that about 300 more people commit suicide per year than the US.  Those aren't exactly compelling numbers in favor of your argument. In fact, the difference between most of the bottom portion of those stats is kind of nominal. How do you know it isn't Dr. Phil saving those extra Americans, or the fact that the US is in general, a heavily medicated country? Also, you may not be aware of this, but suicide rates are rising in the US as well, with teenagers becoming more and more likely to do so.

Loco, the idea of heaven and hell differ between Christians and Jews. I'm interested to know why that is. Since both faiths worship the same God, shouldn't the message concerning the afterlife be the same? Not being a smart ass either.  Just would like to know.

[Deicide]

Some non-believers feel that way. To that end, in some cities, there are "humanist centers", or as I call them, "un-churches". I read this in an article online from TIME magazine (linked by AiG). Basically, some atheists feel that being a non-believer is harder, once they get a family, because"When you have kids, you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on.”

Here's the link to the article, "TIME Magazine: Sunday School for Atheists"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html

Bah, silly arguments from utility say nothing of the truth value of your silly beliefs.

[Hedgehog]

Some non-believers feel that way. To that end, in some cities, there are "humanist centers", or as I call them, "un-churches". I read this in an article online from TIME magazine (linked by AiG). Basically, some atheists feel that being a non-believer is harder, once they get a family, because"When you have kids, you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on.”

Here's the link to the article, "TIME Magazine: Sunday School for Atheists"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2c9171%2c1686828%2c00.html

That's a very valid point.

Around here, most kids are involved in various forms of sports and activities with clubs that organizes it locally.

Eg dancing, football, choir, ice hockey, floor hockey, basketball et al.

In general, social activities, for kids or adults, such as bridge nights et al aren't organized through church.

These activities aren't organized by any church, thus the Church isn't working as the same kind of social network as in USA.

[loco]

Loco, you seem like a very kind person.  I find those suicide stats interesting, but fail to see where religion is mentioned anywhere as a factor. Approx. 1500 people kill themselves in Latvia per year, 51,000 in the US., but nowhere is it stated who those people were, or why they offed themselves each year. Poland is comprised of 90% practising Christians, yet it's relatively high up there on the suicide ladder. You bolded Canada as a secular country, which it is, however the stats indicate that about 300 more people commit suicide per year than the US.  Those aren't exactly compelling numbers in favor of your argument. In fact, the difference between most of the bottom portion of those stats is kind of nominal. How do you know it isn't Dr. Phil saving those extra Americans, or the fact that the US is in general, a heavily medicated country? Also, you may not be aware of this, but suicide rates are rising in the US as well, with teenagers becoming more and more likely to do so.

Thanks, Deedee!  And Happy New Year!  I'm actually not claiming anything.  Just giving my personal opinion.  Statistics give us just numbers.  The cause and effect is up for interpretation, but we do need to do our best to find the cause and do something about it.  The suicide statistics are surprising and interesting to me.  I'm just throwing statistics out there in response to OzmO's question about atheists and suicide.  I did hear on the radio a couple of years ago that suicide rates in Switzerland are among the highest in the world, but they did not mention religion.  It was more about how money isn't everything.  Secularism in Europe contrasted with devotion to God in America is also very interesting to me and it raises many questions.

My point is mainly that the claim that religion poisons everything and that the world would be better off without God is false.