Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
October 02, 2014, 04:10:18 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!  (Read 7178 times)
~flower~
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3582


I be dead and stinkin up teh place!!


« Reply #125 on: January 05, 2008, 01:33:27 PM »


  Aggression can also be the result of neural pathway damage done by vaccines.  This can cause a dog's temperament/behavior to change. 

  To quote Dr. Jean Dodds (including typos):


  Dr. Dodds, could you comment on any connection between puppy
vaccinations  and  fear periods?

 Thank you very much, XXXX

Dear XXXX: Any "jolt" or shock" to a youngster's body ---including the
 immune system can affect neural pathways and behavior. This would be
 especiallt true of combination vaccines and esecially rabies vaccine.
 Jean



Dr. Dodds,
My question is about vaccines and the immune system shut down.

 How long is the immune system in shut down mode after a vaccination?
 Some say 10 days some say 45 days. I can't think of a person more
 qualified to answer that question than yourself.  I no longer vax my dogs, but everybody else in the neighborhood does.  So the correct information on immune system shut down would be very valuable to those that still poke.

 Thank you so much for again making yourself available to us.


Dear XXX: Both answers are correct -- the first 10-14 days is when the maximum immune reactive/suppressive effect occurs, but this can continue -- especially in dogs or cats with genetic predisposition to react adversely -- for up to 45 days. For vaccine like rabies, hoever, there's anecdotal evidence that the demyelinating effects of the rabies miasm can last several months [4-6 ] or even longer. Jean


   Maybe that is the answer why some pets seem to "snap" for no apparent reason?     

   Just another reason to take very seriously the subject of over vaccination.  Our vaccination happy ways could have caused people injuries or even their lives, not to mention the pets that may have lost theirs because they became a danger through no fault of their own.
Report to moderator   Logged
temper35
Getbig III
***
Posts: 732


« Reply #126 on: January 05, 2008, 01:37:47 PM »

I guess its possible Flower.  I never heard that but it makes sense.
Report to moderator   Logged
Vet
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1679

Immortal


« Reply #127 on: January 05, 2008, 01:47:42 PM »


  Aggression can also be the result of neural pathway damage done by vaccines.  This can cause a dog's temperament/behavior to change. 

  To quote Dr. Jean Dodds (including typos):


  Dr. Dodds, could you comment on any connection between puppy
vaccinations  and  fear periods?

 Thank you very much, XXXX

Dear XXXX: Any "jolt" or shock" to a youngster's body ---including the
 immune system can affect neural pathways and behavior. This would be
 especiallt true of combination vaccines and esecially rabies vaccine.
 Jean



Dr. Dodds,
My question is about vaccines and the immune system shut down.

 How long is the immune system in shut down mode after a vaccination?
 Some say 10 days some say 45 days. I can't think of a person more
 qualified to answer that question than yourself.  I no longer vax my dogs, but everybody else in the neighborhood does.  So the correct information on immune system shut down would be very valuable to those that still poke.

 Thank you so much for again making yourself available to us.


Dear XXX: Both answers are correct -- the first 10-14 days is when the maximum immune reactive/suppressive effect occurs, but this can continue -- especially in dogs or cats with genetic predisposition to react adversely -- for up to 45 days. For vaccine like rabies, hoever, there's anecdotal evidence that the demyelinating effects of the rabies miasm can last several months [4-6 ] or even longer. Jean


   Maybe that is the answer why some pets seem to "snap" for no apparent reason?     

   Just another reason to take very seriously the subject of over vaccination.  Our vaccination happy ways could have caused people injuries or even their lives, not to mention the pets that may have lost theirs because they became a danger through no fault of their own.


Thats from way, way out in left field if you ask me.  Way out there. 
Report to moderator   Logged
TrapsMcLats
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2801


Lift Heavy. Lift Hard.


« Reply #128 on: January 05, 2008, 02:07:00 PM »

I am not saying everything else isn't a possibility, but it is of MY opinion and many others that the fact that pit bulls are dog aggressive comes from their genes and breed standards.  i don't think its a media thing, nor do i believe its jsut a stigma attached to pit bulls.  If a dog is bred to be aggressive towards other animals, fight other animals, have an incredible amount of stamina and determination (gameness... which was also bred for when bull and bear baiting) and incredible pain tolerance... then why is it ignorant to believe that a dog has the propensity to be aggressive towards animals from birth?  We can say that this is true of any dog, if you keep a labrador unsocialized it will have a high chance of bein dog aggessive, but i don't believe the chances would be nearly as high as a pits because pits were bred to fight other dogs and animals.   It would also be unwise to assume that a pit wouldn't be dog aggessive... this time because of the social stigma attached to them.  If your pit attacks a dog, your pit would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  if your german sheperd did the same, it would not be.  This is where a social stigma is a problem.  If you are a pit owner you have to be aware of the fact that your dog can do an extreme amount of damage in a short period of time to another dog, which is why from day one you have to do everything possible to socialize your dog.  The original breed ideals of a pit bull were:

A complete lack of aggression towards humans (those that showed any aggression were destroyed)
High prey drive (used in hunting and fighting)
gameness (for the bull baiting and bear baiting, hunting and fighting)
Pain Tolerance (for everything they are usd for)
Dog aggression and animal aggression (the dogs that acted like they wanted to fight were bred with other dogs that shared this quality, a derivative of prey drive and a factor in "gameness")


It might not be the only reason for dog aggression, but it would be foolish to assume that those factors don't play a huge part in why a pit is dog aggressive.  For me, this is akin to saying that you have to teach a retriever to retrieve or a herder to herd.  

this is a great book that really goes into the detailed history and development of the breed and talks about all factors involved.  One of the best pit books i have ever read:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Terrier-Handbook-Barrons-Handbooks/dp/0764112333/ref=pd_bbs_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199555133&sr=8-6



Report to moderator   Logged
TrapsMcLats
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2801


Lift Heavy. Lift Hard.


« Reply #129 on: January 05, 2008, 02:19:57 PM »

 Is it misunderstanding of information (us misunderstanding him or him misunderstanding what he's heard/read) or is it misinformation.  

Well, i do not believe that when a puppy pit is walking around its aggressive towards other dogs.  I think i should have said that a pitbull puppy when grown up, if not socialized properly, will have an extremely high chance of being dog aggressive even if it is otherwise raised 100% correctly; loving owner, discipline, training, diet, housing etc...  That is where i think genes play a large part and nothing else.  My mistake is speaking in generalizations rather than citing exact situations and circumstances.
Report to moderator   Logged
Vet
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1679

Immortal


« Reply #130 on: January 05, 2008, 02:24:25 PM »

Well, i do not believe that when a puppy pit is walking around its aggressive towards other dogs.  I think i should have said that a pitbull puppy when grown up, if not socialized properly, will have an extremely high chance of being dog aggressive even if it is otherwise raised 100% correctly; loving owner, discipline, training, diet, housing etc...  That is where i think genes play a large part and nothing else.  My mistake is speaking in generalizations rather than citing exact situations and circumstances.

Thats why i said understand where you are coming from, not immediately jump your shit. 



Heres how I see pitbulls, and in my mind, its a much more appropriate way because it doesn't allow some of the generalizations that seem to always happen....  I see them as a physical breed.  This means high energy, high need for physical activity, be it rough play, be it running with the owner or on a treadmill or something else.  They have been selected to be physical. 

Now take that and channel it in the wrong direction and you very well may see problems.



Does that make sense? . 
Report to moderator   Logged
TrapsMcLats
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2801


Lift Heavy. Lift Hard.


« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2008, 02:30:43 PM »

Thats why i said understand where you are coming from, not immediately jump your shit. 



Heres how I see pitbulls, and in my mind, its a much more appropriate way because it doesn't allow some of the generalizations that seem to always happen....  I see them as a physical breed.  This means high energy, high need for physical activity, be it rough play, be it running with the owner or on a treadmill or something else.  They have been selected to be physical. 

Now take that and channel it in the wrong direction and you very well may see problems.



Does that make sense? . 

That makes perfect sense and takes into account their genes and environment (owners, training etc).  As long as you see where i am coming from as opposed to ripping me for being "ignorant" like some people...  Everyone is entitled to their belief system, but i think that if you own a pit bull, you have to know their breeding background and you cant just assume your dog or a certain dog will be the exception.
Report to moderator   Logged
~flower~
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3582


I be dead and stinkin up teh place!!


« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2008, 05:01:08 PM »

Thats from way, way out in left field if you ask me.  Way out there. 


 If you want to totally discount the research that Dr. Dodds and Schultz have done in that field, EXPERTS in that field, RESPECTED experts, be my guest.   I am not saying every behavior problem is related to vaccines, but to totally discount the connection when a person has a dog that has a definite behavior or temperament change and vaccines were the only thing that had been introduced is sticking your head in the sand.

  And no offense, but you are not exactly that knowledgeable in that field, you thought that the parvo vaccine didn't shed into the environment making it possible for animals to get "vaccinated" by interacting with recently vaccinated animals or their feces and you were wrong on that. 

  You might want to rethink that "way, way out there" and see what is going on in scientific research.
Report to moderator   Logged
temper35
Getbig III
***
Posts: 732


« Reply #133 on: January 05, 2008, 05:41:17 PM »


 If you want to totally discount the research that Dr. Dodds and Schultz have done in that field, EXPERTS in that field, RESPECTED experts, be my guest.   I am not saying every behavior problem is related to vaccines, but to totally discount the connection when a person has a dog that has a definite behavior or temperament change and vaccines were the only thing that had been introduced is sticking your head in the sand.

  And no offense, but you are not exactly that knowledgeable in that field, you thought that the parvo vaccine didn't shed into the environment making it possible for animals to get "vaccinated" by interacting with recently vaccinated animals or their feces and you were wrong on that. 

  You might want to rethink that "way, way out there" and see what is going on in scientific research.


All hail flower.....

MaStEr Of tHE UniVeRSe

Report to moderator   Logged
knny187
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 21926



« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2008, 07:15:38 PM »

Wow...reading through this stuff can give someone a headache.

Here's a couple things I know from all the dogs I've ever had.

One...dogs are breed for temperament.  Period.  No one (at least a reputable & smart breeder) will not ruin the line to breed with poor genes & poor temperament to make money.

Two...some are bred for a certain aspect.  Example....Labradors are bred for hunting.  Not only do they have excellent sniffers....most have the natural instinct of retrieving & tracking animals.  Almost all I've ever had or seen....love the water & are excellent swimmers for water fowl hunting which make them extremely versatile hunting partners.  I love our Rottie to death...but he hates the water & could care a less about sniffing down a rabbits path that's 1 hour old.  Granted....I have never shown him the way of sniffing down a Rabbit....but almost all Labs I've ever had....I've never had to show them.  It's a natural instinct.  Honestly, I don't know what our Rottie's natural instinct is except to be goofy, play, & show affection.  All personalities in dogs are different from breed to breed, from litter to litter, from owner to owner.

Third.....all of the dogs I've ever had are all DIFFERENT & have different personalities.  At one time I had 4 Labs growing up.  My one (Sam) for a lab was very protective & not friendly to other people.  Doesn't sound like breed standards to me....but she sure could hunt.  One thing that is the same with all dogs that I've ever had is "ME".  I strongly believe that just like kids.....dogs are different because how they are raised.  What they are allowed to get away with....how they are rewarded....how they are integrated in the household....what position they hold in the house..etc..   Show me a demanding, dominating, spoiled child....& I'll show a problem waiting to happen.

I believe all dogs can be aggressive.  Some may be more prone especially with the name "Terrier" attached to the breed.  But a 20 pound Rat Terrier grabbing ahold of your leg is not going to make the news like a 120 pound Rottie because of the damage thats going to be inflicted. 

I think everyone is making valid points....just respect others opinions & disagree without the name calling.



Report to moderator   Logged
temper35
Getbig III
***
Posts: 732


« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2008, 08:29:07 PM »

Diego doesn't like the water?  Plato loves the water, weird.  Like even the rain and stuff?  And I totally agree that most Rottie's I have seen are frigging goofballs.  When Plato wants attention sometimes he will roll completely over on his back, like spread eagle and stare at me until I laugh.  It is amazing.
Report to moderator   Logged
Vet
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1679

Immortal


« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2008, 10:45:29 PM »


 If you want to totally discount the research that Dr. Dodds and Schultz have done in that field, EXPERTS in that field, RESPECTED experts, be my guest.   I am not saying every behavior problem is related to vaccines, but to totally discount the connection when a person has a dog that has a definite behavior or temperament change and vaccines were the only thing that had been introduced is sticking your head in the sand.

  And no offense, but you are not exactly that knowledgeable in that field, you thought that the parvo vaccine didn't shed into the environment making it possible for animals to get "vaccinated" by interacting with recently vaccinated animals or their feces and you were wrong on that. 

  You might want to rethink that "way, way out there" and see what is going on in scientific research.



You know Flower, I think you do post useful information in that it makes people think, but I also think some of what you post is pure bullshit clouded by your agenda against medicine. 

For your vaccination affecting behavior ideas----I've worked with more than one bite case problem dog in Missouri when I worked with animal control and in NYC where i did low budget vet care out of pet stores as a side job all over the New York City metropolitan area.  In that job I dealt with way more than I care to recall dogs who were being vaccinated on an "emergency" basis because the dog had bitten someone and the owner was trying to avoid a fine.  I know without a doubt that they had never once encountered a vaccination before I saw them and some of them were pretty damned aggressive.  Why was that?  They sure as hell didn't have an evil vaccine eating away at their brains.  They'd never been exposed to one.   

Physiologically, demylination will cause extracerebral signs initially then more central signs.  Think about the structure of the CNS.  A prime example of this in humans is MS--which causes demylenation.  Humans do not experience behavior changes other than fatigue until they have significantly advanced disease, and those that do, often have behavioral changes secondary to loss of function--ie depression, anxiety, etc.  I find it very, very hard to believe that if the vaccination has this universal effect on nerves you will not have concurrent neurological signs.  Thats why i said it was from far out in left field.  Where are the neurological signs/loss of function/loss of cognition? 

I'm not trying to discredit Dr. Dodds.  That said, she herself recommends vaccinating dogs.  I did some reading after our initial vaccine discussion and what I've learned is that there are many, many people with person agendas who are warping what she says. 

Below is a link to a website with her actual protocol:  http://www.doglogic.com/Dr.Dodd-VaccineSchedule2005.doc   I tried to paste it here, but I couldn't get it to work.  I also found her recommendations for other vaccinations which were:

Quote
I use only killed 3 year rabies vaccine for adults and give it separated from other vaccines by 3-4 weeks. In some states, they may be able to give titer test result in lieu of booster.

I do NOT use Bordetella, corona virus, leptospirosis or Lyme vaccines unless these diseases are endemic in the local area or a specific kennel. Futhermore, the currently licensed leptospira bacterins do not contain the serovars causing the majority of clinical leptospirosis today.

I do NOT recommend vaccinating bitches during estrus, pregnancy or lactation

Its pretty damned funny to me how warped these words are in some minds on the internet---even yours Flower.  Dodds is not saying "DO NOT VACCINATE".  She says vaccinate based on risk assessment and then measure titers as indicated and if titers indicate, revaccinate.  Look back at that thread from last spring when you tried to jump on my ass about vaccinations.  I think I said pretty much the same thing back then:  Vaccinate based on risk assessment. 

As far as the parvo vaccine, I'm still waiting for you to produce scientific proof of virulent (meaning they are capable of causing disease in other animals) viral particles shedding.  I haven't seen any as of yet.  There has been identification of vaccine, deactivated virus in very small numbers immediately after administration of some vaccinations, but nothing I'm aware of that says the virulent---meaning capable of causing disease---is being shed.   As a matter of fact, the text often quoted on the antivaccine sites is Greene's Infectious Disease, which states:
Quote
[parvo viral] shedding following natural infection lasts a maximum of 7 to 10 days. Because the vaccine is just an attenuated virus, shedding post vaccination is assumed to be the same.
  Everything else is anecdotal conjecture.  If you can produce scientific proof, then please do. 
Report to moderator   Logged
~flower~
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3582


I be dead and stinkin up teh place!!


« Reply #137 on: January 06, 2008, 07:16:25 AM »

Let's see Vet, I NEVER said, and in fact made a point of saying that I didn't believe every aggression or behavior problem was a result of vaccines, but that it should be thrown into the possibilities when looking into why a dog "snaps" or suddenly changes behavior.  Over vaccinating may certainly be a cause or something to consider with the dog, even if it is only considered that a person doesn't further vaccinate a dog with issues in hopes to not exacerbate the problem.   

 Nor did I say Dodds said not to vaccinate, nor did I say not to vaccinate, I said OVERVACCINATING: 

Quote
Just another reason to take very seriously the subject of over vaccination.

And I never said that the parvo vaccinations shed disease into the environment but that they are capable of VACCINATING animals that come into contact with the vaccine shedding dog or feces. 

You have a lot of anecdotal opinions on topics, please don't twist or exaggerate what I said to fit your agenda.   I found a couple psychological (human) references in studies and articles with demylination and behavior changes in people. It really is not that far out there, especially if you consider that just like with people, some dogs may have more of a reaction to vaccines than others. Again, it IS something to consider.


This really was a fine example of you twisting words and you yourself using anecdotal opinion, not to mention pretty irrelevant to what I DID say (not what you portrayed me as saying)!! LOL    Grin:

Quote
I know without a doubt that they had never once encountered a vaccination before I saw them and some of them were pretty damned aggressive.  Why was that?  They sure as hell didn't have an evil vaccine eating away at their brains.  They'd never been exposed to one.
   


  Again, I will trust Dodds and Schultz who have worked for years in this field, hands on, and are respected, and who also are donating their time for at least the next 5 years to the Rabies Vaccine Challenge, over your narrow minded thinking. You can not say that they don't have a clue can you?  Why would they volunteer that undertaking in the hopes of getting the 3year rabies vaccination pushed out to a longer period if they did not think that their was an important reason too?   Why not just leave it at the 3years if vaccines are so harmless?  It used to be every year, so three years was a definite improvement, must be all that anecdotal stuff they have come across in all their years in research, huh?  Roll Eyes   Maybe you should take some time when you get a chance, and look at what is going on in the veterinary world.  A lot of respected people are devoting a lot of time and energy to all this "anecdotal" stuff. 


Copied from a post of mine in reply to you on the Vaccine thread:

Occurrence of severe gastroenteritis in pups after canine parvovirus vaccine administration: A clinical and laboratory diagnostic dilemma

Nicola DecaroCorresponding Author Contact Information, a, E-mail The Corresponding Author, Costantina Desarioa, Gabriella Eliaa, Marco Campoloa, Alessio Lorussoa, Viviana Maria, Vito Martellaa and Canio Buonavogliaa
aDepartment of Animal Health and Well-being, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine of Bari, Strada per Casamassima Km 3, 70010 Valenzano, Bari, Italy
Received 10 August 2006;  revised 22 September 2006;  accepted 12 October 2006.  Available online 25 October 2006.

Abstract

A total of 29 faecal samples collected from dogs with diarrhoea following canine parvovirus (CPV) vaccination were tested by minor groove binder (MGB) probe assays for discrimination between CPV vaccine and field strains and by diagnostic tests for detection of other canine pathogens. Fifteen samples tested positive only for CPV field strains; however, both vaccine and field strains were detected in three samples. Eleven samples were found to contain only the vaccine strain, although eight of them tested positive for other pathogens of dogs. Only three samples were found to contain the vaccine strain without evidence of canine pathogens. The present study confirms that most cases of parvovirus-like disease occurring shortly after vaccination are related to infection with field strains of canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2) rather than to reversion to virulence of the modified live virus contained in the vaccine.


  This abstract appears to confirm shedding, along with your theory that the vaccinated parvo puppy did not get it from the vaccine, but was more susceptible to it because he was recently vaccinated.
 
  From Dr. Dodds:
  From The Immune System and Disease Resistance, a paper by DR W Jean Dodds, DVM

" A recent examination of the risks posed by MLV vaccines concluded that they are intrinsically more hazardous than inactivated products. The residual virulence and environmental contamination resulting from the shedding of vaccine virus is a serious concern."
-------   
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1648&articleid=962

 Shedding of vaccine agent

Vaccine virus may be found in the nasal secretions of dogs vaccinated intranasally. In addition, vaccine parvovirus is shed in the feces of vaccinated dogs, canine adenovirus-1 can be shed in the urine, and canine adenovirus-2 can be found in nasal secretions. These viruses are the vaccine forms of the virus; they do NOT revert back to the disease-causing strains.
---------
The Cornell Feline Health Center
College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University
& The American Association of Feline Practitioners
and the Academy of Feline Medicine Advisory Panel on Feline Vaccines

A second type of vaccine is the modified live-virus (MLV) vaccine (also referred to as an attenuated vaccine), which contains viruses that have been altered by various techniques, so that they no longer produce clinical disease. Viruses in these vaccines can replicate within the host and stimulate a rapid and excellent immune response. In some cases, vaccine virus may be shed from the vaccinated cat to infect other cats that may come in contact with the vaccinated cat. MLV vaccines should not be administered to pregnant cats.
Report to moderator   Logged
temper35
Getbig III
***
Posts: 732


« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2008, 11:10:10 AM »

LOL!!!!!!!!   Grin
Report to moderator   Logged
Vet
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1679

Immortal


« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2008, 12:36:26 PM »

Let's see Vet, I NEVER said, and in fact made a point of saying that I didn't believe every aggression or behavior problem was a result of vaccines, but that it should be thrown into the possibilities when looking into why a dog "snaps" or suddenly changes behavior.  Over vaccinating may certainly be a cause or something to consider with the dog, even if it is only considered that a person doesn't further vaccinate a dog with issues in hopes to not exacerbate the problem.   

 Nor did I say Dodds said not to vaccinate, nor did I say not to vaccinate, I said OVERVACCINATING: 

No you didn't.  You jump in against every vaccination (and commercial dog food) every chance you get.  And then when you are called on it, you back a way real quick and try to claim that isn't what you said.  We've had this almost exact same argument before.  You are repeating yourself.  Thats were I get that you have an agenda.  You remind me of a control freak fundamentalist Christian (or Muslim, either or) who is convinced the entire world is going to hell unless they practice their religion the exact way you say they have to.  

Quote
And I never said that the parvo vaccinations shed disease into the environment but that they are capable of VACCINATING animals that come into contact with the vaccine shedding dog or feces. 

Bullshit.  If the virus shed into the environment is capable of VACCINATING an animal, then it has to be capable of INFECTING that animal.  Again, we've argued about this before.  Stop and think about Parvo for a minute.  If you have an animal which recieves a parvo vaccine via injection----remember the normal viral pathway is fecal-oral, meaning that they have to EAT viral particles which then populate the intestine the following has to happen:  
1: these vaccine associated viral particles have to move to the intestine through the blood stream
2: they have to cross from the blood vessels into he mucosal lining of the intestine (getting past mucosal immune defense mechanisms--which wil work both ways)
3: once in the intestine, they populate the villi of the intestinal lining
4: they must reproduce
5: they must be shed out of the intestine in the feces
6: a dog has to come into contact with viral particles and ingest them Orally

Now for this VACCINATION claim you are making to happen.  

7: once ingested the viral particles have to set up shop in the intestinal villi.
8: they must reproduce
9: they must get past intestinal defense mechanisms
10: they create a viremic state in the newly infected animal, where they will affect other parts of the immune system
11: this dog now has have an appropriate immune response to fight off the INFECTION----they've got a virus that is in their body reproducing, causing an immune response.  Thats an infection.  There is no two ways about it.  

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think its impossible, but its a multistep process that to me seems a bit far fetched.  What you are spouting doesn't seem to me to take into any consideration the physiology of the virus interaction with the animal. Its as if there is this magical happening when a dog looks at another dog who's been vaccinated. its not, its a multistep process.  


Quote
You have a lot of anecdotal opinions on topics, please don't twist or exaggerate what I said to fit your agenda.   I found a couple psychological (human) references in studies and articles with demylination and behavior changes in people. It really is not that far out there, especially if you consider that just like with people, some dogs may have more of a reaction to vaccines than others. Again, it IS something to consider.[/color]

This really was a fine example of you twisting words and you yourself using anecdotal opinion, not to mention pretty irrelevant to what I DID say (not what you portrayed me as saying)!! LOL    Grin:

I did?  Where are your references if you found them?  Like I said before, MS is probably the most well known demylenation disease of humans.  They do have psychological changes, but it occurs after loss of peripheral nerve function---and like i said, often occurs secondarily as loss of function.  You need to consider the function of myelin---which i am beginning to think you don't have a clue as to what it does.   Myelin acts as an "insulation" for nerve fibers.  Nerves as they demylinate, will conduct impulses slower, but they will still conduct impulses.  As the disease causing demylination advances, it will cause loss of peripheral function first----because these distant nerves have the furthest to conduct and thus are most likely to be disrupted.  Central function loss from demylination is a later occurance.  If you have a dog with a significant demylination disease process, I doubt it seriously if you'd see loss of central function---ie a major change in behavior, without seeing loss of peripheral sensation---ie toe dragging, ataxia, loss of pain sensation during a physical exam, etc.  It just doesn't make sense to phsyiologically.  
   


Quote
  Again, I will trust Dodds and Schultz who have worked for years in this field, hands on, and are respected, and who also are donating their time for at least the next 5 years to the Rabies Vaccine Challenge, over your narrow minded thinking. You can not say that they don't have a clue can you?  Why would they volunteer that undertaking in the hopes of getting the 3year rabies vaccination pushed out to a longer period if they did not think that their was an important reason too?   Why not just leave it at the 3years if vaccines are so harmless?  It used to be every year, so three years was a definite improvement, must be all that anecdotal stuff they have come across in all their years in research, huh?  Roll Eyes   Maybe you should take some time when you get a chance, and look at what is going on in the veterinary world.  A lot of respected people are devoting a lot of time and energy to all this "anecdotal" stuff. 
 

Honey, you make the mistake in that I really care what you think.  Like I said before, you are a good member for this board in my opinion because you make people think.  I personally don't like your overwhelm with poor references to prove your point game that you play.  No where have I said Dodds wasn't doing research that didn't need to be done.  I think what she is doing is a very, very good idea.  The thing is you can't just randomly take the information as gospel---and I'm willing to bet Dr. Dodds will agree with this---because what is being done right now is the investigative stage.  There is only anecdotal information.  Scientific studies must be done to prove her IDEAS correct.  There is no definitive proof just yet.  


Quote
Copied from a post of mine in reply to you on the Vaccine thread:

Occurrence of severe gastroenteritis in pups after canine parvovirus vaccine administration: A clinical and laboratory diagnostic dilemma

Nicola DecaroCorresponding Author Contact Information, a, E-mail The Corresponding Author, Costantina Desarioa, Gabriella Eliaa, Marco Campoloa, Alessio Lorussoa, Viviana Maria, Vito Martellaa and Canio Buonavogliaa
aDepartment of Animal Health and Well-being, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine of Bari, Strada per Casamassima Km 3, 70010 Valenzano, Bari, Italy
Received 10 August 2006;  revised 22 September 2006;  accepted 12 October 2006.  Available online 25 October 2006.

Abstract

A total of 29 faecal samples collected from dogs with diarrhoea following canine parvovirus (CPV) vaccination were tested by minor groove binder (MGB) probe assays for discrimination between CPV vaccine and field strains and by diagnostic tests for detection of other canine pathogens. Fifteen samples tested positive only for CPV field strains; however, both vaccine and field strains were detected in three samples. Eleven samples were found to contain only the vaccine strain, although eight of them tested positive for other pathogens of dogs. Only three samples were found to contain the vaccine strain without evidence of canine pathogens. The present study confirms that most cases of parvovirus-like disease occurring shortly after vaccination are related to infection with field strains of canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2) rather than to reversion to virulence of the modified live virus contained in the vaccine.

  This abstract appears to confirm shedding, along with your theory that the vaccinated parvo puppy did not get it from the vaccine, but was more susceptible to it because he was recently vaccinated.
 


the study confirms what I bolded.  


Quote
  From Dr. Dodds:
  From The Immune System and Disease Resistance, a paper by DR W Jean Dodds, DVM

" A recent examination of the risks posed by MLV vaccines concluded that they are intrinsically more hazardous than inactivated products. The residual virulence and environmental contamination resulting from the shedding of vaccine virus is a serious concern."
-------   
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1648&articleid=962

You know whats damned funny?  I cannot find this paper.  In what journal was it published?


Quote
Shedding of vaccine agent

Vaccine virus may be found in the nasal secretions of dogs vaccinated intranasally. In addition, vaccine parvovirus is shed in the feces of vaccinated dogs, canine adenovirus-1 can be shed in the urine, and canine adenovirus-2 can be found in nasal secretions. These viruses are the vaccine forms of the virus; they do NOT revert back to the disease-causing strains.
---------

Again, its not a virulent strain.  This means it will not cause disease in another animal.   Thank you, you've contradicted what you were saying about vaccine associated viral shedding being capable of vaccinating other animals with your own post.  


Quote
The Cornell Feline Health Center
College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University
& The American Association of Feline Practitioners
and the Academy of Feline Medicine Advisory Panel on Feline Vaccines

A second type of vaccine is the modified live-virus (MLV) vaccine (also referred to as an attenuated vaccine), which contains viruses that have been altered by various techniques, so that they no longer produce clinical disease. Viruses in these vaccines can replicate within the host and stimulate a rapid and excellent immune response. In some cases, vaccine virus may be shed from the vaccinated cat to infect other cats that may come in contact with the vaccinated cat. MLV vaccines should not be administered to pregnant cats.


I'd like it if you'd post this entire newsletter article.  I looked on Cornell's website and was unable to find it.  Thanks.  
Report to moderator   Logged
temper35
Getbig III
***
Posts: 732


« Reply #140 on: January 06, 2008, 01:49:07 PM »

No you didn't.  You jump in against every vaccination (and commercial dog food) every chance you get.  And then when you are called on it, you back a way real quick and try to claim that isn't what you said.  We've had this almost exact same argument before.  You are repeating yourself.  Thats were I get that you have an agenda.  You remind me of a control freak fundamentalist Christian (or Muslim, either or) who is convinced the entire world is going to hell unless they practice their religion the exact way you say they have to. 

You just summed up Flower in a paragraph.

I wonder if she is related to someone with the last name Newkirk because she totally has that kind of attitude, of one of "those people".  That die hard, blind enthusiasm.

I picture Flower's dogs like the animals from the movie Madagascar.  They want to escape to the wild!!
Report to moderator   Logged
~flower~
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3582


I be dead and stinkin up teh place!!


« Reply #141 on: January 06, 2008, 02:19:13 PM »

Boy Vet, you really do have some personal issues.   I really don't see what is the problem with saying, "over vaccinating can cause behavior issues and is one more thing to consider".    Roll Eyes   

  Point out to me where in this thread I said anything about not vaccinating. I  said over vaccinating, can you see the difference?   

  I guess Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz with there combined years of experience and knowledge must seriously believe that their is something to vaccines causing problems to be doing the rabies challenge study, maybe you should contact them and tell them to get off the "anecdotal" band wagon.    Grin

  What's funny is if you didn't care what I think you either would not have replied in the first place or said something like "that may be true, but I believe that it is more the environment that shapes the animals behavior"  or something like that.  Instead you made up stuff that I said.  Why?  Why so upset?   Undecided

  You should look at why you have an issue.   Undecided

  Maybe you have rabies?  Considering your profession you are probably high risk?  When was your last vac for rabies?  You should think about getting one every 3 years or closer together since it won't hurt you and could only help you.

     Cheesy

 



  Those lying bastards Schultz and Dodds are using anecdotal evidence to solicit funds for the Rabies Challenge fund!!  Go get them Vet!!  Get there licenses revoked for saying that blatant lying information! Angry

Adverse reactions such autoimmune diseases affecting the thyroid, joints,
blood, eyes, skin, kidney, liver, bowel and central nervous system; anaphylactic shock; aggression;seizures; epilepsy; and fibrosarcomas at injection sites are linked to rabies vaccinations.

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/files/RCF%20STUDIES%20STARTED%20Press%20Release.pdf



  edit:  may be of interest to some   Cool:

 http://books.google.com/books?id=DA4NFI-kBgAC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=behavior+over+vaccinating+dog&source=web&ots=E-jM1BajWg&sig=8kM6x2qJwfwYd8_8qmgqAQCFmqs#PPA309,M1
Report to moderator   Logged
~flower~
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3582


I be dead and stinkin up teh place!!


« Reply #142 on: January 06, 2008, 02:22:18 PM »


LOL @ temper   Grin
Report to moderator   Logged
knny187
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 21926



« Reply #143 on: January 06, 2008, 03:25:50 PM »

Diego doesn't like the water?  Plato loves the water, weird.  Like even the rain and stuff?  And I totally agree that most Rottie's I have seen are frigging goofballs.  When Plato wants attention sometimes he will roll completely over on his back, like spread eagle and stare at me until I laugh.  It is amazing.

In the hot summer...he likes his kiddy pool.....otherwise no....he hates the rain.  He really does not like his feet getting wet & will be tippy toes in the grass.
Report to moderator   Logged
Vet
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1679

Immortal


« Reply #144 on: January 06, 2008, 05:03:44 PM »

Boy Vet, you really do have some personal issues.   I really don't see what is the problem with saying, "over vaccinating can cause behavior issues and is one more thing to consider".    Roll Eyes   

  Point out to me where in this thread I said anything about not vaccinating. I  said over vaccinating, can you see the difference?   

  I guess Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz with there combined years of experience and knowledge must seriously believe that their is something to vaccines causing problems to be doing the rabies challenge study, maybe you should contact them and tell them to get off the "anecdotal" band wagon.    Grin

  What's funny is if you didn't care what I think you either would not have replied in the first place or said something like "that may be true, but I believe that it is more the environment that shapes the animals behavior"  or something like that.  Instead you made up stuff that I said.  Why?  Why so upset?   Undecided

  You should look at why you have an issue.   Undecided

  Maybe you have rabies?  Considering your profession you are probably high risk?  When was your last vac for rabies?  You should think about getting one every 3 years or closer together since it won't hurt you and could only help you.

     Cheesy

 



  Those lying bastards Schultz and Dodds are using anecdotal evidence to solicit funds for the Rabies Challenge fund!!  Go get them Vet!!  Get there licenses revoked for saying that blatant lying information! Angry

Adverse reactions such autoimmune diseases affecting the thyroid, joints,
blood, eyes, skin, kidney, liver, bowel and central nervous system; anaphylactic shock; aggression;seizures; epilepsy; and fibrosarcomas at injection sites are linked to rabies vaccinations.

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/files/RCF%20STUDIES%20STARTED%20Press%20Release.pdf



  edit:  may be of interest to some   Cool:

 http://books.google.com/books?id=DA4NFI-kBgAC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=behavior+over+vaccinating+dog&source=web&ots=E-jM1BajWg&sig=8kM6x2qJwfwYd8_8qmgqAQCFmqs#PPA309,M1

You know what Flower, I'm through with you after that post above.  I've tried to keep a scientific basis to the discussion in an effort to educate other members of this board by trying to explain my understanding of the physiology involved and now, that I've proved you wrong, you are resorting to childish insults.   You have crossed over into the land of overzealous idiot as far as I'm concerned.  I've tried to address your discussions for months now and all you do is argue, argue, argue.  Its now boiled down to me demeaning your precious Dr. Dodds----who I've said I AGREE WITH on the overvaccination issue.  Yet thats not your agenda, so you are going to keep posting.  I'm an evil veterinarian.  I can't possibly agree with the brilliant wonderful Dr. Dodds---WHO IS ALSO A VETERINARIAN.  Keep arguing, because at some point, you know you are going to out argue the person you are arguing with or they are going to get tired of your shit.    I responded in the first place because I thought it was appropriate to respond.  I also addressed your concerns again, because I don't want the misinformation you are spouting to be taken as gospel becuase IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN.  Dr. Dodds even says this much.  Not only that, I fully expect you to post with a swollen head how you've now "proven me wrong".   Just so you know, you come across as such a nutjob at times with this stuff, any person with half a bit of logical reasoning ability would completely blow off what you are trying to say.  Maybe consider taking a step back and look at what and how you post it, you'll be more effective at delivering your message.   I don't have the time or the energy to reargue stuff like this.  Its just not worth it to me. 
Report to moderator   Logged
Vet
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1679

Immortal


« Reply #145 on: January 06, 2008, 05:09:12 PM »

You just summed up Flower in a paragraph.

I wonder if she is related to someone with the last name Newkirk because she totally has that kind of attitude, of one of "those people".  That die hard, blind enthusiasm.

I picture Flower's dogs like the animals from the movie Madagascar.  They want to escape to the wild!!

I've said this before and I'll say it again.   I'd fire her in a heartbeat if I was in private practice still and she tried to be a client in any hospital where I worked.   She is the most dangerous type of person because she has internet access and can cut and paste stuff.  She takes up too much time for me to be productive to my other clients with this repitition of topics over and over and over.  Not only that, I fully picture her having a first class comeapart in the waiting room because my receptionist or technician reminds her that her dogs are due for their vaccinations or worse yet, if one of her dogs would happen to test positive for heartworms.   It'd be totally unfair to all of my other clients considering the amount of time it'd take to deal with that crap.  They don't deserve getting the short end of the stick. 
Report to moderator   Logged
~flower~
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3582


I be dead and stinkin up teh place!!


« Reply #146 on: January 06, 2008, 05:16:29 PM »

LOL!!  All that from just tossing out an overvaccination view/possiblity/consideration  (note the word OVER there, it was there for a reason you zealot) on aggression/behavior.  Nothing elaborate or preaching, just something else to consider.  Way to take the ball and run with it vet!   LOL!!   Grin     

  Calm down, all you have done is make me post respectable sources that also see a connection to the issue I raised.  You are a dangerous vet if you ignore your respected peers and say stuff like "that is way way out there" and "show me 100% scientific proof".   It is one thing to say you think connections are overinflated or something, but you basically DISCOUNT everything.   You say you see an overvaccination issue, yet then say "show me 100% proof".  Which is it?   Considering you have said every connection is pretty much false, exactly how do you see an over vaccination issue?   Undecided

  Show the proof on your anecdotal evidence that you spout on dog attacks "there has to be something else to the story".   Roll Eyes  You don't have scientific proof, yet for someone to use that argument against some things you have said would be idiotic and narrow minded.   Too bad you can't seem to give the same credence to your peers and for the health benefit of your clients. 

 Nice try on the "my precious Dr. Dodds"  Roll Eyes   if you had any sense you would realize that I mentioned her and Schultz because they are respected and very knowledgeable and have said the same things I have said.  That is to give weight or validity to what I have said and to point out that you are a close minded person.    Smiley

 


         
Report to moderator   Logged
Vet
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1679

Immortal


« Reply #147 on: January 06, 2008, 05:42:27 PM »

LOL!!  All that from just tossing out an overvaccination view/possiblity/consideration on aggression/behavior.

  Calm down, all you have done is make me post respectable sources that also see a connection to the issue I raised.  You are a dangerous vet if you ignore your respected peers and say stuff like "that is way way out there" and "show me 100% scientific proof".   It is one thing to say you think connections are overinflated or something, but you basically DISCOUNT everything.   

  Show the proof on your anecdotal evidence that you spout on dog attacks "there has to be something else to the story".   Roll Eyes  You don't have scientific proof, yet for someone to use that argument against some things you have said would be idiotic and narrow minded.   Too bad you can't seem to give the same credence to your peers.

 


         

No flower, I've questioned your internet sources.  They are quotes of respectable individuals, but like I said in the other post, I can't find half of what you are posting---including the article by Dr. Dodds and the Cornell Newsletter.   Your favorite sources are antivaccination, antiheartworm, antiprocessed food sources.  These obviously have a bias and are warping/misunderstanding what is written in order to fit their own agendas.  You are a prime example of that.   Not only that, but the way you take it as gospel and then regurgitate it is frightening. 


The other thing is you better consider starting quoting me completely instead of warping my words.  I said: 
Quote
Thats weird.  There was something else going on with that dog.  Did they rule out medical causes?
not what you are implying.  That sentence was part of stating an opinion and request for further information.   

Like i said before, I'm through with you.  This is the last response you will get from me because I think you are wasting my time.  Have fun posting by yourself. 
Report to moderator   Logged
~flower~
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3582


I be dead and stinkin up teh place!!


« Reply #148 on: January 06, 2008, 05:56:35 PM »

I was not referring to this thread about your "there must be more to the story" posts.  There have been a few in the past about dog attacks.  That clear enough for you - still waiting for you to show me where I said vaccinating and not over vaccinating in this thread.  Oh, you can't because I never said that.  Smiley

  I still found it funny that you can say you see an over vaccination problem yet say every connection/possibility is false.   Undecided

  I take it as gospel that vaccinations can cause health problems.  That is a fact. Do they cause every problem - no, and I never have said they do.  A lot of people are questioning vaccinations and health problems in people and in pets.  How many articles in papers and news sources have you read in the past years on that subject?  A LOT.   How many people are told by their vets about studies  on duration of immunity and the current way thinking is going as far as vaccinating?  Not very many.   

 Tough crap if I bring that to the public.  I have made a point of saying "over vaccination" and stuff like "it's something to consider", and giving links and resources so people can educate themselves in my posts for some time now.  You seem to be the only one who is talking in absolutes.  Don't go on a tirade about something I didn't say because you have issues with yourself. Get over it.   


Report to moderator   Logged
~flower~
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3582


I be dead and stinkin up teh place!!


« Reply #149 on: January 06, 2008, 06:02:29 PM »

Schultz and Dodds blatant bias to get money for funding, For Shame!

"Adverse reactions such autoimmune diseases affecting the thyroid, joints,
blood, eyes, skin, kidney, liver, bowel and central nervous system; anaphylactic shock; aggression;seizures; epilepsy; and fibrosarcomas at injection sites are linked to rabies vaccinations."
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Theme created by Egad Community. Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!