HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!

[temper35]

Pitbulls are indeed dog agressive out of the womb unless they are socialized, this is a known fact.  they instinctively know to go for the neck, the gameness only increases their ability to do damage.  Unless you socialize a pit bull from a young age, it will most likely be very dog aggressive.  You also don't have to teach a pit bull how to fight, they know how because its in their genetic makeup.  i work with a pitbull rescue group, i work with the spca, i know my shit.   You can chose to accept this or not.  what we are dealing with is commonly referred to by experts as "prey drive," an instictive trait that was bred into bullies. 

You're also missing the point of this.  I'm not saying every dog is exactly the breed description, but there are factors at work that go down their genetic makeup that do indeed have a larger impact on their personality and behaviors than any amount of training, socialization or therapy. 

Wow.  Just wow.

You might be the dumbest dog owner I have ever met.  People like you shouldn't even be allowed to own a dog.

This conversation is over until you can find me a reputable source that says pitbulls are dog aggressive from the moment they are born.  I on the other hand have my own personal experience.  I have sat in on an interrogation of 2 dogmen who pretty much agree with everything that I say, and these are people who trained puppies to fight.  I know 2-3 people who have had litters of pitbull puppies as I was a kid growing up and never had any formal training of them whatsoever and none of them were dog aggressive.  One of these people was my next door neighbor.

Also, people like Fogle, The Monks of New Skete, Baer and Duno, Frank Nelson, Cesar Milan, Patricia McConnell.....all disagree with the myth of dogs being born aggressive, such as pitbulls.

So please sir, find me an "Expert" who can explain to me how pitbulls are aggressive out of the womb.  Because surely, all of these people are wrong and the one and only "TrapsMcLats" is right.

What an idiot.

PS-  Flower: You know nothing about behavior.  I just don't read your posts regarding it.  That is pretty much all.  No one is worked into a tither.  It is the internet darling.

[~flower~]

get ahold of yourself temper.   

 Think about what what I said -   


   I said that maybe more dogs wouldn't end up in shelters if people looked into typical breed characteristics before getting a dog.  You think that is "illogical" because not every dog will be the typical standard?  okey-dokey

  Great advice to give someone - you'd tell them to get whatever the hell breed they want and "dominate" it into being the way they think it should be.    

[temper35]

get ahold of yourself temper.   

 Think about what what I said -   


   I said that maybe more dogs wouldn't end up in shelters if people looked into typical breed characteristics before getting a dog.  You think that is "illogical" because not every dog will be the typical standard?  okey-dokey

  Great advice to give someone - you'd tell them to get whatever the hell breed they want and "dominate" it into being the way they think it should be.    

Quote where I told someone to dominate a dog.  Please do that.

[~flower~]

Quote where I told someone to dominate a dog.  Please do that.

 you said you could train them to be more or less the way YOU want them to be, you are going to breed the herding instinct out of a dog that was bred to herd?  How else are you going to undo years of breeding for certain traits and behaviors accept by dominating the animal and making it go against it's inbred instincts?  You could have some seriously messed up dogs by trying to drastically change them to fit you, instead of choosing a dog that should already start out as a better fit.
 

people say all those things because they are idiots!  Your dog can be exactly the way you want it to be, more or less, or you can usually significantly alter unwanted behaviors.  If Mindspin has a high strung, yappy dog, he can do alot to help fix that.  The fact that is a Tibetan Terrier is not the issue.

  Do you really think it is illogical to use typical breed characteristics to help a person decide which breeds might be a good fit for their family/lifestyle?

[temper35]

you said you could train them to be more or less the way YOU want them to be, you are going to breed the herding instinct out of a dog that was bred to herd?  How else are you going to undo years of breeding for certain traits and behaviors accept by dominating the animal and making it go against it's inbred instincts?  You could have some seriously messed up dogs by trying to drastically change them to fit you, instead of choosing a dog that should already start out as a better fit.
 
  Do you really think it is illogical to use typical breed characteristics to help a person decide which breeds might be a good fit for their family/lifestyle?

No I don't think thats illogical at all, which is why people shouldn't own dogs who have the potential to be problems if untrained if they are unwilling to train them.  Most people are, that is the problem.  People are lazy and ignorant.

I still never said dominate.  I did say train though

Good call there flower, wrong again.  SHOCKER.

[~flower~]

Breed descriptions mean nothing, and are most times completely false.  He got a Tibetan Terrier for christs sakes he didn't get a Presa Canario...relax

Ehhh, I dunno.  As I said I don't believe in those breed stereotypes.  All Chow's arent antisocial, all akita's aren't dog aggressive, etc.  That is a whole 'nother topic.

 and traps wrote
 

Well, i see one on a daily basis and its loud, never stops barking and fits the breed description perfectly.

and you replied:

If one pitbull attack and kills a yorkie does that mean all pitbulls will attack and kill yorkies?

If one black kid who lives in west philly shoots a cop for a traffic stop, does that mean all black kids in west philly will shoot cops when they get pulled over?

Stupid logic, come on man.

       flippy floppy

[~flower~]

No I don't think thats illogical at all, which is why people shouldn't own dogs who have the potential to be problems if untrained if they are unwilling to train them.  Most people are, that is the problem.  People are lazy and ignorant.

  if breed descriptions in your opinion are mostly completely false, how is someone to know that they are getting a potential problem dog that maybe they shouldn't own?   

[temper35]

and traps wrote
 
and you replied:

       flippy floppy

.... What?

Everything I said coincides with what I believe.

I said **********************I******************* don't believe in breed descriptions or put weight in them.  I wouldn't call it flip flopping.  I said for other people I believe in that being a good idea because they are unwilling to train them.

Where is the issue?

[~flower~]

.... What?

Everything I said coincides with what I believe.

I said **********************I******************* don't believe in breed descriptions or put weight in them.  I wouldn't call it flip flopping.  I said for other people I believe in that being a good idea because they are unwilling to train them.

Where is the issue?

  LOL!!!! 

[temper35]

if breed descriptions in your opinion are mostly completely false, how is someone to know that they are getting a potential problem dog that maybe they shouldn't own?   

See the difference?

I have said all along whether or not Tibetans are this or this does not mean it is un-correctable.  Of course Rottweilers are inherently protective, but all it takes is guidance and rules to let it know its boundaries.

If you actually read a post and took a second away from cutting up raw food for your chihuahua, you would see that theres a common theme of training in every statement I make like this.

[temper35]

  LOL!!!! 

I'm glad you are getting a kick out of me.

Ignorance is bliss.

If you ever come to Philly you can bring your dogs and I'll show you everything you are doing wrong.  Free of charge.  Well, maybe we can cook some of your dogs raw food and have dinner with that.  Deal?

[~flower~]

See the difference?

I have said all along whether or not Tibetans are this or this does not mean it is un-correctable.  Of course Rottweilers are inherently protective, but all it takes is guidance and rules to let it know its boundaries.

If you actually read a post and took a second away from cutting up raw food for your chihuahua, you would see that theres a common theme of training in every statement I make like this.

LOL!!!    

[TrapsMcLats]

Wow.  Just wow.

You might be the dumbest dog owner I have ever met.  People like you shouldn't even be allowed to own a dog.

This conversation is over until you can find me a reputable source that says pitbulls are dog aggressive from the moment they are born.  I on the other hand have my own personal experience.  I have sat in on an interrogation of 2 dogmen who pretty much agree with everything that I say, and these are people who trained puppies to fight.  I know 2-3 people who have had litters of pitbull puppies as I was a kid growing up and never had any formal training of them whatsoever and none of them were dog aggressive.  One of these people was my next door neighbor.

Also, people like Fogle, The Monks of New Skete, Baer and Duno, Frank Nelson, Cesar Milan, Patricia McConnell.....all disagree with the myth of dogs being born aggressive, such as pitbulls.

So please sir, find me an "Expert" who can explain to me how pitbulls are aggressive out of the womb.  Because surely, all of these people are wrong and the one and only "TrapsMcLats" is right.

What an idiot.

Ok, i am going to cite badrap.org, the organization that evaluated many of the vick dogs and are, what i consider, experts on pit bulls. I do work with this organization, i donate money to this organization and i consider myself to be more than a self proclaimed expert on pit bulls.  I have experience training them, evaluating them and working with them (spca, ARF, animal control).  http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm:

Don't pit bulls have to be TRAINED TO FIGHT?
No, pit bulls are terriers, and terriers tend to be scrappy with other animals if left unsocialized, poorly managed or left to their own devices. Just as farmers have used jack russel terriers to do battle with badgers, foxes and other animals, unscrupulous people have exploited the terrier drive in pit bulls against other dogs for "entertainment" purposes. Like many breeds, pit bulls can run the gammut from very dog aggressive to exceptionaly dog friendly, but each dog shares some potential to fight other dogs if mismanaged. Avoiding dog fights invloves understanding terrier traits and basic canine behavior in general.


Yeah, i'm such an idiot...   God forbid i cite the knowledge i've learned as a professional.

[temper35]

If you are a self proclaimed expert on pit bulls, may god help us all.

Having you spew shit as the mouth of reason for pitbull behavior and speaking for them in any way on this forum when there is quite a few people here who own pitbulls and know their shit...is like having Corky from Life Goes On give a seminar to Stephen Hawking's class of Math majors at Cambridge University.

[TrapsMcLats]

I own two pitbulls... and you're nowhere near as knowledgeable as i am.  Both my dogs are registered therapy dogs and canine good citizens.  I gaurantee that other pit experts here, like body88, would agree with everything i have said.  The fact is, you have no rebuttle to my last post and all you can do is try and insult me.  I come at you with facts and experience.  Another point i would like to make, people like cesar milan, or other "dog experts" are usually never going to say anything the least bit pessimistic or negative about any breed because they are looking to make money.  They claim to be dog purists or dog lovers, which is true... but they have the liberty of coming from that angle.  If you work for a non profit organization like the SPCA or BADRAP you have to be a dog realist and realize every potential pro and con of every dog you encounter.

I do consider myself a voice of reason for the breed because i am out there working for their good name. I donate money, my time, my house and anything else i can do to make up for the bad owners out there ruining the breed.  I challenge anyone on this board to present more knowledge on this breed than myself.  I also take extreme offense to being told that I should not be allowed to own dogs simply because i take a conservative, if not cautious, approach to dog ownership. 

[temper35]

I own two pitbulls... and you're nowhere near as knowledgeable as i am.  Both my dogs are registered therapy dogs and canine good citizens.  I gaurantee that other pit experts here, like body88, would agree with everything i have said.  The fact is, you have no rebuttle to my last post and all you can do is try and insult me.  I come at you with facts and experience.  Another point i would like to make, people like cesar milan, or other "dog experts" are usually never going to say anything the least bit pessimistic or negative about any breed because they are looking to make money.  They claim to be dog purists or dog lovers, which is true... but they have the liberty of coming from that angle.  If you work for a non profit organization like the SPCA or BADRAP you have to be a dog realist and realize every potential pro and con of every dog you encounter.

I do consider myself a voice of reason for the breed because i am out there working for their good name. I donate money, my time, my house and anything else i can do to make up for the bad owners out there ruining the breed.  I challenge anyone on this board to present more knowledge on this breed than myself.  I also take extreme offense to being told that I should not be allowed to own dogs simply because i take a conservative, if not cautious, approach to dog ownership. 

Cesar Milan's main dog is a pitbull and preaches about the fact that it has nothing to do with breed.  Have you read his books.  There is a section called "The Myth of the Problem Breed"

Can I have your name and the name of your 2 dogs so I can look up and find their CGC certificates and what therapy dog association they are registered with?  For a pitbull owner whom both has registered therapy dogs and obedience titled dogs to be so ignorant is really saddening to me.  I'd like to verify this.

PM me the info.

[TrapsMcLats]

Again with the insults... thats really not necessary and i'd like you to point out where i am being so ignorant. I have backed up all my statements with sound evidence from well respected organizations and websites. I sound like a knowledeable, reasonable, responsible pit owner. 

[temper35]

Again with the insults... thats really not necessary and i'd like you to point out where i am being so ignorant. I have backed up all my statements with sound evidence from well respected organizations and websites. I sound like a knowledeable, reasonable, responsible pit owner. 

I got your PM.  You can photocopy their certificates with your own name blacked out.  I can post my own dogs CGC certificate that he passed when he was 9 months old if you like.

I just don't believe you.  That is the issue.  You brought it up, I called you out.

[TrapsMcLats]

I got your PM.  You can photocopy their certificates with your own name blacked out.  I can post my own dogs CGC certificate that he passed when he was 9 months old if you like.

I just don't believe you.  That is the issue.  You brought it up, I called you out.

Thats really great, i told you i don't send info to strangers, especially over the net.  I still want to know where I sound so ignorant.

[temper35]

From your PM, regarding Cesar:

"He is incredible, no doubt, but he has also killed people's pits by leaving them unattended on treadmills on more than one occasion (one was a big NBC or CBS exec or something) and he has displayed other things that have troubled me.  redman had a problem with a pitbull of his, so cesar took it, trained and then took it on an appearance on the jay leno show.  The dog was extremely sweet, well behaved and kind.  With a simple command, the dog was growling and looking menacingly at Leno, then he made another command and the dog went right back to its previous state. "

I have NEVER EVER heard that about the CBS/NBC exec.  Please prove that.  I ain't sayin it isn't true but I doubt it.

Also.  Redman gave his pitbull to Cesar when he was a puppy so he wouldn't have to travel with it.  He uses that pitbull "Daddy" for a ton of shows and brings him to any appearance local in the LA area.  I have never heard anything of the sort about Daddy.

Cesar did a seminar for the Colonial Rottweiler Club about a year ago.  Mostly all of my obedience school went.  It was awesome and he spoke for like 3 hours.  Someone had their Rottie there who was from another club, I believe his name was "Nike" and at the very end of the show they let the dog out of the crate and Cesar completely ignored it.  It eventually gravitated toward Cesar and they were playing and he was petting him.  Now Nike is a supposedly aloof dog according to his owner, I had never met the person before, and the dog just melted around him.

Secondly, the trainer of my obedience class, her dog is OTCH.  Look it up if you don't know what it means.  When her dog got her "OTCH" she was invited by the Dog Pysch Center of LA(Cesar's place) to come out when they met at the seminar.  She did not bring her dog, but coming from a woman who spoke so highly of him and the dog psychology center, I take her word 100%.  This is a woman who has a dog who has completed every possible obedience title there is on TWO dogs.

Of all the "dog psychologists"/trainers/guru's whatever you wanna call them out there, he is not one I have a problem with.  The Monks of New Skete and their flip flopping, and their level of physicality, while I do not disagree it can be useful, I disagree with.

[temper35]

Thats really great, i told you i don't send info to strangers, especially over the net.  I still want to know where I sound so ignorant.

You can't photocopy or scan the CGC certificates, and the therapy dog certificates, of your dogs and BLACK OUT YOUR NAME?  That is something to be proud of if its true.

[TrapsMcLats]

This is a link to one story:
http://poochmaster.blogspot.com/2006/05/cesar-milan-accused-sued-for-animal.html

I am looking for the other one.  They may have settled, but i distinctly remember  that there was a 2nd lawsuit or claim of similar situation that resulted in death of the dog.

[TrapsMcLats]

From your PM, regarding Cesar:

"He is incredible, no doubt, but he has also killed people's pits by leaving them unattended on treadmills on more than one occasion (one was a big NBC or CBS exec or something) and he has displayed other things that have troubled me.  redman had a problem with a pitbull of his, so cesar took it, trained and then took it on an appearance on the jay leno show.  The dog was extremely sweet, well behaved and kind.  With a simple command, the dog was growling and looking menacingly at Leno, then he made another command and the dog went right back to its previous state. "

I have NEVER EVER heard that about the CBS/NBC exec.  Please prove that.  I ain't sayin it isn't true but I doubt it.

Also.  Redman gave his pitbull to Cesar when he was a puppy so he wouldn't have to travel with it.  He uses that pitbull "Daddy" for a ton of shows and brings him to any appearance local in the LA area.  I have never heard anything of the sort about Daddy.

Cesar did a seminar for the Colonial Rottweiler Club about a year ago.  Mostly all of my obedience school went.  It was awesome and he spoke for like 3 hours.  Someone had their Rottie there who was from another club, I believe his name was "Nike" and at the very end of the show they let the dog out of the crate and Cesar completely ignored it.  It eventually gravitated toward Cesar and they were playing and he was petting him.  Now Nike is a supposedly aloof dog according to his owner, I had never met the person before, and the dog just melted around him.

Secondly, the trainer of my obedience class, her dog is OTCH.  Look it up if you don't know what it means.  When her dog got her "OTCH" she was invited by the Dog Pysch Center of LA(Cesar's place) to come out when they met at the seminar.  She did not bring her dog, but coming from a woman who spoke so highly of him and the dog psychology center, I take her word 100%.  This is a woman who has a dog who has completed every possible obedience title there is on TWO dogs.

Of all the "dog psychologists"/trainers/guru's whatever you wanna call them out there, he is not one I have a problem with.  The Monks of New Skete and their flip flopping, and their level of physicality, while I do not disagree it can be useful, I disagree with.

In terms of level of physicality (as i am not familar with the monks of new skete) is it more than cesar's tactic of exercising the crap outta the dog and establishing dominance (he says, if you spend 60 minutes with your pet, 45 should be exercise)?

[temper35]

This is a link to one story:
http://poochmaster.blogspot.com/2006/05/cesar-milan-accused-sued-for-animal.html

I am looking for the other one.  They may have settled, but i distinctly remember  that there was a 2nd lawsuit or claim of similar situation that resulted in death of the dog.

From the sound of the story it explicity states it was the workers of the facility.  Cesar himself didn't do it, although of course he is liable.

What was the outcome of the lawsuit?

[temper35]

In terms of level of physicality (as i am not familar with the monks of new skete) is it more than cesar's tactic of exercising the crap outta the dog and establishing dominance (he says, if you spend 60 minutes with your pet, 45 should be exercise)?

No, people think Cesar is too physical because of the use of the hand to mimic a dog bite, and Cesar also advocates rolling.

The Monks of New Skete advocate scruffing and pops under the chin.  I don't necessarily disagree with this but it really depends on the dog and the age of the dog.  I'd never do either to a puppy, or even a dog well into his life.  At least rolling a dog has a place in pack life.