Author Topic: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax  (Read 15685 times)

240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2007, 02:08:56 PM »
And the largest tax increase in history was signed by Ronald Reagan and not Bill Clinton.

owned!

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2007, 02:40:39 PM »
owned!
It wasn't.

Treasury Tax Expert to Bush: Clinton's Increase WASN'T The Biggest.


"That 1982 tax increase only slightly exceeded Clinton's in inflation-adjusted dollars ($37 billion a year vs.. $32 billion) but it was much bigger in relation to the size of the economy. The '82 increase amounted to 0.8% of GDP (average for the first two years) while Clinton's was 0.5%."
http://www.factcheck.org/print_treasury_tax_expert_to_bush_clintons_increase.html

Ozark

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2007, 03:14:19 PM »
Quote
When did Clinton raise taxes on the middle class ?

In 1993, it raised the taxes on the middle class, along with other raises that included :

    * It created 36 percent and 39.6 income tax rates for individuals.
    * It created a 35 percent income tax rate for corporations.
    * The cap on Medicare taxes was repealed.
    * Transportation fuels taxes were hiked by 4.3 cents per gallon.
    * The taxable portion of Social Security benefits was raised.
    * The phase-out of the personal exemption and limit on itemized deductions were permanently extended.









Vote for Ron Paul !




Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2007, 03:32:52 PM »
Fuck Huckabee's Plan!

Ron Paul's Plan all the way!

Fuckabee is a wannabe!

                                                               
I hate the State.

Ozark

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2007, 03:33:20 PM »
Quote
owned!

240,

how is the  "owned "  ?



waiting................. .....

Camel Jockey

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16711
  • Mel Gibson and Bob Sly World Domination
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2007, 03:35:58 PM »
A free market economy can't run on that kind of taxation.

It would create a huge undergound economy.

Ozark

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2007, 03:47:08 PM »
my first choice is to do away with the IRS altogether as Ron Paul wants to do,

but as far as a fair tax, it is better than the current tax system :

 Pros:

  1.  A national sales tax discourages consumption, leading to a conservation of resources.
   2. The removal of an income tax encourages saving and investing, which is the key to job growth.
   3. Individuals would have an extra incentive to work hard and earn income, leading to a far more productive nation.
   4. A sales tax would be a much simpler system, eliminating the need for individuals to comply with complex tax reporting requirements and freeing up all the money & time lost on the income tax process.
   5. Tax rates can be targeted to encourage or discourage the consumption of certain items.
   6. Consumer prices of certain items would fall since labor and tax compliance costs would be cheaper to businesses.
   7.It would allow a greater collection of tax money from those carrying out illegal transactions, since their income is hid from the income tax system but will be taxed when they spend it in a sales tax.
   8. It's a tax system consistent with a free society; i.e. Americans have a choice regarding their taxes, unlike our current confiscation system.




   1. A national sales tax discourages consumption, leading to a conservation of resources. One of the biggest complaints other countries around the world have about the U.S. is that we consume more than 25 percent of the world's resources despite comprising less than 4 percent of the population. Especially when it comes to scarce, non-renewable resources such as oil, few people would argue that we need to cut wasteful consumption. The basic economic law of supply & demand says that as prices go up for an item, demand will go down. Thus, as a society, our national consumption should decrease with a national sales tax.

   2. The removal of an income tax encourages saving and investing, which is the key to job growth. The national savings rate is currently a putrid 4 percent of income. When Americans increase saving & investing, interest rates go down and the economy expands since banks and corporations have more funds to invest in new projects, new stores, new businesses, etc. A national sales tax would encourage increased saving & investing for two reasons: 1) Earnings from investments wouldn't be taxed; thus, the effective rate of return would increase; 2) Americans are never taxed unless they spend money, which they would have to do on much more expensive consumer goods; thus, they have extra incentive to refrain from frivolous spending.

   3. Individuals would have an extra incentive to work hard and earn income, leading to a far more productive nation. Our tax system is completely backwards when you consider the fact that the majority of government revenues come from tax on our earned income. National employment drives the productivity of the country. Since we tax personal incomes, we are actually punishing people for working. What's worse is that we have a "progressive" tax system, meaning rates go up as you make more. This in effect punishes the most successful and the hardest workers. Corporations, which provide the greatest amount of national jobs, are even taxed twice: once at the corporate level plus a second time when earnings are distributed to shareholders. If you take away the income tax, you give every worker in America a raise (except those that don't pay an income tax), which encourages citizens to work more hours. Think about it, if your take-home pay was $20 per hour instead of $14 per hour, would you be willing to work more hours?

   4. A sales tax would be a much simpler system, eliminating the need for individuals to comply with complex tax reporting requirements and freeing up all the money & time lost on the income tax process. Hundreds of billions of dollars are spent every year and billions of hours wasted complying with the incredibly complex American income tax system. Replacing the income tax with a national sales tax would free up all the resources necessary to fulfill those tax requirements. Only businesses that sell goods would be required to file federal tax returns, and the system would be much simpler since they would only have to multiply each sale by the specified rate. As a nation, we would no longer have to waste time & money figuring out depreciation recapture, itemized deduction phase-outs, alternative minimum taxes, charitable deduction caps, and so on. Think about how happy the environmentalists will be when they hear about all the trees that will be saved from the elimination of all those tax forms & schedules!

   5. Tax rates can be targeted to encourage or discourage the consumption of certain items. A national sales tax doesn't mean one standard rate for every consumer good sold in the country. We can customize the rates to help the poor provide for basic necessities as well as discourage or encourage the consumption of certain items. For example, food and lower-priced clothing could be tax-free. Gasoline, cigarettes, fast food, alcohol, and fuel-guzzling automobiles could face steep tax rates. Hydrogen & electric-powered cars, equipment used in a business, and home improvement material could be given minimal tax rates. Get the picture? Once again, the economic law of supply & demand will increase/decrease consumption of particular items.

   6. Consumer prices of certain items would fall since labor and tax compliance costs would be cheaper to businesses. Every cent that goes into producing a product or service is reflected in it's price. For example, if a law firm pays a clerk $25 per hour to service a client, it must charge the client at least that much to avoid losing money. Any business will usually add a certain markup to ensure an adequate profit for the effort and risk. Thus, if you cut the underlying cost, you cut the final price charged to consumers. Elimination of the income tax means a reduction in payroll taxes for businesses as well as the elimination of the need for much of the human resource & payroll departments. Consequently, the cost of offering related products & services drops.

   7. It would allow a greater collection of tax money from those carrying out illegal transactions, since their income is hid from the income tax system but will be taxed when they spend it in a sales tax. Drug dealers, prostitutes, black market dealers, and bookies are examples of people who earn income illegally. Since these and others engaging in illegal transactions obviously don't want the government to know about their activities, the income generated won't be reported on income tax returns. Thus, none of that money is subject to tax. However, with a sales tax, it doesn't matter how money is earned, since the tax is collected immediately by the seller.

   8. It's a tax system consistent with a free society; i.e. Americans have a choice regarding their taxes, unlike our current confiscation system. Our Founding Fathers went to war with England in large part to get away from a stifling tax system like that which we currently face. The U.S.A. is supposed to be a free country with little government interference. However, in our current tax system, we must pay a significant portion of our earnings regardless if we use government services or not. Since our income is taxed and we all have to generate earnings to survive, we don't have a choice. If we institute a national sales tax, the amount of tax we pay is completely up to the individual. We aren't taxed a penny until we go out and spend. Thus, a national sales tax is consistent with the very idea and foundation of America.

240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2007, 03:59:56 PM »
i just felt like using the word owned felt right at the time.

Tre

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16548
  • "What you don't have is a career."
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2007, 05:59:48 PM »
and what has Decker done , but give his opinion ?

He stated his problems with the plan and specified why it's a bad idea.  Sure, it's his opinion, but he argued his case.

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2007, 06:08:34 AM »
In 1993, it raised the taxes on the middle class, along with other raises that included :

    * It created 36 percent and 39.6 income tax rates for individuals.
    * It created a 35 percent income tax rate for corporations.
    * The cap on Medicare taxes was repealed.
    * Transportation fuels taxes were hiked by 4.3 cents per gallon.
    * The taxable portion of Social Security benefits was raised.
    * The phase-out of the personal exemption and limit on itemized deductions were permanently extended.
Vote for Ron Paul !
In 1993, he did not raise taxes on the middle class, he cut income taxes on the middle class. The omnibus budget reconciliation act raised taxes on the high end, not the middle class.

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2007, 06:23:39 AM »
my first choice is to do away with the IRS altogether as Ron Paul wants to do,

but as far as a fair tax, it is better than the current tax system :

 Pros:

  1.  A national sales tax discourages consumption, leading to a conservation of resources.
   2. The removal of an income tax encourages saving and investing, which is the key to job growth.
   3. Individuals would have an extra incentive to work hard and earn income, leading to a far more productive nation.
   4. A sales tax would be a much simpler system, eliminating the need for individuals to comply with complex tax reporting requirements and freeing up all the money & time lost on the income tax process.
   5. Tax rates can be targeted to encourage or discourage the consumption of certain items.
   6. Consumer prices of certain items would fall since labor and tax compliance costs would be cheaper to businesses.
   7.It would allow a greater collection of tax money from those carrying out illegal transactions, since their income is hid from the income tax system but will be taxed when they spend it in a sales tax.
   8. It's a tax system consistent with a free society; i.e. Americans have a choice regarding their taxes, unlike our current confiscation system.




   1. A national sales tax discourages consumption, leading to a conservation of resources. One of the biggest complaints other countries around the world have about the U.S. is that we consume more than 25 percent of the world's resources despite comprising less than 4 percent of the population. Especially when it comes to scarce, non-renewable resources such as oil, few people would argue that we need to cut wasteful consumption. The basic economic law of supply & demand says that as prices go up for an item, demand will go down. Thus, as a society, our national consumption should decrease with a national sales tax.

   2. The removal of an income tax encourages saving and investing, which is the key to job growth. The national savings rate is currently a putrid 4 percent of income. When Americans increase saving & investing, interest rates go down and the economy expands since banks and corporations have more funds to invest in new projects, new stores, new businesses, etc. A national sales tax would encourage increased saving & investing for two reasons: 1) Earnings from investments wouldn't be taxed; thus, the effective rate of return would increase; 2) Americans are never taxed unless they spend money, which they would have to do on much more expensive consumer goods; thus, they have extra incentive to refrain from frivolous spending.

   3. Individuals would have an extra incentive to work hard and earn income, leading to a far more productive nation. Our tax system is completely backwards when you consider the fact that the majority of government revenues come from tax on our earned income. National employment drives the productivity of the country. Since we tax personal incomes, we are actually punishing people for working. What's worse is that we have a "progressive" tax system, meaning rates go up as you make more. This in effect punishes the most successful and the hardest workers. Corporations, which provide the greatest amount of national jobs, are even taxed twice: once at the corporate level plus a second time when earnings are distributed to shareholders. If you take away the income tax, you give every worker in America a raise (except those that don't pay an income tax), which encourages citizens to work more hours. Think about it, if your take-home pay was $20 per hour instead of $14 per hour, would you be willing to work more hours?

   4. A sales tax would be a much simpler system, eliminating the need for individuals to comply with complex tax reporting requirements and freeing up all the money & time lost on the income tax process. Hundreds of billions of dollars are spent every year and billions of hours wasted complying with the incredibly complex American income tax system. Replacing the income tax with a national sales tax would free up all the resources necessary to fulfill those tax requirements. Only businesses that sell goods would be required to file federal tax returns, and the system would be much simpler since they would only have to multiply each sale by the specified rate. As a nation, we would no longer have to waste time & money figuring out depreciation recapture, itemized deduction phase-outs, alternative minimum taxes, charitable deduction caps, and so on. Think about how happy the environmentalists will be when they hear about all the trees that will be saved from the elimination of all those tax forms & schedules!

   5. Tax rates can be targeted to encourage or discourage the consumption of certain items. A national sales tax doesn't mean one standard rate for every consumer good sold in the country. We can customize the rates to help the poor provide for basic necessities as well as discourage or encourage the consumption of certain items. For example, food and lower-priced clothing could be tax-free. Gasoline, cigarettes, fast food, alcohol, and fuel-guzzling automobiles could face steep tax rates. Hydrogen & electric-powered cars, equipment used in a business, and home improvement material could be given minimal tax rates. Get the picture? Once again, the economic law of supply & demand will increase/decrease consumption of particular items.

   6. Consumer prices of certain items would fall since labor and tax compliance costs would be cheaper to businesses. Every cent that goes into producing a product or service is reflected in it's price. For example, if a law firm pays a clerk $25 per hour to service a client, it must charge the client at least that much to avoid losing money. Any business will usually add a certain markup to ensure an adequate profit for the effort and risk. Thus, if you cut the underlying cost, you cut the final price charged to consumers. Elimination of the income tax means a reduction in payroll taxes for businesses as well as the elimination of the need for much of the human resource & payroll departments. Consequently, the cost of offering related products & services drops.

   7. It would allow a greater collection of tax money from those carrying out illegal transactions, since their income is hid from the income tax system but will be taxed when they spend it in a sales tax. Drug dealers, prostitutes, black market dealers, and bookies are examples of people who earn income illegally. Since these and others engaging in illegal transactions obviously don't want the government to know about their activities, the income generated won't be reported on income tax returns. Thus, none of that money is subject to tax. However, with a sales tax, it doesn't matter how money is earned, since the tax is collected immediately by the seller.

   8. It's a tax system consistent with a free society; i.e. Americans have a choice regarding their taxes, unlike our current confiscation system. Our Founding Fathers went to war with England in large part to get away from a stifling tax system like that which we currently face. The U.S.A. is supposed to be a free country with little government interference. However, in our current tax system, we must pay a significant portion of our earnings regardless if we use government services or not. Since our income is taxed and we all have to generate earnings to survive, we don't have a choice. If we institute a national sales tax, the amount of tax we pay is completely up to the individual. We aren't taxed a penny until we go out and spend. Thus, a national sales tax is consistent with the very idea and foundation of America.
Again, you list talking point conclusions as if they are facts.

Why the 23% Fair Sales Tax also cures impotence, cancer and extends natural life by 15 years.

So going after the whores and drug dealers is the best way to raise tax revenue?  If drug dealers/criminals break the law to make their money, why should they follow the law by submitting 23% of their ill-gotten cash every time they buy a product?  Think Tony Soprano.

So a national sales tax discourages consumption?  You're damn right it does.  When the low and middle class have to pay an additional 23% for every single food item, we'll see poverty start spike again.

You really should read the materials you cut and paste:  "Tax rates can be targeted to encourage or discourage the consumption of certain items....Tax rates can be targeted to encourage or discourage the consumption of certain items. A national sales tax doesn't mean one standard rate for every consumer good sold in the country. We can customize the rates to help the poor provide for basic necessities as well as discourage or encourage the consumption of certain items." 

So now you want to introduce some degree of progressivity to the "flat" tax?

Looks like we already have that with the current system.

The National Sales Tax has no federal branch for compliance or enforcement.  A new federal entity must be created b/c you want the IRS scrapped.  That'll cost a fortune in and of itself.

Rich people and crooks will avoid the tax by either buying black market (untaxed) goods or they'll stop buying american products all together.  Therefore, the 23% tax cut for them puts the government in a bind to recover the lost revenue. 

The rich see their taxes reduced from 36% to 23%.

The poor see their taxes go up from 10% or 15% to 23% but there's some sort of welfare rebate check that the government will provide them.

If the government slashes the tax rate for the high earners (who pay the majority of the taxes in the country) by 13%, where is the loss in tax revenue going to come from?


Ozark

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2007, 10:37:26 AM »
Why the 23% Fair Sales Tax also cures impotence, cancer and extends natural life by 15 years.

Actually it is your liberal hero Hillary Clinton that is making all kinds of statements as this ...... if you vote for her, "free health Insurance", "free daycare",   " lower oil cost" ,  etc........    :o

So going after the whores and drug dealers is the best way to raise tax revenue?  If drug dealers/criminals break the law to make their money, why should they follow the law by submitting 23% of their ill-gotten cash every time they buy a product?  Think Tony Soprano.


Wrong again lib,
Tax evasion is chronic under any system so complex as to be incomprehensible. As a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), tax evasion in 2001 was beyond 2.6 percent, compared to 1.6 percent in 1991. This represents over 16 percent of taxes due. Almost 40 percent of the public, according to the IRS, is out of compliance with the present tax system, mostly unintentionally due to the enormous complexity of the present system. These IRS figures do not include taxes lost on illegal sources of income with a criminal economy estimated at a trillion dollars. All this, despite a major enforcement effort and assessment of tens of millions of civil penalties on American taxpayers in an effort to force compliance with the tax system. Disrespect for the tax system and the law has reached dangerous levels and makes a system based on taxpayer self-assessment less and less viable.

The FairTax reduces rather than increases the problem of tax evasion. The increased fairness, transparency, and legitimacy of the system induces more compliance. The roughly 90-percent reduction in filers enables tax administrators more narrowly and effectively to address noncompliance and increases the likelihood of tax evasion discovery. The relative simplicity of the FairTax promotes compliance. Businesses need answer only one question to determine the tax due: How much was sold to consumers? Finally, because tax rates decrease, tax evasion is less profitable; and because of the dramatic reduction in the number of tax filers, tax evaders are more easily monitored and caught under the FairTax system.


So a national sales tax discourages consumption?  You're damn right it does.  When the low and middle class have to pay an additional 23% for every single food item, we'll see poverty start spike again.

Wrong again lib, 
Low-income households experience a 26.7 percent welfare gain under the FairTax
 Middle-income households experience a 10.9 percent welfare gain
 High-income households experience a 4.7 percent welfare gain


You really should read the materials you cut and paste:  "Tax rates can be targeted to encourage or discourage the consumption of certain items....Tax rates can be targeted to encourage or discourage the consumption of certain items. A national sales tax doesn't mean one standard rate for every consumer good sold in the country. We can customize the rates to help the poor provide for basic necessities as well as discourage or encourage the consumption of certain items."

So now you want to introduce some degree of progressivity to the "flat" tax?

Looks like we already have that with the current system.

The National Sales Tax has no federal branch for compliance or enforcement.  A new federal entity must be created b/c you want the IRS scrapped.  That'll cost a fortune in and of itself.

Wrong again lib, 
Retail businesses collect the tax from the consumer, just as state sales tax systems already do in 45 states; the FairTax is simply an additional line on the current sales tax reporting form. Retailers simply collect the tax and send it to the state taxing authority. All businesses serving as collection agents receive a fee for collection, and the states also receive a collection fee. The tax revenues from the states are then sent to the U.S. Treasury.




Rich people and crooks will avoid the tax by either buying black market (untaxed) goods or they'll stop buying american products all together.  Therefore, the 23% tax cut for them puts the government in a bind to recover the lost revenue.

You mean to say that the current system is dealt with by the rich and crooks in an honest way ? give me a fuking break .

the fair tax is much harder for these 2 groups to abuse.


once again , The FairTax reduces rather than increases the problem of tax evasion. The increased fairness, transparency, and legitimacy of the system induces more compliance. The roughly 90-percent reduction in filers enables tax administrators more narrowly and effectively to address noncompliance and increases the likelihood of tax evasion discovery. The relative simplicity of the FairTax promotes compliance. Businesses need answer only one question to determine the tax due: How much was sold to consumers? Finally, because tax rates decrease, tax evasion is less profitable; and because of the dramatic reduction in the number of tax filers, tax evaders are more easily monitored and caught under the FairTax system.


The rich see their taxes reduced from 36% to 23%.


Wealthy people spend more money than other individuals. They buy expensive cars, big houses, and yachts. They buy filet mignon instead of hamburger, fine wine instead of beer, designer dresses, and expensive jewelry. The FairTax taxes them on these purchases. If, however, they use their money to build job-creating factories, finance research and development to create new products, or fund charitable activities (all of which help improve the standard of living of others), then those activities are not taxed.


Let’s look at a billionaire under the FairTax -- if he spends $10,000,000 dollars he pays a tax of $2,300,000 and gets a prebate of $4,697 (assuming he is married and has no children). His effective tax rate as a percent of spending is 22.95 percent.

Now, let’s look at a middle-income married couple with no children under the FairTax -- if they spend $50,000, they pay $6,803 net of their prebate for an effective tax rate of 13.6 percent. The effective tax rate increases as spending increases, but never exceeds 23 percent!


The poor see their taxes go up from 10% or 15% to 23% but there's some sort of welfare rebate check that the government will provide them.
wrong again lib,
Under the FairTax Plan, poor people pay no net FairTax at all up to the poverty level! Every household receives a rebate that is equal to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, and wage earners are no longer subject to the most regressive and burdensome tax of all, the payroll tax. Those spending at twice the poverty level pay a tax of only 11.5 percent -- a rate much lower than the income and payroll tax burden they bear today.

If the government slashes the tax rate for the high earners (who pay the majority of the taxes in the country) by 13%, where is the loss in tax revenue going to come from?

lib, you are wrong as always,  Their are billions hidden in foreign accounts, that could be brought back into our economy, increasing revenue, and as stated earlier, it would allow a greater collection of tax money from those carrying out illegal transactions, since their income is hid from the income tax system but will be taxed when they spend it in a sales tax. Drug dealers, prostitutes, black market dealers, and bookies are examples of people who earn income illegally. Since these and others engaging in illegal transactions obviously don't want the government to know about their activities, the income generated won't be reported on income tax returns. Thus, none of that money is subject to tax. However, with a sales tax, it doesn't matter how money is earned, since the tax is collected immediately by the seller.


Colossus_500

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3993
  • Psalm 139
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2007, 12:17:14 PM »
colossus,

there are a lot of americans without the brains to control their own money, would you agree?
Yep, and they'd be no less worse off than they are now.  That's just my opinion.

240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2007, 01:12:43 PM »
Yep, and they'd be no less worse off than they are now.  That's just my opinion.

dude.... people go broke and homeless now, and that's when the govt manages most of the their $.

You give them complete control to invest, spend, use up their money, and many will blow it all or put it all on the wrong stock and go broke.

You might say "okay, fukkem... who cares"...

But...

When we have 10 or 20 million new homeless people doing homeless things (spreading disease, committing crimes, putting strain on public health services), you will certainly see our american way of life decline.




People cannot manage their own money.  Even if only 1% of them crap out, that's still 3 million new homeless people willing to stick a gun in your mouth for a bite of food.  You can't let ppl destroy themselves because it DOES affect us.

Ozark

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2007, 01:24:27 PM »
Quote
dude.... people go broke and homeless now, and that's when the govt manages most of the their $.

You give them complete control to invest, spend, use up their money, and many will blow it all or put it all on the wrong stock and go broke.

You might say "okay, fukkem... who cares"...

But...

When we have 10 or 20 million new homeless people doing homeless things (spreading disease, committing crimes, putting strain on public health services), you will certainly see our american way of life decline.




People cannot manage their own money.  Even if only 1% of them crap out, that's still 3 million new homeless people willing to stick a gun in your mouth for a bite of food.  You can't let ppl destroy themselves because it DOES affect us.



240, you have lost your mind.

You have turned into a communist !    :o   :o   :o   :o

It is not the Governments right to control our money, that we have earned,
 And thus being one of the main reasons our Founding Fathers created this great Country !

yes their are some idiots, but you don't control ( punish )  everyone because of this.

what's next ?  you will want the government telling all of us what to do for a living ? and where to live ? and testing us to see if we are up to their requirements to have children ?  all because some people are dumb, and the Government thinks we are not smart enough !

And if you re-read what Colossus wrote, it was nothing about not paying any taxes, it was  "I like the fact that this option gives the average citizen more control over their money."    240,  Do you really think this is a bad thing ? or are you just having fun debating on here ? because if it is the first,  you really have lost it,  and you should move to a Communist Country !  How about Cuba !

Your way of thinking is really messed up.  That's just my opinion.







Vote for Ron Paul !

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22846
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2007, 01:35:32 PM »
I still like the idea, as I've read much of what people have said here.  I believe we can find a way to make it "fair" in terms of not burdening the poor.  Perhaps quarterly tax credits/rebates.

BTW, in California we don't pay sales tax on most food.  I don't see why that couldn't be the case with this too. 

Also, the annual retail sales per capita in Cali is about $10,000 while the average income per capita is $22,710.   So it seems we'd pay about the same.  Plus, collecting will be easier as the mechanism to collect is already in place.

Again,  I realize i am not a economics major, or well informed in this, it just seems on paper to make sense.

Ozark

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2007, 02:03:25 PM »


240, watch this :







240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2007, 02:04:00 PM »
dude, it's not communism.  It's common sense economics.  Think about it.

You live in a beautiful house.  You have 19 neighbors on your block who also live in beautiful homes.  If they all lose their homes, do you think your quality of life will increase or decrease?  There is a strong likelihood that at the very least, you'll have 19 families begging from you, and in worst case, 19 families robbing your home while you're at work, or worse.


I agree in capitalist principles.  But imagine it to the extreme.  imagine 10% of our people learn to "work" this new system and 90% of our people get swindled or just plain lose their $.

That 90% of people will no longer contribute to society.  The opposite in fact - they'll spread disease, they'll sleep in our doorways, they'll be sticking us up for $ to eat.  I am NOT for welfare.  But I am for keeping a system in place that keeps most folks from wasting their $ on get-rich schemes.

BTW---> I used to think like that - who cares about everyone else.  Then I releaized we live in an open society where the poor and desperate can very quickly fucck up the lives of the wealthy and happy.

240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2007, 02:09:16 PM »
I like ron paul.  he's right about most of the things he says.  I'd be happy if he won.  It would truly be a modern day revolution.

but...

I know there are a lot of uneducated americans.  I know there are greedy and exploitive americans who would milk this.  Imgine how many "Put your retirement savings HERE and double it in a year!" scams would be out there.  And imagine how many ppl would fall for it.


Think in REALITY.  What would happen if within 5 years, 50% of our population had wasted their retirement $?  Bad bad things.  I'm all for Paul's removing the BS agencies that take money and work on fear.  But ending social security scares me. 

Ozark

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2007, 02:09:33 PM »
240,

Colossus nor I for that matter never mentioned anything about doing away with Social Security.

And with out the income Tax, the Government still has numerous other sources of income ( revenue )


once again 240, you should move to Cuba, you would fit in well.

and once again,  you don't punish all because the stupid decisions of a few,  ( unless you are a communist ! )




240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2007, 02:10:44 PM »
dude, you're saying that ppl who don't like the idea of a 23% flat tax are communists?

you're kidding, right?

Ozark

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 222
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2007, 02:17:44 PM »
Quote
dude, you're saying that ppl who don't like the idea of a 23% flat tax are communists?

you're kidding, right?

No, that is not what I am saying, not at all, and you know that.......... but nice try at deflecting!   :o




but i do think that people that say :

"   People cannot manage their own money.  Even if only 1% of them crap out, that's still 3 million new homeless people willing to stick a gun in your mouth for a bite of food.  You can't let ppl destroy themselves because it DOES affect us."  - 240   

.........are of a Communist way of thinking.


and as I wrote earlier, the 23 % fair tax is not my first choice, I prefer the Ron Paul way, to do away with the IRS,
I just think the 23 % fair tax is a better system than our current tax system, and deserves a defense on here.


240,  Did you read anything about the Fair Tax ?  I think not,  as you seem to think it is doing away with the Social Security , as you just wrote:

 "I know there are a lot of uneducated Americans.  I know there are greedy and exploitive Americans who would milk this.  Imagine how many "Put your retirement savings HERE and double it in a year!" scams would be out there.  And imagine how many ppl would fall for it.

It is not doing away with the Social Security, it would be funded with the 23 % still,
also you keep saying how 90 % wont be paying taxes, where do you get this ?

You think the current system is without cheaters ?   :o

Maybe you should read about it , before making such statements.

The FairTax reduces rather than increases the problem of tax evasion. The increased fairness, transparency, and legitimacy of the system induces more compliance. The roughly 90-percent reduction in filers enables tax administrators more narrowly and effectively to address noncompliance and increases the likelihood of tax evasion discovery. The relative simplicity of the FairTax promotes compliance. Businesses need answer only one question to determine the tax due: How much was sold to consumers? Finally, because tax rates decrease, tax evasion is less profitable; and because of the dramatic reduction in the number of tax filers, tax evaders are more easily monitored and caught under the FairTax system.


240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2007, 03:29:22 PM »
can you give me info of the fair tax system - that comes from a group without a political bias toward the dark side?

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2007, 03:33:21 PM »
Actually it is your liberal hero Hillary Clinton that is making all kinds of statements as this ...... if you vote for her, "free health Insurance", "free daycare",   " lower oil cost" ,  etc........    :o

The only debate you have any chance of winning is the one where you make my arguments for me, like above with the Hillary nonsense. 


Wrong again lib,
Tax evasion is chronic under any system so complex as to be incomprehensible.....

The FairTax reduces rather than increases the problem of tax evasion. The increased fairness, transparency, and legitimacy of the system induces more compliance. The roughly 90-percent reduction in filers enables tax administrators more narrowly and effectively to address noncompliance and increases the likelihood of tax evasion discovery. The relative simplicity of the FairTax promotes compliance. Businesses need answer only one question to determine the tax due: How much was sold to consumers? Finally, because tax rates decrease, tax evasion is less profitable; and because of the dramatic reduction in the number of tax filers, tax evaders are more easily monitored and caught under the FairTax system.

I have a pretty good idea about what tax avoidance and evasion are.  I'm a tax lawyer.

You on the other hand haven't a clue about what you write about and your desperate cutting and pasting just drives that point home.

And once again you do not answer the question.  Why should criminals suddenly pay this absurd 23% sales tax when they can create/take advantage of untaxed black market items?

Why should the wealthy pay any tax when they can incorporate in the US to have a US source income and live abroad?

Wrong again lib, 
Low-income households experience a 26.7 percent welfare gain under the FairTax
 Middle-income households experience a 10.9 percent welfare gain
 High-income households experience a 4.7 percent welfare gain


So you advocate another big government welfare program?  Your numbers don't add up. 

Look, everything's free, free, free.  The gov. is just churning out welfare checks for everyone.

Wrong again lib, 
Retail businesses collect the tax from the consumer, just as state sales tax systems already do in 45 states; the FairTax is simply an additional line on the current sales tax reporting form. Retailers simply collect the tax and send it to the state taxing authority. All businesses serving as collection agents receive a fee for collection, and the states also receive a collection fee. The tax revenues from the states are then sent to the U.S. Treasury.


Now here's a challenging cut and paste of yours.  There will still be a need for a branch of the federal government for enforcement of your asinine tax proposal.  It's a federal tax...not a state tax.  It is the province of our federal sovereignty and not the states.  Your simplistic argument, if I can call it that, makes no sense except to one such as yourself.


You mean to say that the current system is dealt with by the rich and crooks in an honest way ? give me a fuking break .

the fair tax is much harder for these 2 groups to abuse.

You keep saying this but you never explain how.

once again , The FairTax reduces rather than increases the problem of tax evasion. The increased fairness, transparency, and legitimacy of the system induces more compliance. The roughly 90-percent reduction in filers enables tax administrators more narrowly and effectively to address noncompliance and increases the likelihood of tax evasion discovery. The relative simplicity of the FairTax promotes compliance. Businesses need answer only one question to determine the tax due: How much was sold to consumers? Finally, because tax rates decrease, tax evasion is less profitable; and because of the dramatic reduction in the number of tax filers, tax evaders are more easily monitored and caught under the FairTax system.


Wealthy people spend more money than other individuals. They buy expensive cars, big houses, and yachts. They buy filet mignon instead of hamburger, fine wine instead of beer, designer dresses, and expensive jewelry. The FairTax taxes them on these purchases. If, however, they use their money to build job-creating factories, finance research and development to create new products, or fund charitable activities (all of which help improve the standard of living of others), then those activities are not taxed.

How does the tax work for purchases if the items are not purchased from a US source?  How does it tax them if the wealthy relocate abroad while retaining a US source of income?

Your Fair Tax undermines US productivity in that respect.  As long as there's a tax, there will be tax avoidance and evasion.

Let’s look at a billionaire under the FairTax -- if he spends $10,000,000 dollars he pays a tax of $2,300,000 and gets a prebate of $4,697 (assuming he is married and has no children). His effective tax rate as a percent of spending is 22.95 percent.

Now, let’s look at a middle-income married couple with no children under the FairTax -- if they spend $50,000, they pay $6,803 net of their prebate for an effective tax rate of 13.6 percent. The effective tax rate increases as spending increases, but never exceeds 23 percent!
That's about the stupidest thing I've seen in some time.  You've really outdone yourself.  Do you really believe that a billionaire would subject his assets to the retarded, I mean regressive 23% tax?  No no.  These people view any tax as too much tax. 

Prebates...that's hilarious.  More welfare handouts to everyone.  Look, Ozark wants government paying everybody.

The poor see their taxes go up from 10% or 15% to 23% but there's some sort of welfare rebate check that the government will provide them.

And speaking of retarded, You mention this billionaire and spending 10,000,000.  How on god's green earth is that not a drastic reduction in tax revenue to the government?  You see no difference between taxing 36% of total eligible income or 23% of income spent.  The gov. will be severly underfunded. 

Especially with all the welfare payouts you advocate.
wrong again lib,
Under the FairTax Plan, poor people pay no net FairTax at all up to the poverty level! Every household receives a rebate that is equal to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, and wage earners are no longer subject to the most regressive and burdensome tax of all, the payroll tax. Those spending at twice the poverty level pay a tax of only 11.5 percent -- a rate much lower than the income and payroll tax burden they bear today.
Where's the money coming from.  Your song and dance numbers do not add up.  You live in a fantasy land with this CURE ALL FAIR TAX.

Wake up!

But then again, you're pushing bullshit b/c you believe bullshit.  Scrap the Code!  Scrap the IRS!

Your childish banter shows me a level of sophistication of thought approaching that of an excited addle-minded teenager.
lib, you are wrong as always,  Their are billions hidden in foreign accounts, that could be brought back into our economy, increasing revenue, and as stated earlier, it would allow a greater collection of tax money from those carrying out illegal transactions, since their income is hid from the income tax system but will be taxed when they spend it in a sales tax. Drug dealers, prostitutes, black market dealers, and bookies are examples of people who earn income illegally. Since these and others engaging in illegal transactions obviously don't want the government to know about their activities, the income generated won't be reported on income tax returns. Thus, none of that money is subject to tax. However, with a sales tax, it doesn't matter how money is earned, since the tax is collected immediately by the seller.
Here we go again. 

This guy starts out with "Wrong Lib" like it's some profound putdown (maybe in his mind it is, that's just sad) and then cuts and pastes some sloppy fantasyland bullshit he scarcely understands.

You got me shakin' in my boots little lady.

Camel Jockey

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16711
  • Mel Gibson and Bob Sly World Domination
Re: Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2007, 03:51:35 PM »
Jesus, it's not rocket science.  ::)

Such taxation would ruin our great free market economy and discourage competition. It's like that cock and bull idea that Dick Army or whoever came up with a while back.