Author Topic: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.  (Read 3392 times)

mightymouse72

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Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« on: January 07, 2008, 05:30:02 AM »
In Socialized Medicine, Everyone Is A Doctor

Health Reform: The British have found a way to shorten those long, annoying waits for care and lower the rising costs of their universal access system. They'll let patients take care of themselves.
The London Telegraph reported Tuesday that the British government has a "plan to save billions of pounds from the NHS budget." But it won't come without enormous pain.
"Instead of going to a hospital or consulting a doctor, patients will be encouraged to carry out 'self-care' as the Department of Health tries to meet Treasury targets to curb spending," the Telegraph explained.
So when is a universal health care system not actually universal? When Britain's 60-year-old National Health Service can no longer support the weight of its clamoring clientele.
Granted, there should be more self-treatment in developed nations. Emergency rooms and doctors' offices are often overcrowded with patients who aren't in need of urgent need but who go anyway because their insurance or government is paying. That type of open access to health care has led to overuse of the system.
The NHS, though, is hoping to cut down on more than frivolous visits. It's looking for patients with "arthritis, asthma and even heart failure" to treat themselves, the Telegraph said.
Some of the self-care that will be expected of patients includes the monitoring of heart activity, blood pressure and lung capacity using equipment that has been placed in the home.
Patients will be counted on to relate health information to doctors either by phone or computer link. To manage pain, they will administer their own drugs and other treatments.
Patients will also be asked to evaluate the significance of changes in their conditions as well as employ relaxation techniques that the government hopes will help them relieve their stress and avoid emergency room visits caused by panic.
Prime Minister Gordon Brown characterizes the policy changes as improvements that will allow patients to "play a far more active role in managing their own condition." The British Department of Health calls it an "exciting opportunity."
But what they're really saying is "our universal health care system is broken, and you're on your own."
And we ask yet again: Is this the sort of system we want in the U.S.?
The ugly facts will never dissuade those who want to hijack private health care in this country and turn it over to the government. They will continue to use inflated — and irrelevant — data on the uninsured, demagogue, embellish and in general shriek about the woes of U.S. health care, which we unapologetically say is the finest in the world.
But they can't do it alone. They need America's middle-of-the-roaders, and the more the average person learns about the hazards of the British and Canadian models, the less likely he or she will blindly go along with plans to nationalize private care.
A government system in which everyone gets "free" medical treatment might sound humane. But as Britain's NHS has shown, such a program will eventually be besieged with lengthy and sometimes deadly waiting times and overwhelming costs.
From examples across the Atlantic and north of the border we are learning that both the quality and quantity of health care will suffer when the nanny state gets involved. It's a lesson we can ill afford to ignore.

W

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2008, 06:25:21 AM »
In Socialized Medicine, Everyone Is A Doctor

Health Reform: The British have found a way to shorten those long, annoying waits for care and lower the rising costs of their universal access system. They'll let patients take care of themselves.
The London Telegraph reported Tuesday that the British government has a "plan to save billions of pounds from the NHS budget." But it won't come without enormous pain.
"Instead of going to a hospital or consulting a doctor, patients will be encouraged to carry out 'self-care' as the Department of Health tries to meet Treasury targets to curb spending," the Telegraph explained.
So when is a universal health care system not actually universal? When Britain's 60-year-old National Health Service can no longer support the weight of its clamoring clientele.
Granted, there should be more self-treatment in developed nations. Emergency rooms and doctors' offices are often overcrowded with patients who aren't in need of urgent need but who go anyway because their insurance or government is paying. That type of open access to health care has led to overuse of the system.
The NHS, though, is hoping to cut down on more than frivolous visits. It's looking for patients with "arthritis, asthma and even heart failure" to treat themselves, the Telegraph said.
Some of the self-care that will be expected of patients includes the monitoring of heart activity, blood pressure and lung capacity using equipment that has been placed in the home.
Patients will be counted on to relate health information to doctors either by phone or computer link. To manage pain, they will administer their own drugs and other treatments.
Patients will also be asked to evaluate the significance of changes in their conditions as well as employ relaxation techniques that the government hopes will help them relieve their stress and avoid emergency room visits caused by panic.
Prime Minister Gordon Brown characterizes the policy changes as improvements that will allow patients to "play a far more active role in managing their own condition." The British Department of Health calls it an "exciting opportunity."
But what they're really saying is "our universal health care system is broken, and you're on your own."
And we ask yet again: Is this the sort of system we want in the U.S.?
The ugly facts will never dissuade those who want to hijack private health care in this country and turn it over to the government. They will continue to use inflated — and irrelevant — data on the uninsured, demagogue, embellish and in general shriek about the woes of U.S. health care, which we unapologetically say is the finest in the world.
But they can't do it alone. They need America's middle-of-the-roaders, and the more the average person learns about the hazards of the British and Canadian models, the less likely he or she will blindly go along with plans to nationalize private care.
A government system in which everyone gets "free" medical treatment might sound humane. But as Britain's NHS has shown, such a program will eventually be besieged with lengthy and sometimes deadly waiting times and overwhelming costs.
From examples across the Atlantic and north of the border we are learning that both the quality and quantity of health care will suffer when the nanny state gets involved. It's a lesson we can ill afford to ignore.


MM72, while I respect your right to have an opinion, no matter how ill thought out, you really should step back, and take an objective look at the material you're using to bolster your case.

How do you expect any reasonable person to respond to that? It takes a supposed decision made in one country, and tries to apply it to a concept as a whole, and attempts to imply that is how it works in every country with universal healthcare.

This article talks about "examples from across the Atlantic and north of the border", but mentions no such example from north of the border, but expects the reader to apply this example to both jurisdictions. That's dishonest, deceptive, and devious, as much as when OBL was constantly mentioned in the same sentence as 911. Eventually 911 and OBL became synonymously linked in the minds of readers and listeners, when neither had anything to do with the other.

While I'm at it, I have to ask, if the example you cite is to be believed, what is so wrong with a patient monitoring their own blood pressure or lung capacity? If that were me, I'd love it. Who would want to have to travel to a hospital, doctor's office or clinic on a daily basis to have this done. If I needed daily monitoring of my blood pressure, or if I needed daily measures of improvements or declines in my lung capacity, ...I'd rather do it in the comfort and convenience of my own home. It's not like they're asking patients to prescribe or diagnose. Or would you prefer a system that dictates patients must attend daily to have their underwear changed. I don't see how this is any different from the daily monitoring of blood sugar & insulin levels that diabetics are required to perform on their own every day in America. Some things can and should be done by patients themselves.

What you've posted is a very feeble and impotent attempt to dissuade against universal healthcare.

It makes no argument whatsoever that a Democrat would be a bad president, or  Republican a good one.
w

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2008, 06:37:24 AM »
The majority of the American people stood back and watched in shock as GWB enjoyed wars, Katrina failures, torture camps, 4 million 'lost' emails, Justice Dept favortism, and a score of other issues.

MM, 75% of America is just sick of it.

Spend your days using non-applicable arguments to bash 'the libs'.

But the fact of the matter is that Americans are just sick of the bullshit, and aren't about to elect another man who promises 4 years of the same bullshit.  Dems aren't perfect, but after 7 years of warring and bullying the wolrd, the cyucle does call for balance.

Of course, there will always be far left and far right sheep who think their party should rule every time.  That's super.  But in reality, it alternates for a reason.

mightymouse72

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2008, 06:59:04 AM »
This article talks about "examples from across the Atlantic and north of the border", but mentions no such example from north of the border, but expects the reader to apply this example to both jurisdictions. That's dishonest, deceptive, and devious, as much as when OBL was constantly mentioned in the same sentence as 911. Eventually 911 and OBL became synonymously linked in the minds of readers and listeners, when neither had anything to do with the other.






http://www.thenewstribune.com/opinion/insight/story/224748.html
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article.jsp?content=20080102_101452_5180


I should ignore your feeble attempt to align the universal healthcare debate in this country with 9/11 and OBL but since he admitted to it, I won't.   ::)
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mightymouse72

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2008, 07:19:59 AM »
What you've posted is a very feeble and impotent attempt to dissuade against universal healthcare.

It makes no argument whatsoever that a Democrat would be a bad president, or  Republican a good one.


Find me a arguement that favors universal healthcare.  Although you made a very wordy post that states your view that you are in favor of UHC, you failed to show any favorable mentions on why it is so wonderful.

The USA has probably the best in the world.  Now I'm sure the PHD's and Road Scholars on the 'Getbig' boards will try to prove me wrong.  Does it have problems??  Of course.  Does it need fine tuning??  Of course.  Does the federal government need to control our health care??  I'll let 240 answer for me--The majority of the American people stood back and watched in shock as GWB enjoyed wars, Katrina failures, torture camps, 4 million 'lost' emails, Justice Dept favortism, and a score of other issues.[/i]

If the govt' is so lax in the above issues, why would I want them paying for my operation??

And the fine citizens of the US know how the welfare program is working out.  No one is abusing that. ::)

W

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2008, 07:23:34 AM »

From examples across the Atlantic and north of the border we are learning that both the quality and quantity of health care will suffer when the nanny state gets involved. It's a lesson we can ill afford to ignore.



We have universal health care in Sweden, and nothing of this is familiar, to be honest?  ???

Isn't it possible that it is the UK system that may have problems, and that universal health care works just fine elsewhere?

JMO.

And give me an example of problems up in Canada.
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mightymouse72

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2008, 07:25:17 AM »
We have universal health care in Sweden, and nothing of this is familiar, to be honest?  ???

Isn't it possible that it is the UK system that may have problems, and that universal health care works just fine elsewhere?

JMO.

And give me an example of problems up in Canada.

I posted 2 links above.
W

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2008, 07:39:18 AM »
I love these "My aunt got sick in Yellowknife and had to wait for a bed so that means Canadian Healthcare sucks cause she said so" news stories.  ::)

There are pros and cons to both private and universal healthcare systems.  The US government spends twice as much on healthcare, people who can't afford it have to rely on church charity collections or the like, or just plain don't get care, have to deal with managed care bullshit, blah blah ad infinitum, whereas Canadians often find themselves waiting for longer periods when they need non-emergency surgeries, etc.  They also have lower infant mortality rates and longer life expectancies, attributed to their health care system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2008, 07:40:24 AM »

http://www.thenewstribune.com/opinion/insight/story/224748.html
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article.jsp?content=20080102_101452_5180

Much better. :)

Although, I don't suppose you would consider it relevant that the examples you've now shown took place in BC?

I understand BC is plagued by problems. It is not like that throughout Canada. If someone isn't interested in using universal healthcare, they're free to use private healthcare. Also too, I must add, that in Canada, universal healthcare is administered on a provincial level, so things will vary from province to province. Just as education in various jurisdictions in the US varies from county to county, and school district to school district. If one is not interested in the public school system, they are more than welcome to use a private school. Just as the horrendous smog in LA is not indicative of the air quality in Nebraska.


Quote
I should ignore your feeble attempt to align the universal healthcare debate in this country with 9/11 and OBL but since he admitted to it, I won't.   ::)

I wasn't attempting to link the two, ...simply pointing out similarities in the MO
w

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2008, 07:42:24 AM »
Find me a arguement that favors universal healthcare.  Although you made a very wordy post that states your view that you are in favor of UHC, you failed to show any favorable mentions on why it is so wonderful.
The USA has probably the best in the world.  Now I'm sure the PHD's and Road Scholars on the 'Getbig' boards will try to prove me wrong.  Does it have problems??  Of course.  Does it need fine tuning??  Of course.  Does the federal government need to control our health care??  I'll let 240 answer for me--The majority of the American people stood back and watched in shock as GWB enjoyed wars, Katrina failures, torture camps, 4 million 'lost' emails, Justice Dept favortism, and a score of other issues.[/i]
If the govt' is so lax in the above issues, why would I want them paying for my operation??
And the fine citizens of the US know how the welfare program is working out.  No one is abusing that. ::)

Guess what?

Healthcare is #3 or 4 on the issues that most people care about.

For your average voter, age 18 to 45, for example...
They can't worry about treatment for cancer of the ass they might get in 1, 5, or 25 years.
They CAN worry about their kid taking IED attacks in Iraq.  They CAN worry about their 401k and retirement collapsing.  They CAN worry about social security not being there.

Yes, it's a valid issue.  But let's face it, both dems and repubs are in the pockets of the companies.  That won't change, dude.  1/6 of America is uninsiured.  That doesn't affect you, so you don't care.  But suppose things change and you end up injured without insurance.  I know, you believe it'll never happen.  But if the dollar collapses, you watch how fast military insurance retirement benefits get cinched.  

So anyway, you make good points on this one, as do the socialized medicine crowd.  My point is that none of that will matter if the dollar dies, get it?  None of it matters if we start a 3rd war and piss off russia into another cold war.

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2008, 07:43:18 AM »
I posted 2 links above.

Thanks.

Good read.

Interestingly, it seems like US health care is even more expensive:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0505/p02s01-uspo.html
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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2008, 07:44:37 AM »
I have a Q - who has a longer life expectancy - Americans or Canadians?

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2008, 07:50:44 AM »
I have a Q - who has a longer life expectancy - Americans or Canadians?

Canadians.

mightymouse72

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2008, 07:57:31 AM »
Canadians.

Although, I am willing to bet, it's not due to their health care.  We Americans loooove to eat.  In other words, our lifestyle is not what you would label healthy.
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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2008, 07:59:37 AM »
Although, I am willing to bet, it's not due to their health care.  We Americans loooove to eat.  In other words, our lifestyle is not what you would label healthy.

I agree with this.  Heart disease and cancer, probably our two biggest killers, are lifestyle--not healthcare--related. 

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 08:08:03 AM »
Although, I am willing to bet, it's not due to their health care.  We Americans loooove to eat.  In other words, our lifestyle is not what you would label healthy.

Yeah, you do looooove to eat (not that Canadians are too far behind in that regard) ... but actually Canadians do have a better llfe expectancy because of their healthcare.  That system is preventative, so more emphasis is placed on keeping people healthy, whereas the US subscribes to a fix it when it's broke kind of philosophy. That's why health care costs so much less in Canada. Canadians actually have a terrible survival rate for heart attack victims. Also, because health care is there for infants born into poverty ... the mortality rate is lower too.  Not saying it's a perfect system, but having lived under both... it's far from being this horrible, communist plot to control people.  There's plenty wrong the US system too.  I'd say 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.  Some people do find it morally reprehensible to not provide people with basic healthcare though.

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2008, 08:13:16 AM »
Whatever.    ::)


I have lots of family in Canada and have had personal experience with Universal Health care in England.

No complaints.

No matter what happens you can go on the net and find things or stories of Universal health care problems.  No system is perfect or trouble free.   

I wonder if political alignment clouds objective vision or makes a person easy pickings for idealistic manipulations on issues. 

Right now, our health system is a joke, it ranks low, it's over priced and manipulated by pharm companies.   Getting Health insurance is more complex, more difficult, and costs so much than even a few years ago.

Something does need to be done.  However i fear, universal health care in the US will be poorly managed and border-line corrupt. 



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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2008, 08:19:36 AM »
But they can't do it alone. They need America's middle-of-the-roaders, and the more the average person learns about the hazards of the British and Canadian models, the less likely he or she will blindly go along with plans to nationalize private care.
A government system in which everyone gets "free" medical treatment might sound humane. But as Britain's NHS has shown, such a program will eventually be besieged with lengthy and sometimes deadly waiting times and overwhelming costs.
From examples across the Atlantic and north of the border we are learning that both the quality and quantity of health care will suffer when the nanny state gets involved. It's a lesson we can ill afford to ignore.

First up, no one is going to succeed in successfully de-privatizing health care. 

The best of all worlds is a blended system, where all Americans are invited to join a group plan.

The real issue is finding a way to carve into those huge profit margins taken by America's insurance conglomerates. 

Solve that dilemma, and the solution will be within reach.

Look, if they can do it in California (Healthy Families), then it can definitely be done nationwide. 

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2008, 08:23:06 AM »

The best of all worlds is a blended system, where all Americans are invited to join a group plan.

The real issue is finding a way to carve into those huge profit margins taken by America's insurance conglomerates. 

You've just summed up 'Universal Health Care'.  :)
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mightymouse72

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2008, 09:21:36 AM »
So, what I'm reading is it's ok for yours, my taxes to pay for someone else's health care??  No thanks, not for me.  There's enough gov't entitlements coming out of my paycheck.

 



Look, if they can do it in California (Healthy Families), then it can definitely be done nationwide. 

Tre, explain your above comment. 
W

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2008, 09:23:53 AM »
So, what I'm reading is it's ok for yours, my taxes to pay for someone else's health care??  No thanks, not for me.  There's enough gov't entitlements coming out of my paycheck.



Good point.

I guess I'd rather my taxes help pay for mine and someone else's health care instead of lining the pockets of pharm and insurnace companies.


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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2008, 09:28:42 AM »
Keep ur socialist bullshit in Canada..I'm not paying more money to support those who leach off of our system. We now have states that will cover illiegal aliens. So what i will have to pay for anybody who manages to set foot in the US. A blended system where insurance is affordable would be great and could work but every douche bag with a lawyer will have to stop sueing or we'll get nowhere.
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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2008, 09:28:58 AM »
I realize this is probably impossible or at least very unlikely, but i don;t think there would be any need to raise taxes with some sort of semi universal blended health care IF we could get rid of this bloated bureaucracy and smartly trim excess wasteful expenditures. 

But putting the dems in office will only grow what's already bloated.

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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2008, 09:32:23 AM »
Tort reform and caps on damages would be very helpful and get the ball rolling..but i'm not sure how Edwards would feed his family.
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Re: Reason #1 not to have ANY of the democrats as president.
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2008, 09:33:44 AM »
I realize this is probably impossible or at least very unlikely, but i don;t think there would be any need to raise taxes with some sort of semi universal blended health care IF we could get rid of this bloated bureaucracy and smartly trim excess wasteful expenditures. 

But putting the dems in office will only grow what's already bloated.

Have you seen SICKO by Michael Moore?

Aside from the opinoin part, there is some cold hard numbers.  What each major politician has received in campaign donations from big medicine, and how their voting changed afterwards.  How Nixon was told about how the system would screw 1/6 of the population (you hear the recording!), and he laughed, then gav a speech the next day talking about how it would help everyone.  Then you see exactly when HILARY was bought off in early 90s and droppde her own campaign.

Both sides are very much bought off.  There will be no change to healthcare.