Author Topic: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists  (Read 9147 times)

columbusdude82

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US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« on: January 09, 2008, 06:42:49 AM »
A day after ordained Baptist minister Mike Huckabee finished first in the opening round to choose a Republican candidate for the White House, scientists warned Americans against electing a leader who doubts evolution.

"The logic that convinces us that evolution is a fact is the same logic we use to say smoking is hazardous to your health or we have serious energy policy issues because of global warming," University of Michigan professor Gilbert Omenn told reporters at the launch of a book on evolution by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS).

"I would worry that a president who didn't believe in the evolution arguments wouldn't believe in those other arguments either. This is a way of leading our country to ruin," added Omenn, who was part of a panel of experts at the launch of "Science, Evolution and Creationism."

Former Arkansas governor Huckabee said in a debate in May that he did not believe in evolution.

A poll conducted last year showed that 53 percent of Americans do believe that humans developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life -- the theory of evolution -- while 47 percent do not.

Some of those polled said they believed in both evolution and the opposing theory of creationism -- the belief that God created mankind at a single point in time.

The evolution versus creationism debate has crept into American schools and politics, where it is mainly conservative Republicans who espouse the non-scientific belief.

In 2004, a Pennsylvania school district found itself at the center of a national storm after its education board voted to require that a statement on creationism be read to students when they began learning about evolution in science class.

The school board was ousted the following year.

"Science, Evolution and Creationism" targets the general public and teachers, and presents in simple terms the current scientific understanding of evolution and the importance of teaching it in the science classroom.

A day after his win in Iowa, Huckabee toned down his anti-evolution stance, saying in a television interview that the question of whether to teach creationism in schools was "not an issue for our president."

US President George W. Bush has said he supports teaching "intelligent design" creationism to American students, to present youngsters with differing schools of thought.

Intelligent design is a theory advocated by conservative Christian groups and some scientists in the United States, which says that complex biological organisms cannot be explained by evolutionary chance alone and must be the work of an intelligent designer -- namely God.

Omenn and the other panel members at the book launch said categorically that creationism should be banned from science classrooms
.

"Scientific inquiry is not about accepting on faith a statement or scriptural passage. It's about exploring nature, so there really is not any place in the science classroom for creationism or intelligent design creationism," said Omenn.

"We don't teach astrology as an alternative to astronomy, or witchcraft as an alternative to medicine," said Francisco Ayala, a professor of biological sciences at the University of California, Irvine.

"We must understand the difference between what is and is not science. We must not teach creationism as an alternative to evolution," he said.

"Holding deep religious beliefs is not incompatible with believing in evolution," Omenn said.

"But that's different to saying the two can be taught together in science class, because religion and science are two different ways of knowing about the world. They might not be incompatible but they don't overlap each other's spheres.

"Science class should not contain religious attitudes," he added.

mightymouse72

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 08:56:02 AM »
A day after his win in Iowa, Huckabee toned down his anti-evolution stance, saying in a television interview that the question of whether to teach creationism in schools was "not an issue for our president."




i would say the secular liberal who wrote this IS making it an issue for the president.  besides, huck never said he didn't want evolution taught in schools, just that he didn't believe in it. 

the problem is not that it's being taught, it's that alot of universities and schools are teaching it as fact. 
W

columbusdude82

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 10:21:11 AM »

i would say the secular liberal who wrote this IS making it an issue for the president.  besides, huck never said he didn't want evolution taught in schools, just that he didn't believe in it. 

That's like saying he doesn't "believe in" gravity... It means he is practically scientifically illiterate.

Quote
the problem is not that it's being taught, it's that alot of universities and schools are teaching it as fact. 

Universities and schools tend to do that kind of thing, teaching facts... Damn those satanic facts and their constant assault on God's word!!!



mightymouse72

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 11:12:06 AM »
That's like saying he doesn't "believe in" gravity... It means he is practically scientifically illiterate.

Universities and schools tend to do that kind of thing, teaching facts... Damn those satanic facts and their constant assault on God's word!!!




therein lies the problem, it's not fact.  it's theory.
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columbusdude82

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 11:34:49 AM »
therein lies the problem, it's not fact.  it's theory.

It's fact. Sorry to have to break it to you. It's as much fact as the "theory" of gravity, or electromagnetic "theory"...

Decker

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 11:48:38 AM »
Many people learned in elementary school that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law. Scientists do not use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&catID=2

rockyfortune

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 11:49:23 AM »
It's fact. Sorry to have to break it to you. It's as much fact as the "theory" of gravity, or electromagnetic "theory"...



shouldn't you be crying in you beer after OSU was bitchslapped two years in a row?
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mightymouse72

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 11:53:13 AM »
It's fact. Sorry to have to break it to you. It's as much fact as the "theory" of gravity, or electromagnetic "theory"...

can you prove it's a fact?   no, you can't.  all you can do is post a bunch of links, or quote what some scientists said.
but you, columbusdude82, cannot prove evolution is a fact.  you decide to put your faith in a man that says we evolved from goo, a tadpole, a monkey or whatever it is you believe, 500 zillion years ago.
 
i choose not to put my faith in man.   
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rockyfortune

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 11:55:24 AM »
I'm still wondering why it's so horrible if a future president rejects or accepts natural selection?  Sure, if Bush was an atheist he may not have said that god told him to invade iraq..but i'm sure he would have come up with another reason other than it being some christian crusade on his part.  I'm not worried about the president's religious convictions just how he's going to spend tax dollars, figure out social security, etc...religion, no matter what you believe, doesn't influence that...
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loco

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 12:47:05 PM »
How many U.S. presidents didn't believe that God created humans in their present form?  Yet the US wasn't doomed.

Hitler on the other hand, not only embraced Darwin's theory of evolution, but was actually motivated by it to commit atrocities and reduce Germany and other European countries to ruins.

“Hitler believed in struggle as a Darwinian principle of human life that forced every people to try to dominate all others; without struggle they would rot and perish … . Even in his own defeat in April 1945, Hitler expressed his faith in the survival of the stronger and declared the Slavic peoples to have proven themselves the stronger.” 
Peter Hoffman, Hitler’s Personal Security (Oxford, UK: Pergamon Press, 1979), p. 264.

“To see evolutionary measures and tribal morality being applied vigorously to the affairs of a great modern nation, we must turn again to Germany of 1942. We see Hitler devoutly convinced that evolution produces the only real basis for a national policy … . The means he adopted to secure the destiny of his race and people were organized slaughter, which has drenched Europe in blood … . Such conduct is highly immoral as measured by every scale of ethics, yet Germany justifies it; it is consonant with tribal or evolutionary morality. Germany has reverted to the tribal past, and is demonstrating to the world, in their naked ferocity, the methods of evolution.”
Sir Arthur Keith, Evolution and Ethics (New York: Putman, 1947), p. 28.

columbusdude82

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 02:24:28 PM »
mightymouse, I'm sorry you have not had the benefit of a scientific education.

Rocky, re-read the first part of the article to get your answer.

loco, you have posted these lies before, and I have corrected you. Yours is a lame attempt at guilt by association: taint the central core of biology with Nazi eugenics.

It exposes your ignorance of what "evolution" is. If only you had taken the time to learn what it was about, you'd know that it has nothing to do with "survival of the fittest" people, or the "fittest" nation, or the "fittest" individual. It is merely the non-random differential survival of self-replicating genes.

Natural selection occurs when some genes make it into the bodies of individuals who become ancestors, while other genes do not. How can something so simple be so misunderstood? 

MMC78

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 09:26:14 PM »
can you prove it's a fact?   no, you can't.  all you can do is post a bunch of links, or quote what some scientists said.
but you, columbusdude82, cannot prove evolution is a fact.  you decide to put your faith in a man that says we evolved from goo, a tadpole, a monkey or whatever it is you believe, 500 zillion years ago.
 
i choose not to put my faith in man.   

You're a shining datapoint in the studies that demonstrate an inverse correlation between IQ and religiosity.

In your very limited understanding of the English language you are equating the common definition of theory with the scientific definition of theory.  Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact, it really happened.  The evidence is abundant.  The basis for all of biology and large parts of modern medicine is based on it.

Whereas you accuse me of placing faith in a 'man' (which I do not, faith is no part of science), you place your faith in an misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent invisible sky god.

If you actually believe in creationism after being presented with the facts surrounding evolution, and you are not in fact crazy, then you are a disgrace to this species and should consider offing yourself for the benefit of the rest of us.



Cy Tolliver

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 11:00:55 PM »
You guys might come from apes.  I dont.
TEAM LAURA LEE!

MCWAY

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2008, 12:04:53 AM »

i would say the secular liberal who wrote this IS making it an issue for the president.  besides, huck never said he didn't want evolution taught in schools, just that he didn't believe in it. 

My sentiments exactly! A bigger concern is that too many kids can't even SPELL evolution, much less worry about their being taught such (whether they actually believe it or not).


the problem is not that it's being taught, it's that alot of universities and schools are teaching it as fact. 

What you're seeing is a new tactic by paranoid atheists and naturalistic scientists. Now, you have to actually BELIEVE in evolution. Some teachers have even considered not awarding Ph.Ds to scientists, if they don't buy the "goo-to-you-by-way-of-the-zoo" thing (hook, line, and sinker).

In another thread it was mentioned that someone was awarded a Ph.D in a scientific field (I believe it was paleontology), despite protests from some of the members of the faculty, because he was a creationist. As it turns out, the protests came not from the faculty of the school itself (who knew of his creationist views from the get-go), but from folks outside the university.





columbusdude82

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 02:21:52 AM »
Which thread was that, McWay?

mightymouse72

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2008, 03:55:28 AM »
You're a shining datapoint in the studies that demonstrate an inverse correlation between IQ and religiosity.

In your very limited understanding of the English language you are equating the common definition of theory with the scientific definition of theory.  Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact, it really happened.  The evidence is abundant.  The basis for all of biology and large parts of modern medicine is based on it.

Whereas you accuse me of placing faith in a 'man' (which I do not, faith is no part of science), you place your faith in an misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent invisible sky god.

If you actually believe in creationism after being presented with the facts surrounding evolution, and you are not in fact crazy, then you are a disgrace to this species and should consider offing yourself for the benefit of the rest of us.





you're very good at using a thesaurus but you have no idea what the word 'faith' means.  look it up moron. 

i have asked columbus dude to prove to me evolution is fact, he didn't do anything but say i had no scientific education.  good one, i'm convinced.

now i'm calling you out.   prove to me evolution is fact.  calling my God names is not stating your point.  it just shows your hatred, ignorance and all out dumbness on the subject. now stop it. 

so, go ahead and prove it. 
W

mightymouse72

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 03:57:47 AM »
You guys might come from apes.  I dont.

HA!!  good one, short, sweet and to the point.

BTW, i love your avatar
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columbusdude82

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 04:00:58 AM »
HA!!  good one, short, sweet and to the point.

BTW, i love your avatar

What you don't seem to grasp is that we ARE apes.

We are a species of African Apes.

As for your previous post, I made another thread so that this one won't get too cluttered. Join me there :)

rockyfortune

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 04:34:59 AM »
mightymouse, I'm sorry you have not had the benefit of a scientific education.

Rocky, re-read the first part of the article to get your answer.

loco, you have posted these lies before, and I have corrected you. Yours is a lame attempt at guilt by association: taint the central core of biology with Nazi eugenics.

It exposes your ignorance of what "evolution" is. If only you had taken the time to learn what it was about, you'd know that it has nothing to do with "survival of the fittest" people, or the "fittest" nation, or the "fittest" individual. It is merely the non-random differential survival of self-replicating genes.

Natural selection occurs when some genes make it into the bodies of individuals who become ancestors, while other genes do not. How can something so simple be so misunderstood? 


I did read it..and re-read...and all the professor is doing is making inferences...just because one has a belief that he did or did not come from apes does not mean he rejects all other scientific facts and theories...granted a guy like huckabee would not believe in natural selection---but i'm sure he agrees that certain scientific facts are just that.  You can't paint all critics of natural selection with such a broad brush.
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rockyfortune

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2008, 04:44:06 AM »
I also disagree with the part about global warming in this statement...

"The logic that convinces us that evolution is a fact is the same logic we use to say smoking is hazardous to your health or we have serious energy policy issues because of global warming," University of Michigan professor Gilbert Omenn told reporters at the launch of a book on evolution by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS).


Since when is global warming a fact? There are so called experts on both sides of this argument..with many experts taking the opposing viewpoint that global warming is a fraud and that the earth is going through a naturally occuring cycle. 
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columbusdude82

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2008, 04:58:52 AM »
rocky, I hope you stick around with us here on this board :)

As for your post on global warming, let's not go there. The point of this thread is not that something is true or not, it's that electing a president with a disregard for science and reason and scientifically-informed policy is bad for the country. It is an indication that he is not a critical thinker.

The US president sets the tone on the agenda of scientific projects that are critical for all mankind, not least of which are space exploration, fighting HIV, and the environment.

rockyfortune

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2008, 05:14:03 AM »
rocky, I hope you stick around with us here on this board :)

As for your post on global warming, let's not go there. The point of this thread is not that something is true or not, it's that electing a president with a disregard for science and reason and scientifically-informed policy is bad for the country. It is an indication that he is not a critical thinker.

The US president sets the tone on the agenda of scientific projects that are critical for all mankind, not least of which are space exploration, fighting HIV, and the environment.


Something tells me GW Bush is not much of a critical thinker...well, at least in the last 7 years he hasn't been. 

These guys are first and foremost politicians..they know how far to push agendas and when to back off especially when it comes to separating a religious issue with politics...

I don't think creationism or darwinism should be pushed as the only true origin of man...but I do think both should be taught---and let the student decide what he or she chooses to believe. 
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columbusdude82

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2008, 05:21:47 AM »

I don't think creationism or darwinism should be pushed as the only true origin of man...but I do think both should be taught---and let the student decide what he or she chooses to believe. 

Do you propose teaching them both in science class? And if so, which creationism do you propose be taught?

Young Earth Creationism? Old Earth Creationism? Intelligent Design? These and many more are just the Christian creationisms.

Under the constitution, the US government cannot favor any one religion, so the curriculum would also have to include Hindu creation myths, Islamic creation myths, and the creation myth of every Native American tribe.

Moreover, if some people announce that they believe that the world was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and that they worship Him (they call themselves 'pastafarians'), then the curriculum is also going to have to include Flying Spaghetti Monster creationism.

If you allow one, you have to allow them all.

After all this, when will science teachers get to teach anything else?

rockyfortune

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2008, 05:42:52 AM »
Do you propose teaching them both in science class? And if so, which creationism do you propose be taught?

Young Earth Creationism? Old Earth Creationism? Intelligent Design? These and many more are just the Christian creationisms.

Under the constitution, the US government cannot favor any one religion, so the curriculum would also have to include Hindu creation myths, Islamic creation myths, and the creation myth of every Native American tribe.

Moreover, if some people announce that they believe that the world was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and that they worship Him (they call themselves 'pastafarians'), then the curriculum is also going to have to include Flying Spaghetti Monster creationism.

If you allow one, you have to allow them all.

After all this, when will science teachers get to teach anything else?




i'd include as part of science curriculum...but i think i'd leave it up to school boards to decide which creationism/darwinism/spaghetti monster/etc...i'd also be for leaving it out completely--only because as you said if you allow one, you allow them all--so i think the inverse should be debated. 
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columbusdude82

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Re: US 'doomed' if creationist president elected: scientists
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2008, 06:02:27 AM »
rocky fortune, in deciding which, if any, creationism should be taught in the curriculum, which factor do you think should be the deciding factor?

Is it the evidence that supports that particular creationism? The number of publications in peer-reviewed scientific that support it? Or what?

I have searched far and wide for a pro-creationism scientific journal article, and have come up empty. I even put it to my creationist friends on here, and so far they have not answered that challenge.