Free American hero Marine Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fury]

Perhaps his parents let him play with mercury as a wee pup.

hahaha, look at it come back together again! Tastes great to boot!!!!

[tonymctones]

What choice would you guys prefer:

1. Live in horrible conditions and possibly starve and die.
2. Live in horrible conditions and possibly starve and die but have the choice to work in a factory in horrible conditions, but at least make something.

You guys fail to realize that people who work in sweatshops are not being forced to work there by cattle prod - they have the choice to not work or work, and they choose work.  Don't you have any respect for their right to make that decision.

So you guys advocate removing sweatshops, and stripping poor people of their choice have some employment over no employment?

lol bro i dont ever want to hear your bleeding heart bullshit ever again about the civilian causalties in iraq...they have the choice to live there or move so STFU you jackass, do us all a favor and off yourself

[Michaeloz]

Matt C you are truly out of touch with what goes on in the real world. When it comes to China I'm speaking from experience you have no idea what your talking about.  I live this everyday day here.

[Matt C]

"Prefer" is a terrible choice of words and is just you trying to spin your theory. I would say it's more like they have no choice and have to settle for whatever they can get, thus they end up working in a sweatshop.

Whether or not I would take them away if I had the power doesn't change the fact that it's basically slave labor. With China and it being already over-populated, there are always going to be people working in situations like that. Doesn't make it right, nor does it mean they "prefer" it. Equating death to a sweatshop job is a terrible argument.



Are you saying that you would take death over a sweatshop job?

No, I would work in a sweatshop rather than die.  I would appreciate if you just answer my questions before going on a moral tirade about how wrong my posts are.  My point of asking you these concise questions is to show you the flaws in your reasoning.  Simply answer the question: If you had the choice to either die or work in a sweatshop, which would you choose?

[james_hetfield]

Im guessing you never heard of India. Couse down there kids are kidnapped or sold by the parents to these sweat shops. It works the same as the child sex slaves in china.

[Matt C]

Again...

Simply answer the question: If you had the choice to either die or work in a sweatshop, which would you choose?

[tu_holmes]

No, I would work in a sweatshop rather than die.  I would appreciate if you just answer my questions before going on a moral tirade about how wrong my posts are.  My point of asking you these concise questions is to show you the flaws in your reasoning.  Simply answer the question: If you had the choice to either die or work in a sweatshop, which would you choose?

How about I ask you a question... would you rather bomb another country, or be bombed?

[Matt C]

How about I ask you a question... would you rather bomb another country, or be bombed?

Obviously what benefits me is bombing another country...but that doesn't make the action morally right.  It would serve my self interests but that isn't enough to make it a moral action.

[headhuntersix]

If that country killed ur citizens or harbored those who did..or had a great potential in the future?...Morals don't ever enter into foreign policy..political and financial gain....stategic best interests only.

[tu_holmes]

Obviously what benefits me is bombing another country...but that doesn't make the action morally right.  It would serve my self interests but that isn't enough to make it a moral action.

Sure it does...

There are lots of definition of "Moral". Personally, I believe that saving the lives of my family is much more moral than allowing an outside entity to harm them... Even if it means I have to bomb the shit of them.

[Matt C]

Sure it does...

There are lots of definition of "Moral". Personally, I believe that saving the lives of my family is much more moral than allowing an outside entity to harm them... Even if it means I have to bomb the shit of them.

No one here needs to ask me about what my moral framework is.  It is a consistent framework and is all covered here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

[Bindare_Dundat]

Frank sucks cocks.

[tu_holmes]

No one here needs to ask me about what my moral framework is.  It is a consistent framework and is all covered here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Your morals are defined by a political organization?

That sounds quite sad.

[youandme]

No one here needs to ask me about what my moral framework is.  It is a consistent framework and is all covered here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Political philosophy is not moral actions, simply rhetoric.

[tonymctones]

No, I would work in a sweatshop rather than die.  I would appreciate if you just answer my questions before going on a moral tirade about how wrong my posts are.  My point of asking you these concise questions is to show you the flaws in your reasoning.  Simply answer the question: If you had the choice to either die or work in a sweatshop, which would you choose?

why should he answer yours you never answered mine
"some of these people may want the sweatshops but thats b/c of a lack of options thats like saying the civilians in iraq are at fault for all the collateral damage b/c they dont leave their homes and go live in tents in the desert, do you agree with this?"
HYPOCRITE

[24KT]

By the way, what exactly does a Canadian in the "military" actually do considering that Canadians don't believe in guns, war, self-defense or autonomy?

{blink} {blink} Do you mean apart from saving the lives of American soldiers? 

Lying low beside the rifle, his stomach touching the ground, Cpl. Rob Furlong concentrated hard on his breathing. In, out. In, out. In, out. Deep, but not too deep. Slow, but not too slow. The tiniest twitch -- a heavy exhale, perhaps, or a breath held one second too long -- could jerk his weapon ever so slightly, turning a sure hit into a narrow miss. In the sniping world, where one shot should always equal one kill, steady breathing is just as crucial as steady aim.

On that March afternoon in 2002, Cpl. Furlong squinted through the scope of his McMillan Tac-50, a sleek bolt-action rifle almost as long as he is. In his crosshairs were three men, each lugging weapons toward an al-Qaeda mortar nest high in the mountains of eastern Afghanistan. Master Cpl. Tim McMeekin, hunkered behind his fellow sniper, saw the same trio through the lens of his Vector, a binocular-like device that uses a laser to pinpoint targets thousands of metres away. Speaking quietly, both soldiers agreed on the obvious: take out the biggest threat first, in this case the man in the middle carrying the RPK machine gun. According to the Vector, he was exactly 2,430 m away -- nearly 2 1/2 kilometres.

A Newfoundland boy with pale blue eyes and a chiselled frame, Furlong adjusted the elevation knob on his scope, the barrel of his gun pointing higher and higher with each turn. He knew the routine, had practised it a thousand times back at the base in Edmonton. The farther away the target, the higher the rifle should point. Wind blowing to the left? Aim slightly right. Most snipers will tell you it's not much different than a golfer and his caddie lining up a long putt. Calculation. Instinct. And a little bit of luck. "You can teach a certain amount of it," Furlong says. "But there is a large percentage that you must have naturally. A good shooter is born. You can't teach someone to be a good shot if they don't naturally have it."

The 26-year-old stared through the scope, his left finger tickling the trigger. In, out. In, out. Behind him, McMeekin gazed through his Vector, reconfirming the precise distance one last time. "Stand by," Furlong said.

The first shot missed. A second round missed too, but not by much. It pierced the man's backpack. "They had no fear," Furlong recalls of his target. "They didn't run. I guess they've just been engaged so many times." He immediately reloaded the chamber and lined up his rifle for a third try, checking to make sure his grip was flawless. Furlong knew exactly why that second shot missed; instead of following a perfectly straight line, he had squeezed the trigger a tiny smidgen to one side. Even a fraction of a millimetre can make a huge difference on the other end -- in this case, the difference between a man's knapsack and his heart.

"Stand by," Furlong said again. Another loud pop echoed through the valley, sending a .50-calibre shell -- rocket-shaped, almost as long as a beer bottle -- slicing through the Afghan sky. Four seconds later, it tore into the man's torso, ripping apart his insides.

By that point, Rob Furlong, Tim McMeekin and three other Canadian sharpshooters -- Graham Ragsdale, Arron Perry and Dennis Eason -- had spent nearly a week in the rugged terrain of Afghanistan's Shahikot Valley, reaching out and touching the enemy from distances even they had never trained for. But that shot was something special. Rob Furlong had just killed another human being from 2,430 m, the rough equivalent of standing at Toronto's CN Tower and hitting a target near Bloor Street. It was -- and still is -- the longest-ever recorded kill by a sniper in combat, surpassing the mark of 2,250 m set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock during the Vietnam War.

It should have been a moment of pride for the Canadian army. Five of its most talented snipers -- men trained to kill without remorse, then turn around and kill again -- did exactly that. They destroyed al-Qaeda firing positions, saved American lives and tallied a body count unmatched by any Canadian soldier of their generation. U.S. commanders who served alongside the snipers nominated all five for the coveted Bronze Star medal.

"Thank God the Canadians were there," is how one American soldier put it.

[24KT]

What choice would you guys prefer:

1. Live in horrible conditions and possibly starve and die.
2. Live in horrible conditions and possibly starve and die but have the choice to work in a factory in horrible conditions, but at least make something.

You guys fail to realize that people who work in sweatshops are not being forced to work there by cattle prod - they have the choice to not work or work, and they choose work.  Don't you have any respect for their right to make that decision.

So you guys advocate removing sweatshops, and stripping poor people of their choice have some employment over no employment?

Matt, I think I understand where you're coming from on this. Sometimes people are required to choose choices they shouldn't have to, but in lieu of choosing that choice, ...what is the alternative? It can sometimes make the undesireable choice appear very desireable.

One thing I'd like to point out though, ...in some areas, cattle prods are indeed used to force workers to work.
In some parts (including territories of "the so-called" free world) slave labour is indeed used to manufacture goods, with the complicity of government authorities who turn a blind eye. Foreign workers unable to get employment at home, are often recruited with lies, and promises of lucrative salaries, only to have their passports taken away from them upon arrival, and them being forced to work til they drop. 

I've heard about some men who were supposed to be going to one country, ...ending up as involuntary workers in Iraq as part of the "reconstruction effort"

ps: This doesn't only occur in 3^rd world countries.
Neither Canada nor the USA are immune to this plague.

[tonymctones]

Matt, I think I understand where you're coming from on this. Sometimes people are required to choose choices they shouldn't have to, but in lieu of choosing that choice, ...what is the alternative? It can sometimes make the undesireable choice appear very desireable.

One thing I'd like to point out though, ...in some areas, cattle prods are indeed used to force workers to work.
In some parts (including territories of "the so-called" free world) slave labour is indeed used to manufacture goods, with the complicity of government authorities who turn a blind eye. Foreign workers unable to get employment at home, are often recruited with lies, and promises of lucrative salaries, only to have their passports taken away from them upon arrival, and them being forced to work til they drop. 

I've heard about some men who were supposed to be going to one country, ...ending up as involuntary workers in Iraq as part of the "reconstruction effort"

ps: This doesn't only occur in 3^rd world countries.
Neither Canada nor the USA are immune to this plague.

jag i respect your patriotism and coming to the defense of a fellow countryman, but be careful you dont want to get lumped into the same retarded/hypocrite category as matt here
p.s. being shanghaied to work in a sweatshop would royally suck

[tonymctones]

"It should have been a moment of pride for the Canadian army. Five of its most talented snipers -- men trained to kill without remorse, then turn around and kill again -- did exactly that. They destroyed al-Qaeda firing positions, saved American lives and tallied a body count unmatched by any Canadian soldier of their generation. U.S. commanders who served alongside the snipers nominated all five for the coveted Bronze Star medal."

sorry jag i just had to laugh at the "tallied a body count unmatched by any canadian soldier of their generation" that alone says alot for the canadian military

[24KT]

jag i respect your patriotism and coming to the defense of a fellow countryman, but be careful you dont want to get lumped into the same retarded/hypocrite category as matt here
p.s. being shanghaied to work in a sweatshop would royally suck

 

Patriotism?  Uh no. Patriotism has nothing to do with my understanding of his position.
If it did, ...it certainly wouldn't be worthy of respect. I mean, ...how assinine is that?
Defending someone just because they're from the same country as you? 
I wasn't defending the man, ...simply stating that I understood where he was coming from

If I disagree with anything someone says, ...it doesn't matter what country they're from.
I don't have a problem expressing it, ...just as I don't mind admitting to agreeing with someone whom I frequently disagree with. The "circle the wagons and blindly follow the deaf, dumb, and blind over a cliff simply because we're from the same country" is not a disease we Canadians tend to have as a whole. No "you're either with us or against us" BS up here.

I understand what he's stating, even if others here weren't understanding it.

The conditions we speak about are deplorable, however, the problem with tinkering with something, or imposing your value systems or protocols on other nations is usually unsuccessful in the long run. Blowback is a bitch! And I've seen the damage that can occur when such impositions are made, even with the best of intents. Western do-gooders put a stop to child labour, ...what then? Are you going to build a school for these children to go to, ...or are you going to leave them bored, destitute, and their families with the loss of an income source. Whether we like it or not, ...whether we want it or not, ...our lives are intertwined with theirs, and if western do gooders want to do good, ...then, while they're dismantling the sweatshops, and child labour markets, ...they ought to provide a solution, or foster an environment from which a solution can emerge. That's why we see situations in "civilized" parts of the world wherein leaders will not even discuss the hard truths, will attempt to keep them from the people or turn a blind eye to it altogetherhard facts. Because they know that in a democracy, when you give the people bad news, they will also want you to give them the solution as well.

ps: How can you have any kind of a civil or productive discussion with people making open honest statements, when you start threatening them before they even speak their mind?  As for the retarded/hypocrite label, who gives a poop ...I've been called worse than that on these very boards. Cowering to criticism has never been my forte, I see no reason to attempt to make it so now.

pps: That said, ...who is Marine Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich?

[tonymctones]

Im sorry jag i must have misinterpreted your post about the canadian military saving american lives as defending your country and fellow canadian. I can certainly see the trouble in seeing eye to eye with the difference in viewpoints between us as I believe in defending my fellow countryman not necissarily on this board but in a more specific sense of life and liberty (this is not a shot at you just my observation) but to each is own

since matt c. wont answer my question and you somewhat see his point maybe you will, if not no big deal.
Since he believes that its their choice to work in the sweatshops as opposed to death, can you not say that its the civilians fault in iraq for all the civilian causalties for choosing to stay in the a war torn city and perhaps die and not move to the desert or perhaps another part of the country
I understand that its tough and they have little money that aside if they truly wanted to they could move.
I dont want to argue with you so plz not hostility, I would like to have a open conversation without aggression

goin to a steak house ill respond later tonight

[24KT]

"It should have been a moment of pride for the Canadian army. Five of its most talented snipers -- men trained to kill without remorse, then turn around and kill again -- did exactly that. They destroyed al-Qaeda firing positions, saved American lives and tallied a body count unmatched by any Canadian soldier of their generation. U.S. commanders who served alongside the snipers nominated all five for the coveted Bronze Star medal."

sorry jag i just had to laugh at the "tallied a body count unmatched by any canadian soldier of their generation" that alone says alot for the canadian military

Yes indeed it does. It says our military isn't running around the world invading other countries, starting wars, manipulating wars, bombing countries into oblivion, and basically sport-killing men, women, and children as entertainment, target practice, or a means to blow off steam. And that unlike the military of some other nations who for the moment shall remain unnamed, Canada's military finds herself mostly in a peace-keeping capacity. Peace-keepers don't usually tally up body counts, ...that's not what peace-keepers do, ...although you wouldn't know it by watching what some nations have the audacity to try to pass off as "peace-keeping" Even sadder is that many of their citizens believe such attrocities are necessary components of "peace-keeping". Some of these war mongerers have done such a disservice to the brave & selfless members of their own militaries, it makes me wonder who they really believe the enemy to be. I mean, when the war-mongerers take someone who vowed to give their very life if necessary in order to defend their country, ...and instead put them in a position that does nothing but harm to their country, ...you really have to wonder who these war mongerers consider their enemy.  They've strayed so far off their course, and done so so gradually, they didn't even realize they were no longer on the path. Hopefully, enough of them will figure it out and get back there.  


I cut the story short in order to answer Special Ed's question, but does go on. The thrust of the story was not necessarily about how fabulous these guys were in that they saved American lives. There was quite a bit of controversy surrounding these men. The hoopla that might have taken place in other countries, or under other circumstances did not take place. Word of their accomplishment was barely breathed. We don't glorify killing up here. We know that in times of war, some killing needs to be done, but it's not something you glorify. In addition, one of those individuals was investigated for alledgedly taking a souvenir from one of his kills. It was alledged that a finger from one of the AlQ kills was sliced off, and taken as a souvenir.

War is not healthy for humans on any side. It's dangerous to both bodies AND minds. Some countries would trumpet such an incident, and laugh & cheer at such a unique souvenir, ...but we don't glorify what war does to destroy humanity. Whether it be the humanity of the innocent men women and children who end up in the line of fire, or the military personnel doing the firing.

I suppose it's appropriate for this thread, as I'm assuming Wuterich is a man accused of wrong doing during the course of his job? Yes, No,... that is what this thread is supposed to be about isn't it? Or was the thread title just a rouse to qualify for inclusion on the political board, with the real subject being MattC's possible childhood diet or winter apparel?

[youandme]

Yes indeed it does. It says our military isn't running around the world invading other countries, starting wars, manipulating wars, bombing countries into oblivion, and basically sport-killing men, women, and children as entertainment, target practice, or a means to blow off steam. And that unlike the military of some other nations who for the moment shall remain unnamed, Canada's military finds herself mostly in a peace-keeping capacity. Peace-keepers don't usually tally up body counts, ...that's not what peace-keepers do, ...although you wouldn't know it by watching what some nations have the audacity to try to pass off as "peace-keeping" Even sadder is that many of their citizens believe such attrocities are necessary components of "peace-keeping". Some of these war mongerers have done such a disservice to the brave & selfless members of their own militaries, it makes me wonder who they really believe the enemy to be. I mean, when the war-mongerers take someone who vowed to give their very life if necessary in order to defend their country, ...and instead put them in a position that does nothing but harm to their country, ...you really have to wonder who these war mongerers consider their enemy.  They've strayed so far off their course, and done so so gradually, they didn't even realize they were no longer on the path. Hopefully, enough of them will figure it out and get back there.  


I cut the story short in order to answer Special Ed's question, but does go on. The thrust of the story was not necessarily about how fabulous these guys were in that they saved American lives. There was quite a bit of controversy surrounding these men. The hoopla that might have taken place in other countries, or under other circumstances did not take place. Word of their accomplishment was barely breathed. We don't glorify killing up here. We know that in times of war, some killing needs to be done, but it's not something you glorify. In addition, one of those individuals was investigated for alledgedly taking a souvenir from one of his kills. It was alledged that a finger from one of the AlQ kills was sliced off, and taken as a souvenir.

War is not healthy for humans on any side. It's dangerous to both bodies AND minds. Some countries would trumpet such an incident, and laugh & cheer at such a unique souvenir, ...but we don't glorify what war does to destroy humanity. Whether it be the humanity of the innocent men women and children who end up in the line of fire, or the military personnel doing the firing.

I suppose it's appropriate for this thread, as I'm assuming Wuterich is a man accused of wrong doing during the course of his job? Yes, No,... that is what this thread is supposed to be about isn't it? Or was the thread title just a rouse to qualify for inclusion on the political board, with the real subject being MattC's possible childhood diet or winter apparel?

Someone tell Ron to add a sleeping emoticon 

[24KT]

Im sorry jag i must have misinterpreted your post about the canadian military saving american lives as defending your country and fellow canadian.

Oh that post, ...I thought you were refering to the one you quoted.

I can certainly see the trouble in seeing eye to eye with the difference in viewpoints between us as I believe in defending my fellow countryman not necissarily on this board but in a more specific sense of life and liberty (this is not a shot at you just my observation) but to each is own

I haven't even stated my viewpoint on this, ...only what I understand Matt's to be.
Are you psychic or something?  

since matt c. wont answer my question and you somewhat see his point maybe you will, if not no big deal.
Since he believes that its their choice to work in the sweatshops as opposed to death, can you not say that its the civilians fault in iraq for all the civilian causalties for choosing to stay in the a war torn city and perhaps die and not move to the desert or perhaps another part of the country
I understand that its tough and they have little money that aside if they truly wanted to they could move.
I dont want to argue with you so plz not hostility, I would like to have a open conversation without aggression

I can't speak for Matt. I can only state what I believe his position to be. If I'm incorrect in my understanding of Matt's position or opinion, he's free to correct me, ...or not. As for the civilians in Iraq, I hardly consider myself qualified to tell you what Matt is thinking or feeling about that, ...because he hasn't expressed that (to my knowledge) If he's made it clear in other posts, I missed it. Apples & Oranges, and someone's position in one matter isn't necessarily indicative of or reflective of their position in another matter, ...unless, of course you view the crushing economic situations in these other countries that practice child labour conditions to be the end result of the c/overt hostile aggression against other nations we're seeing far too much of, or a "non conventional" war?

goin to a steak house ill respond later tonight

   A steakhouse?    Do you know how much methane (climate change gas) cows produce?  
Oh my, it's really your lucky day then   I know how much you detest that "retarded/hypocrite" label, (otherwise you wouldn't have considered it to be a possible deterrent to me).  It wasn't too long ago that we had no way of mitigating the damage we did to the environment, or doing our part to slow down climate change, and methane surrrrrrre captures a lot of heat.

Thank Goodness we're now empowered to truly be responsible stewards of the earth by reducing pollution and other climate warming gasses, protecting the environment, and saving money all at the same time. Feel free to click the link to my website for clarification. This way, no one will be able to call you a retarded/hypocrite for eating steak. You should soon be able to say, "I'm doing my part!".  You will be able to say that won't you?    

ps: not feeling hostile, just bratty & mischevous.  

[24KT]

Someone tell Ron to add a sleeping emoticon 

{lol} brat!

Just type in your Zzzzzzzzz's if your ADHD will allow you to focus long enough to find the right keys, otherwise Ron might need to add one.