What would it take for you to believe?

[Butterbean]

Yes, every once in a while, in between Black Mass services, selling my soul to the Devil, worshipping at the altar of Secular Humanism, and planning my eternity in Beelzebub's Sauna Spa

ha ha    

So am I to decipher that your answer is no?  If that is correct, it explains a lot of your confusion.

[columbusdude82]

My answer, dear lady, is yes.

I read the Bible a lot when I was a believer. I read it (and read about it) now as an unbeliever, as a sort of academic exercise to indulge the historian in me.

[Butterbean]

My answer, dear lady, is yes.

OK thanks


OK back to this:

Ancient Jews were really concerned about what would happen hundreds or thousands of years after our time that they put it in their scriptures...

I think you meant the above sarcastically but it is a true statement.

No, they weren't talking about their own time, their own world... Their world was so free of all concerns that they had the luxury of forecasting the distant future...

And they of course talked aout their own time but also wrote about the distant future. 

[Tre]

God would have to walk through the door, go into the the kitchen, and make me a ham & turkey sandwich. 

[Beefjake]

If there would be proof that would end the belief.

Also it would be nice to see how humanity would react to definite proof of christian god.

a Supreme being controlling our lives...

"I am not a number. I am a free man!"

[Deicide]

Give me some more evidence than the mad rantings of desert goatherders and I will consider it.

[columbusdude82]

Show me an example of an amputee that your god healed by re-growing their missing limb(s).

Also, present evidence that it was him and not Allah or any of the others.

[beatmaster]

lollll i was just thinking about that:

America (not everybody) believe in a god created by desert peoples long time ago, people that kill, murder, make war....... and we try to distant ourself of them, does that make sens?

[Hedgehog]

very interesting find loco!


Here is a commentary on Eze 38:1-9 from www.i-amfaithweb.net

Ezekiel 38: 1-9

The Prophecy
1 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
2 Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal:
4 and I will turn you about, and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you forth, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them handling swords;
5 Persia, Cush, and Put with them, all of them with shield and helmet;
6 Gomer, and all his hordes; the house of Togarmah in the uttermost parts of the north, and all his hordes; even many peoples with you.
7 Be prepared, yes, prepare yourself, you, and all your companies who are assembled to you, and be a guard to them.
8 After many days you shall be visited: in the latter years you shall come into the land that is brought back from the sword, that is gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have been a continual waste; but it is brought forth out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.
9 You shall ascend, you shall come like a storm, you shall be like a cloud to cover the land, you, and all your hordes, and many peoples with you.

The first thing to notice is that exact geographical locations are given (vs. 2, 5-6).
Many commentators are in agreement as to the countries involved; they are: Russia ( Magog being the name given to the general area of modern day Russia), Rosh is specifically Russia, Meshech is Moscow whilst Tubal is Tobolsk. Persia is Iran, Cush is Ethiopia, Put is Somalia (some would say, as do some translations, Lybia), Gomer is in modern day Germany and Togarmah is Armenia.
No Arab countries are mentioned as belonging to the coalition (Iran, although Islamic is not Arab).
The coalition of armies is headed by Gog the leader or prince of Russia and comprising of Russia, Iran, Ethiopia, Somalia (could be Lybia), Germany and Armenia; there could also be other countries involved although the 'even many peoples with you' of verse 6 could be a reference to the vast array of different cultures involved.

Nice links.

I still don't see Russia being mentioned. Nor have I found anything when I re-read Ezekiel.

There is no nation today called "Magog", eg.

Let me ask you this STella:

What's your opinion about what is written in Ezekiel?

[Butterbean]

Nice links.

I still don't see Russia being mentioned. Nor have I found anything when I re-read Ezekiel.

There is no nation today called "Magog", eg.

Let me ask you this STella:

What's your opinion about what is written in Ezekiel?

Are you asking me if I believe that Russia could be a country referred to in Ezekiel 38?  Yes, I do.


What are your feelings on bible prophecy Zach?

[Deicide]

Are you asking me if I believe that Russia could be a country referred to in Ezekiel 38?  Yes, I do.


What are your feelings on bible prophecy Zach?

Stella, I am curious. Do you even bother to read contemporary, academic biblical scholarship? Does it even interest you? Do you even want to read such things?

[Hedgehog]

Are you asking me if I believe that Russia could be a country referred to in Ezekiel 38?  Yes, I do.

No, I am asking you if you believe an Russian Army will attempt to invade Israel and fail.

What are your feelings on bible prophecy Zach?

The Bible is written by man.

Prophecies in the Bible are valid or flawed as any predictions or future analysis made.

But I don't "believe" in them, no.

[Butterbean]

No, I am asking you if you believe an Russian Army will attempt to invade Israel and fail.

Yes I believe this could happen.

[Butterbean]

Stella, I am curious. Do you even bother to read contemporary, academic biblical scholarship? Does it even interest you? Do you even want to read such things?

Can you give me some examples of what you would consider contemporary, academic biblical scholarship?

[Hedgehog]

Yes I believe this could happen.

Could happen, or that it is likely to happen?

[Deicide]

Can you give me some examples of what you would consider contemporary, academic biblical scholarship?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misquoting_Jesus

http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Shrinking-Son-Man-Tradition/dp/1591021219/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201014137&sr=1-1

The authors submit conclude the Hebrew bible was conceived, written, and read as a theological and community text. To dissect the bible in search of accurate, verifiable history is to demand of it something that it is not. The bible is narrative expression of shared community life. It emerged in the late 7th century BCE as the response of a small kingdom to the unique pressures it faced, and was later refined as the response of the even smaller Temple community in Jerusalem to the challenges of the post-Exilic period. It demands to be read, not as history in the modern sense, but as the literary and spiritual creation of its own age.

[ToxicAvenger]

Some believe it is referenced in Ezekial 38 and 39.

I didn't know that.  How do they say He will return Toxy? 


That's interesting.  Some believe that the following refers to the antichrist receiving a fatal wound and recovering from it (probably not a nuke though  )


Revelation 13:2-4
"...... The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

stells...

i dont believe in the devil either!

[Butterbean]

Could happen, or that it is likely to happen?

I do believe that a force/army will attack from the north of Israel and will fail and be destroyed in accordance w/Ezekiel 38 and 39.  If Russia is a country talked about I believe it will happen concerning Russia.  If it's some other country or coalition (from wherever) that attacks from the north of Israel that is being talked about, I believe it will happen concerning them.  Yes, I believe that Ezekiel 38 and 39 will happen. 

[Butterbean]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misquoting_Jesus

http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Shrinking-Son-Man-Tradition/dp/1591021219/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201014137&sr=1-1

Stella, I am curious. Do you even bother to read contemporary, academic biblical scholarship? Does it even interest you? Do you even want to read such things?

Thanks for providing those links Trapezkerl.  After briefly perusing the links, my answer to your above questions would have to be that I really wouldn't be interested in reading any of those. 

[columbusdude82]

Stella, have you considered the possibility that your mind has been hijacked by a mind virus? (like a computer virus, only in your mind)

Perhaps it is that mind virus that dictates to your mind: "Do not read any source of knowledge that might challenge my control over you."

[Butterbean]

Stella, have you considered the possibility that your mind has been hijacked by a mind virus? (like a computer virus, only in your mind)

Perhaps it is that mind virus that dictates to your mind: "Do not read any source of knowledge that might challenge my control over you."

lol Do you say this because I said I wouldn't be interested in reading any of the books in the links Trapez posted?  They just don't interest me.  I'm also not interested in reading stuff like "Bridges Over Madison County."

Coldude, are you interested in reading books like "Surprised by Joy" "The Grand Miracle" and "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis? 

[Deicide]

lol Do you say this because I said I wouldn't be interested in reading any of the books in the links Trapez posted?  They just don't interest me.  I'm also not interested in reading stuff like "Bridges Over Madison County."

Coldude, are you interested in reading books like "Surprised by Joy" "The Grand Miracle" and "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis? 

I have read 'Mere Christianity.' Terrible apologetics though apologetics always are.

It is very covenient that you refused to read respected biblical scholars whose conclusions challenge your own beliefs. They don't interest you because they demonstrate that the bible is just a contrived book, full of mistakes, fabrications and exaggerations, like any other.

Ignorance is bliss, ain't it Stella?

I still think you're a nice person and have concluded that your psychology requires these strange things you believe; very common, many people believe for the comfort it provides.

[laurion]

When pigs fly 
Just kidding

[Butterbean]

I have read 'Mere Christianity.' Terrible apologetics though apologetics always are.

It is very covenient that you refused to read respected biblical scholars whose conclusions challenge your own beliefs. They don't interest you because they demonstrate that the bible is just a contrived book, full of mistakes, fabrications and exaggerations, like any other.

Ignorance is bliss, ain't it Stella?

I still think you're a nice person and have concluded that your psychology requires these strange things you believe; very common, many people believe for the comfort it provides.

Thanks Trapezkerl

Out of respect to you, if you give me several books to choose from I will give one a try.  Please keep in mind while making possible selections for me that I'd like the book to present your side w/o displaying a blatant attempt to primarily disrespect the bible....this way it will likely be more palatable and will make me less apt to think defensively.

Also your selections should be somewhat simple for me to grasp and understand as since I'm not really that interested to read them; they should grab and keep my attention.

So what other suggestions do you have?  And could you give me a brief summary of them (or in a link) and also the background and the credentials of the author?

I will to try to read one.


Another thought is we could go over the book together and discuss it here.  Maybe everyone could read it and join the discussion?  We could call it Trapezkerl's Book Club   But I would want to pick the next book please!

[laurion]

The Cost of Discipleship: Dietrich Bonhoeffer