Author Topic: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!  (Read 13534 times)

G o a t b o y

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2008, 10:25:31 PM »
WTF do "Liberals" have to do with this??

Do you even know anything about the Govt of Sweden?

Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you think


Sweden?  They're not "liberals"...  they're fucking socialists.  Karl Marx himself may as well be prime minister.
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Matt C

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2008, 10:28:36 PM »

 ::)

Explain how you can be both predominantly conservative and a libertarian.

Conservative = conserving the principles the nation was founded on.  For all intents and purposes I am speaking about the Constitution of the United States or Canada's version which is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Also, the Declaration of Independence.  Modern day "conservatives" do not conserve these values.
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Hedgehog

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2008, 10:37:52 PM »
Conservative = conserving the principles the nation was founded on.  For all intents and purposes I am speaking about the Constitution of the United States or Canada's version which is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Also, the Declaration of Independence.  Modern day "conservatives" do not conserve these values.

A libertarian is anti-goverment, and wants to minimize military, taxes, and everything that is associated with government.

Individual freedom and responsibility is key.

For further reading, see Robert Nozick.

A conservative on the other hand, views the government as an organism, with the ruling body on top, and that everyone has a task in the system.

For further reading, see Edmund Burke.

So it is hard for me to see how you get these two extremely different ideologies to merge.
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Straw Man

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2008, 10:48:24 PM »

Sweden?  They're not "liberals"...  they're fucking socialists.  Karl Marx himself may as well be prime minister.

Now you're forcing me to go learn stuff about Sweden and like I said on the first page of this thread I really don't care.

This Forbes article is from 2001 but it seems like it's not quite a pure socialist society and whatever they've got going on now it seems they got some extra $$$ to study bovine burps:

 
The new face of Swedish socialism



Swedish snapshot A: Shows a taxed-to-the-eyeballs welfare state where the government grabs more than 52% of the country's GDP—the highest percentage of any industrial country. A Swedish businessman who earns Euro200,000 a year gets to keep just 49% of his paycheck. Of OECD countries, only France comes close to Sweden in taxing its most successful businesspeople (for complete tax data on 33 countries, see "The tax grab 2001," Forbes Global, Feb. 5).

Swedish snapshot B: Shows a booming economy bubbling with entrepreneurial activity. Growth is predicted to be 3.5% for 2001; inflation, 1.7%; unemployment, 4% (less than half the European average). In 1999, according to the European Information Technology Observatory, Sweden ranked first in the world in investment in information technology and telecommunications. Venture capital is pouring into Sweden, and labor productivity is rocketing: From 1990 to 1999 productivity climbed 47% in Sweden, against 39% in the U.S. and 31% (on average) in the EU. Last year, Sweden topped the global standings in R&D spending as a percentage of GDP with 3.7% (in the U.S. it was 3.1%), according to the OECD.

How to reconcile snapshots A and B? Is Sweden a bloated welfare state? Or a People's Republic of Entrepreneurs?

The answer is that it's a mixture of both. But the entrepreneurial part of the mix is rapidly gaining ascendancy. One yardstick is the number of business startups. They averaged 29,000 a year between 1984 and 1989 and 36,000 between 1994 and 1999, an increase of nearly 25%.

Cradle-to-grave security is the rule in Sweden, and has been since the early 1950s (the country went socialist in 1932). Go on the dole in Sweden, for example, and you can get 80% of your last job's pay for at least five years. Like to fish? The government will put you in a twelve-month program to learn how to be a fishing guide. Health care is free. So is education. Hence those obscenely high taxes.

Less well known, however, is that starting in the early 1990s, Sweden finally woke up to the fact that to be successful, a country needs entrepreneurs. No entrepreneurs, no new businesses. No new businesses, rising unemployment. Rising unemployment, politicians looking for new jobs—or new careers. Deciding that they like their jobs, a new generation of Swedish Social Democrats has created a much more friendly environment for business. Sweden is not a capitalistic heaven on earth, but it's not the hell on earth for entrepreneurs that it was until a few years ago.

Consider the distance Sweden has traveled. After some flush years in the 1950s and 1960s (the result, according to Milton Friedman, the Nobel winning economist, of Sweden's "having had the good economic sense to stay out of World War II"), the socialists neutered then exiled the geese that laid the golden eggs. Ingvar Kamprad, 75, the founder of ikea, the $10 billion (estimated worldwide 2000 revenues) furniture retailing chain, describes meetings with Sweden's tax bureaucrats in the 1960s and 1970s this way: "They would accuse me: ‘But you just want a profit.' And I would proudly reply that I was giving people jobs."

Bertil Hult, 60, the founder of the Stockholm-based ef language schools, remembers those dark days well. "By the 1970s, the Swedish media were presenting anyone who started a business as someone who was using the people," he says. "Entrepreneurs were pariahs. So lots of entrepreneurs left. The government's view was, ‘Let them go, we don't need them here.'" In the 1970s Hult left and built ef from Germany, the U.K. and the U.S. Today the privately owned ef Group is the largest company of its kind in the world. Veckans Affärer, a respected Swedish business magazine, estimates that its revenues are $650 million; its net margin is 5%; and its payroll is 17,000.

With entrepreneurs like Hult fleeing, the economy began going down the tubes. Growth slowed, and inflation rose. State spending and debt soared. Private-sector jobs began to disappear.

By 1991 the voters had had enough. They threw out the Social Democrats for the first time since the war and installed Carl Bildt's Conservative government. Bildt set about liberalizing important state-monopolized or dominated markets, notably telecommunications and banking.

the rest here should anyone care to read it: http://www.forbes.com/global/2001/0319/034.html

G o a t b o y

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2008, 10:50:30 PM »
A libertarian is anti-goverment, and wants to minimize military, taxes, and everything that is associated with government.

Individual freedom and responsibility is key.

For further reading, see Robert Nozick.

A conservative on the other hand, views the government as an organism, with the ruling body on top, and that everyone has a task in the system.

For further reading, see Edmund Burke.

So it is hard for me to see how you get these two extremely different ideologies to merge.


Because in America, which is a two-party system (no proportional representation), both libertarians and conservatives tend to ally on the right and vote for Republicans. 
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Hedgehog

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2008, 10:52:15 PM »

Because in America, which is a two-party system (no proportional representation), both libertarians and conservatives tend to ally on the right and vote for Republicans. 

I know.

But Matt C claimed to be both conservative and Libertarian.



And one more thing...



Matt C, is Teh Canaids. ;D
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candidizzle

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2008, 10:55:03 PM »
Bush is the biggest liberal we've ever had in Washington, biggest spender in US history.
;D ;D being liberal means being a spender? hahaha. i always was under the impression that being liberal meant that you were progressive minded.    8)

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2008, 10:55:31 PM »
I know.

But Matt C claimed to be both conservative and Libertarian.



And one more thing...



Matt C, is Teh Canaids. ;D

That just shows he's confused...  both politically and sexually.
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Tombo

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2008, 10:58:04 PM »
btw .. Sweden is one of the best countries to live in.



candidizzle

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2008, 10:59:34 PM »
A libertarian is anti-goverment, and wants to minimize military, taxes, and everything that is associated with government.

Individual freedom and responsibility is key.

For further reading, see Robert Nozick.

A conservative on the other hand, views the government as an organism, with the ruling body on top, and that everyone has a task in the system.

For further reading, see Edmund Burke.

So it is hard for me to see how you get these two extremely different ideologies to merge.
a libertarian isnt anti-government..its pro small government.  limiting the governments role to only those things that citizens cannot do for themselves.

a libertarian isnt anti fireman, policeman, military, post office, or office of transportation...they are just anti-social programs and anti financial regulations.

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2008, 11:00:10 PM »
btw .. Sweden is one of the best countries to live in.





If you like freezing your balls off year round and sunset at 2:30 pm in winter, sure.  ::)
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Hedgehog

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2008, 11:01:08 PM »
a libertarian isnt anti-government..its pro small government.  limiting the governments role to only those things that citizens cannot do for themselves.

What part of minimize did you have problem comprehend, muchacho? ::)
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Matt C

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2008, 11:03:33 PM »
A libertarian is anti-goverment, and wants to minimize military, taxes, and everything that is associated with government.

Individual freedom and responsibility is key.

For further reading, see Robert Nozick.

A conservative on the other hand, views the government as an organism, with the ruling body on top, and that everyone has a task in the system.

For further reading, see Edmund Burke.

So it is hard for me to see how you get these two extremely different ideologies to merge.

The definition of conservative you pointed out is a tainted version of what a conservative meant when the United States was originally founded.  The founding fathers did not want big government.
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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2008, 11:08:39 PM »
The definition of conservative you pointed out is a tainted version of what a conservative meant when the United States was originally founded.  The founding fathers did not want big government.

The founders of the US were classical Liberals (as opposed to the modern definition of the term), almost libertarians, and they'd puke if they could see how large and pervasive our government has become today.
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Straw Man

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2008, 11:12:30 PM »
btw .. Sweden is one of the best countries to live in.


Shit - from the little I've read it sounds pretty damn good. 

from that article

Go on the dole in Sweden, for example, and you can get 80% of your last job's pay for at least five years. Like to fish? The government will put you in a twelve-month program to learn how to be a fishing guide. Health care is free. So is education.

OK - so the tax rate is upwards of 52% but they don't have to spend any $$$ on health care or education (and I'm wondering what retirement benefit are like).

In the US the highest tax bracket is 35% and I live in California and the top tier for the state tax is 9.3 %

so for just a bit more in taxes the Swedes get free healthcare for life, free education, etc...

Matt C

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2008, 11:16:55 PM »
The founders of the US were classical Liberals (as opposed to the modern definition of the term), almost libertarians, and they'd puke if they could see how large and pervasive our government has become today.

Yes they would.  The definitions of the terms have changed over time.  Neocons really aren't very conservative at all!
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Hedgehog

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2008, 11:18:33 PM »
Yes they would.  The definitions of the terms have changed over time.  Neocons really aren't very conservative at all!


Once again.

You claim to be both conservative and libertarian.

How do you get these two very different ideologies to mix?
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Tombo

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2008, 02:46:53 AM »

If you like freezing your balls off year round and sunset at 2:30 pm in winter, sure.  ::)

i don't know about you, but i'm talking about a quality of life, much of which the Swedish government will gladly provide, if you're willing to pay taxes :)

240 is Back

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2008, 03:24:32 AM »
Typical neocon response to something s/he doesn't understand. 

He admits to Zack that he doesn't understand what's in the article.

Yet he ridicules it.

He started a thread to bash scientsits in anther country on the other side of the world, researching something he admits he doesn't understand.

He did this because in his mind, he drew some parallel to americans democrats, which he knows he hates, despite the fact they are unrelated to this news story.

bigdumbbell

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2008, 03:56:51 AM »
$590k to research how much a cow's burp effects "global warming" and I'm the nutcase? LOL.....K!
you didn't pay a fuckin cent for it so wtf is it to you?   :)

bigdumbbell

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2008, 04:02:42 AM »
He admits to Zack that he doesn't understand what's in the article.

Yet he ridicules it.

He started a thread to bash scientsits in anther country on the other side of the world, researching something he admits he doesn't understand.

He did this because in his mind, he drew some parallel to americans democrats, which he knows he hates, despite the fact they are unrelated to this news story.
in other words    stupidy

dr.chimps

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2008, 04:26:50 AM »
You're right, the only one and truthfully I posted because it was drivel.
Nice to see you staying on message. I have the feeling that if you ever got off the cow farts you'd be in over your head, here. Some good points being made, from all sides.  :D

/240 does a nice analysis of the joeloco mindset.

Nordic Superman

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2008, 04:53:15 AM »
Shit - from the little I've read it sounds pretty damn good. 

from that article

Go on the dole in Sweden, for example, and you can get 80% of your last job's pay for at least five years. Like to fish? The government will put you in a twelve-month program to learn how to be a fishing guide. Health care is free. So is education.

OK - so the tax rate is upwards of 52% but they don't have to spend any $$$ on health care or education (and I'm wondering what retirement benefit are like).

In the US the highest tax bracket is 35% and I live in California and the top tier for the state tax is 9.3 %

so for just a bit more in taxes the Swedes get free healthcare for life, free education, etc...

The benefit of the US is that you can opt in to what you want.

For example, in Britain, I have private dental and health care. I still have to pay for the NHS a service that I do not require.

In America you are given the responsibility via reductions in tax, to chose to do with the extra free cash as you please, be it healthcare, pension, bonds etc.

Of course if you Americans can admit you're stupid and irresponsible than maybe 50%+ taxation and the government treating you like babies is a good idea?

Also, Sweden is a small country in comparison why do you assume it's government style is scalable on the size of the US?
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dr.chimps

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2008, 05:40:46 AM »
For example, in Britain, I have private dental and health care. I still have to pay for the NHS a service that I do not require.
No need to lie, here.  ;)   :D

Nordic Superman

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2008, 06:04:13 AM »
No need to lie, here.  ;)   :D

We need a yawn smiley on getbig.
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