Principal Electrical Engineer for WTC: “Fuel and Planes Alone Did NOT Bring the

[War-Horse]

I would think if a strip of explosive was placed on the correct rivet of a joint you could blow out a corner with nothing but a burn mark left as eveidence.

Now not all floors would have to be detonated, just the top ones to get momentum working for you........No evidence and burn marks on steel blamed on jetfuel fires.....

[headhuntersix]

I'm not sure if u guys read "we were soldiers" the book that the Mel Gibson movie was based on. If u look on the original cover, there is a guy running in the jungle. That guy was a Rodesian...served as a Rodesian scout and then came to America and joined the Army...got commissioned and served in Vietnam..anyway this guy ended up being the security guy for Canter-Fitzgerald. He complained endlessly that the buildings were in danger....he did eveything he could to protect his people..he ran drills and took his job seriously. He was killed on 911..guys like this don't fuck over the American public. Not to many people are into small scale genocide.

[Pete Dimano]

I'm not sure if u guys read "we were soldiers" the book that the Mel Gibson movie was based on. If u look on the original cover, there is a guy running in the jungle. That guy was a Rodesian...served as a Rodesian scout and then came to America and joined the Army...got commissioned and served in Vietnam..anyway this guy ended up being the security guy for Canter-Fitzgerald. He complained endlessly that the buildings were in danger....he did eveything he could to protect his people..he ran drills and took his job seriously. He was killed on 911..guys like this don't fuck over the American public. Not to many people are into small scale genocide.

what was his name?

[Straw Man]

I'm not sure if u guys read "we were soldiers" the book that the Mel Gibson movie was based on. If u look on the original cover, there is a guy running in the jungle. That guy was a Rodesian...served as a Rodesian scout and then came to America and joined the Army...got commissioned and served in Vietnam..anyway this guy ended up being the security guy for Canter-Fitzgerald. He complained endlessly that the buildings were in danger....he did eveything he could to protect his people..he ran drills and took his job seriously. He was killed on 911..guys like this don't fuck over the American public. Not to many people are into small scale genocide.

yep - lot's of good people died that day

There are plenty of people in power around the world who have no problem at all with mass murder

Cheney is always using the term "mass death" almost every time he makes a speech.  He seems to love that phrase  and certainly appears to love reminding us all of the possibility

[Eyeball Chambers]

This thread turned out nice, no attacks just discussion.

[OzmO]

Those of you that suspect or believe that there where explosives planted need to think it through completely.  What would it take?

-  Getting the explosives either from government sources which are inventoried, or from outside sources which would be inventoried also
-  All those involved in the inventory process would have to be involved bought off and know what they did
-  Planting the explosives:  At the very least many maintenance persons and security persons would have to be bought off.  And know that they contributed to the deaths of 3000 people.
-  Covering up Physical preparation would have taken some doing and time
-  The actual act of planting the explosives and covering it up so that people wouldn't know.
-  All this and no one has come forward or leaked anything solid in 6 years.
-  Why wouldn't just slamming planes be good enough to get America into war?
-  the buildings would have likely been toast any way and needed to be torn down

At some point we realize real life isn't like the movies.  It's not as simple as paying a few people off and secretly planting a explosives in a 110 story building so that when planes slam into it comes down. 

I'm sure if you really sat down a throughly and thought it out there would soo much more we could list down there that would be involved that would show this is so very unlikely and that after 6 years all we have is no-expert speculation and the expert speculation comes from people who don't have all the facts or aren't either peer reviewed or are on the fringes of accepted fields.

[headhuntersix]

Glad u posted that....I'd add...not a single mistake...something left out...falls out of a box....somebody misses something..loose wire....sorry way to hard. Again these were not job blow the rag men....as security folks for the building.....each company had somebody who was concerned with it, whether that was their sole job or as an additional duty....the building folks would see something.

[Bindare_Dundat]

Come on guys 3 BUILDINGS FALL DOWN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!?

What are the odds?

I don't dwell on this stuff but it's very strange.

[Straw Man]

Those of you that suspect or believe that there where explosives planted need to think it through completely.  What would it take?

-  Getting the explosives either from government sources which are inventoried, or from outside sources which would be inventoried also
-  All those involved in the inventory process would have to be involved bought off and know what they did
-  Planting the explosives:  At the very least many maintenance persons and security persons would have to be bought off.  And know that they contributed to the deaths of 3000 people.-  Covering up Physical preparation would have taken some doing and time
-  The actual act of planting the explosives and covering it up so that people wouldn't know.
-  All this and no one has come forward or leaked anything solid in 6 years.
-  Why wouldn't just slamming planes be good enough to get America into war?
-  the buildings would have likely been toast any way and needed to be torn down

At some point we realize real life isn't like the movies.  It's not as simple as paying a few people off and secretly planting a explosives in a 110 story building so that when planes slam into it comes down. 

I'm sure if you really sat down a throughly and thought it out there would soo much more we could list down there that would be involved that would show this is so very unlikely and that after 6 years all we have is no-expert speculation and the expert speculation comes from people who don't have all the facts or aren't either peer reviewed or are on the fringes of accepted fields.

believe it or not - it's the thought that a large group would be willing to kill 3000 people that is hardest to accept - at least for me, but isn't it possible that the vast majority of the participants didn't actually know the entire scenario and or maybe they were told something different like the whole place was going to be evacuated and no one would get hurt.  No doubt a small core group would have to know the big picture but certainly not all the bit players. Also, humans have a large capacity for rationalization of heinious actions.    

All the other stuff - explosives, access, timing, etc... can be addressed - though I'm a bit short on time this morning and can't get sucked into this at the moment...running late already.

[headhuntersix]

If u have kids...being able to do this would be hard. Also u could compartmentalize the purchases...hide the stuff...rent vehicles etc..but actually wiring it all up...near impossible. We need a building demo guy to weight in....it might have looked that way..controled explosion...but the stuff to do it would be huge. Wire..barrels of explosive....a block of c-4 is just not that much. I'v seen tons of the stuff used to blow ammo/weaposn caches up..u need alot to get that big explosion...semtex is hartder to get....might be easier to trace.

[War-Horse]

Thats the problem.   Its to Ironic, the way it happened.    But its hard to explain also.

Then again the govt has always allowed civilian deaths to forward the cause of the "Greater Good"

[ToxicAvenger]

interesting, but like someone said, he's an electrical engineer.

what about the structural engineers of the world?  what are they saying?  has to be the most famous collapse in history- it really did create history (3 buildings falling so fast, so neatly and symmetrically from fire, and dissolving).  normally when buildings collapse, there is a big pile of 'building'.  it all turned to powder here.

but i dont want to hear when an electrical guy hears about it.  have any engineers in that area spoken on it?  hell, i bet a physicist could have a field day too.

i have a couzin in law thats a pilot..he said...

1) you cant bank and fly a commercial jet like the 911 planes flew..you'll rip the wings right off or stall
2) to aim at a target that small (yes small) at those speeds you need
a) to plot out your course beforehand
b) have an experienced pilot..which them arabs were NOT

[headhuntersix]

i have a couzin in law thats a pilot..he said...

1) you cant bank and fly a commercial jet like the 911 planes flew..you'll rip the wings right off or stall
2) to aim at a target that small (yes small) at those speeds you need
a) to plot out your course beforehand
b) have an experienced pilot..which them arabs were NOT

So ur saying that arabs were'nt flying or they weren't planes?

[Decker]

I don't know the particulars.  I always go back to a few general ideas:

1.  For the first time in the history of the US, 4 airplanes are hijacked simultaneously and the world's finest most technilogically advanced defense system does nothing about it.  To me, that is beyond the pale of coincidental explanation.

2.  The WTC buildings were designed with structural redundancies to absorb exactly the type of collisions that occurred.

Those two points cause me to question what happened. 

Like the rest of you, as far as facts are concerned, I know what my government tells me.

[ToxicAvenger]

A college memorial union fire reached 1200 degrees because CHAIRS served as an accelerant; think there were many in the WTC?  This was the hottest fire this local department every dealt with. 

http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html

[Straw Man]

Regarding the actual demo - clearly none of us here are experts but we should consider that if this was some sort of quasi-govt conspiracy they could have access to highly sophisticated explosives and other material that perhaps is not available for your every day run of the mill demo.   The whole process could be very different from what is done in a conventional demo.   Just something to keep in mind.

Also, a short video on thermite (I have no clue of the person in the vid is a quack or not - not time to cross reference stuff this morning).

[Mad Nickels]

computers flew those planes that day.  
the seoncd WTC hit was a a very steep angle at 500 mph.
the pentagon hit? damn near impossible for an experienced pilot - and circling around the front to nail the exact spot that just got renovated and happened to be full of all the people who knew about the missing 2.3 tril and that mornings wargames? no way, jose.

plus- anyone who would have witnessed the devices being installed would have been killed when they exploded that morning.  the few people who did stay home, speak of power downs the week before, plus finding concrete powder on their desks from drilling, hearing heavy machinery on empty floors, etc.

you could easily keep those involved unaware until the last minute.  then you have them all meet in the 110th floor for breakfast on 911, and *pow* problem solved lol...

[OzmO]

Come on guys 3 BUILDINGS FALL DOWN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!?

What are the odds?

I don't dwell on this stuff but it's very strange.

They didn't fall exactly the same way.  Other than down.

[OzmO]

computers flew those planes that day. 
the seoncd WTC hit was a a very steep angle at 500 mph.
the pentagon hit? damn near impossible for an experienced pilot - and circling around the front to nail the exact spot that just got renovated and happened to be full of all the people who knew about the missing 2.3 tril and that mornings wargames? no way, jose.

plus- anyone who would have witnessed the devices being installed would have been killed when they exploded that morning.  the few people who did stay home, speak of power downs the week before, plus finding concrete powder on their desks from drilling, hearing heavy machinery on empty floors, etc.

you could easily keep those involved unaware until the last minute.  then you have them all meet in the 110th floor for breakfast on 911, and *pow* problem solved lol...

You are not thinking it through.  plain and simple.   What you suggested there would also involve every person at the terminal gates, ground crews, flight crews, Flight attendants, air traffic controllers, long range controllers, transponders, disposing of a jet liner complete with hundreds of thousands spare parts and serial numbers and the list could go on and on.

The best and most successful plans involve simplicity.   What you are suggesting is complex beyond reason involving too many people who would at some point talk and leave a trail.

[Mad Nickels]

You are not thinking it through.  plain and simple.   What you suggested there would also involve every person at the terminal gates, ground crews, flight crews, Flight attendants, air traffic controllers, long range controllers, transponders, disposing of a jet liner complete with hundreds of thousands spare parts and serial numbers and the list could go on and on.

The best and most successful plans involve simplicity.   What you are suggesting is complex beyond reason involving too many people who would at some point talk and leave a trail.

No.

6 months before 911, boeing announced it had the computer technology to remote control its planes.  it was an anti-terrorism move, since it meant they could force hijacked planes to land.  it was only available on a few models though - those being the same planes used on 911 coincidentally.  look it up.

it wouldnt take a hundred people.  it would take 1 computer program installed in the right places and a few guys to just follow orders and sit on their hands as things happen. 

[OzmO]

believe it or not - it's the thought that a large group would be willing to kill 3000 people that is hardest to accept - at least for me, but isn't it possible that the vast majority of the participants didn't actually know the entire scenario and or maybe they were told something different like the whole place was going to be evacuated and no one would get hurt.  No doubt a small core group would have to know the big picture but certainly not all the bit players. Also, humans have a large capacity for rationalization of heinious actions.   

All the other stuff - explosives, access, timing, etc... can be addressed - though I'm a bit short on time this morning and can't get sucked into this at the moment...running late already.

You can write down a plausible scenario on paper that might make sense but putting into practice is another thing entirely.   There are simply too many things involved to make it work with out getting caught.  Everything i put on there, would need direct knowledge to pull off.   and even then, we are talking about "why" would they even need to? 

Why slam planes into the WTC if you can secretly wired up the WTC's and blow them up without anyone knowing?   They (AQ) tried to do it before right?   So wire the them up and bring em down and blame AQ.   Far more simple then slamming planes into them and blowing the building up to make look like the planes brought it down.

Think it through SM.

Things like this are hard for people to accept.   They want to see an answer thats more meaningful than a lone gunman or 19 hijackers slamming planes into buildings.  But the facts speak for themselves and unless something other than speculation surfaces, the planes brought those buildings down.

[OzmO]

No.

6 months before 911, boeing announced it had the computer technology to remote control its planes.  it was an anti-terrorism move, since it meant they could force hijacked planes to land.  it was only available on a few models though - those being the same planes used on 911 coincidentally.  look it up.

it wouldnt take a hundred people.  it would take 1 computer program installed in the right places and a few guys to just follow orders and sit on their hands as things happen. 

Ahh yes.   You fly much?  I do.  I also have a great back ground and resources in air transportation.

-  Do have any idea how many checks those planes go through and how many independent safety systems/back ups there are on a boeing?
-  Do you realize along with ground crews, maintenance crews, air port security etc...  you'd have to get them to help commit the crime of the century?
-  It would not take a 1 computer program.   You have to install it, test it, get to function without detection etc... 
-  How about fake recordings of the hijackers and pilots?

Think about what you saying.  You are saying that becuase they have the technology to remotely fly a jet liner, that it proves those planes were remotely slammed into the WTC?

Real life is not the movies.

Think it through.   

19 hijackers did it.  With help from others of course, but not our government.

[OzmO]

Regarding the actual demo - clearly none of us here are experts but we should consider that if this was some sort of quasi-govt conspiracy they could have access to highly sophisticated explosives and other material that perhaps is not available for your every day run of the mill demo.   The whole process could be very different from what is done in a conventional demo.   Just something to keep in mind.

Also, a short video on thermite (I have no clue of the person in the vid is a quack or not - not time to cross reference stuff this morning).

Why should we consider a quasi gov conspiracy?  Because we speculate they can?  Because we think they have highly sophisticated explosives that could be hidden and covertly placed in the WTC's?  Come on ST.  Listen to yourself.


It there was anything to it, the majority of main stream scientists from around the world (not the just the USA) would be crying foul all day long.

[headhuntersix]

And not a thing went wrong....and people called from the plane that went into the ground in PA...they called home...talked to warm bodies...said people had the plane. People saw a jet hit the Pentagon....

[Mad Nickels]

19 hijackers did it.  With help from others of course, but not our government.

who?