Author Topic: The crash!  (Read 3394 times)

dogpound

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The crash!
« on: February 15, 2008, 11:21:09 AM »
Hey guys. Just curious, what exactly does the crash feel like when you come off the juice. I know it isn't good,but do you feel like total crap 24 hours a day? I know strength and size will go down, but mentally how bad is it?

Slintowin4424

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2008, 11:25:21 AM »
Bro it all depends on who you are but you have to come off in order to grow or those receptors will never clear...... Also I have never lost size strength yes but size no just eat and eat a lot......

dogpound

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 11:32:28 AM »
Thanks man! Actually, I haven't done any juice yet. I was more curious about the mental part because I have had depression in the past. I have felt good the last couple years with no medicine. I just did'nt want to revisit the depression stuff. It was bad.

candidate2025

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2008, 11:39:04 AM »
Bro it all depends on who you are but you have to come off in order to grow or those receptors will never clear...... Also I have never lost size strength yes but size no just eat and eat a lot......
what do you think about getting into ketosis during pct...so any time your body doesnt have nutrints it goes for fat instead of glucose(amino acids..)..think it would help keep size?   id be eating a to caloric surplus...but in ketosis...
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delta9mda

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2008, 12:33:51 PM »
what do you think about getting into ketosis during pct...so any time your body doesnt have nutrints it goes for fat instead of glucose(amino acids..)..think it would help keep size?   id be eating a to caloric surplus...but in ketosis...
amino acids are not glucose, hope this helps candy.

candidate2025

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 12:36:33 PM »
amino acids are not glucose, hope this helps candy.
;D ;D


 your an idiot. lol ;)
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4thAD

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 01:36:07 PM »
what do you think about getting into ketosis during pct...so any time your body doesnt have nutrints it goes for fat instead of glucose(amino acids..)..think it would help keep size?   id be eating a to caloric surplus...but in ketosis...

Have you ever been in ketosis. Your strength levels will fall lots and lots. The best idea is if you need to run a ketogenic diet do it before you run a cycle. Thats why the diet is also called the pre-steroid diet. The purpose of PCT is to get your body back to a state of homeostasis as fast as possible, and in opinion ketosis would defeat this purpose. You would lose strength and size, while trying to retain both.

Ketosis before cycle, and caloric overload after! When I say caloric overload I do not mean garbage.

4thAD

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2008, 01:41:06 PM »
Hey guys. Just curious, what exactly does the crash feel like when you come off the juice. I know it isn't good,but do you feel like total crap 24 hours a day? I know strength and size will go down, but mentally how bad is it?

If you follow HCG and PCT protocols I run, the crash will be very minimal. When you do start PCT it is important to keep motivation and calories all up. If you feel like getting lazy and sitting on the couch make your self get to the gym. This will separate successful cycles from unsuccessful cycles, you need to continue just like you were still on cycle. I cant stress this enough.

candidate2025

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 01:44:57 PM »
Have you ever been in ketosis. Your strength levels will fall lots and lots. The best idea is if you need to run a ketogenic diet do it before you run a cycle. Thats why the diet is also called the pre-steroid diet. The purpose of PCT is to get your body back to a state of homeostasis as fast as possible, and in opinion ketosis would defeat this purpose. You would lose strength and size, while trying to retain both.

Ketosis before cycle, and caloric overload after! When I say caloric overload I do not mean garbage.
bro thats complete bullshit. you will not get weaker as a result of ketosis.what will make you weaker is not getting enough protein and not getting enough calories.     

i dont eat much carbs anyways. so for me, homeostasis would be a low carb/semi keto diet anyway.
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4thAD

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2008, 01:50:34 PM »
To get into a state of ketosis, you will need extremely low amount of carbs. Go ahead and run a keto diet during PCT candy then go and tell me its BS. Ive run keto diets with high calories in the past and trust me your strength drops, especially when coming off of AAS.

Emmortal

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2008, 01:57:59 PM »
Yea it's bullshit because 4thAD has no clue what he's talking about  ::)

Sometimes you really frustrate me Cand.  I try to be as helpful as I can and chastise you only when it's absolutely necessary, but godamn man, you need to learn to take advice and ditch the know-it all attitude, seriously.  You are really going to turn a lot of people away from even replying to your posts and we have some really knowledgeable people here that know MUCH more than you because we've been through it and tried it.

Go ahead and do it your way and see how great you feel in PCT.  I know even when you feel like a lump of shit you'll still come on here telling us how great things are and that you are busting out PR's left and right anyway :/

4thAD

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2008, 02:06:41 PM »
Yea it's bullshit because 4thAD has no clue what he's talking about  ::)

Sometimes you really frustrate me Cand.  I try to be as helpful as I can and chastise you only when it's absolutely necessary, but godamn man, you need to learn to take advice and ditch the know-it all attitude, seriously.  You are really going to turn a lot of people away from even replying to your posts and we have some really knowledgeable people here that know MUCH more than you because we've been through it and tried it.

Go ahead and do it your way and see how great you feel in PCT.  I know even when you feel like a lump of shit you'll still come on here telling us how great things are and that you are busting out PR's left and right anyway :/


Haha your starting to show the frustrations of Trab! LMAO good shit bro...

thelamefalsehood

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2008, 04:43:19 PM »
To get into a state of ketosis, you will need extremely low amount of carbs. Go ahead and run a keto diet during PCT candy then go and tell me its BS. Ive run keto diets with high calories in the past and trust me your strength drops, especially when coming off of AAS.

My man 4thAD speaks the truth, dizzle. Going Keto during PCT is a very bad idea, your theory sounds okay, but in practice it simply will not work. Your strength will always drop when coming off AAS, subtract the carbs that were balooning those biceps up, and its a double whammy.

candidate2025

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2008, 04:49:31 PM »
well im on the anabolic diet right now...so carbss are not what are making me bigger.  (well, on the weekend they are)....   im just not doing a full keto during the week, becaus i dont monitor my "hidden carbs" like in nuts or greens...i just keep ALL starches, fruits, carbs, sugars out of my diet other than a cup or two of broccoli a day and peanut butter, almonds, eggs, and whats in my whey.     

honestly..i run much better on fats.   my fat metabolism is awesome. and i feel great on low/no carbs too.   i get moody and tired and wierd with carbs. constantly hungry too.
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Beener

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2008, 05:00:20 PM »
i get moody and tired and wierd with carbs. constantly hungry too.

You're runnin a cycle...you WANT to be hungry.

candidate2025

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2008, 05:03:46 PM »
bro i have no problems with appetite. when i say i am constantly hungry while eating carbs..i mean CONSTANTLY HUNGRY. on a high carb diet....i could get done eating two full boxes of cereal and 20 egg whites and a couple apples and i will STILL want to eat. its tough for me bro.


on a no carb diet..i get hungry very quickly, and i eat alot of food at each meal...but the difference is that im not obsessed with food, and i do get satiated after meals.      4-5 tablespoons of peanut should make pretty much anybody feel like they do ont need to eat any more.     
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4thAD

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2008, 05:20:41 PM »
Candy, I just read over on MD, where Derick Anthony (i know what some may say about DA, but you cant deny his physique) mentioned that he wishes he would have waited until he was older than 18 to start using gear. He say's 18 was way to young. You may want to re-think your position on this. Your awfully young to be messing with your still growing body. At least wait until your able to buy a beer.

candidate2025

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2008, 05:31:20 PM »
Candy, I just read over on MD, where Derick Anthony (i know what some may say about DA, but you cant deny his physique) mentioned that he wishes he would have waited until he was older than 18 to start using gear. He say's 18 was way to young. You may want to re-think your position on this. Your awfully young to be messing with your still growing body. At least wait until your able to buy a beer.
every pro bodybuilder started steroids at  or around 18..alot of them much younger.





this is my passion. 

 i dont give a fuck about anything else.


and im not doing it for any other reason than for MYSELF.   


...whether or not i ever make it pro, or amatuer, or hell, even if i never even place ina local level competition...none of that matters to me.

what matters to me is that i can look back and say that ive done everything i can to max my body out and create the best physique i possibly could, with what i was given to work with.



maybe you guys dont understand this. maybe you do.   ....but i truly, honestly, have no other real desires in my life besides bodybuilding.
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Arnold jr

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2008, 06:07:46 PM »
2 things. Crashing does not feel good...but honestly it can be minimized and be manageable...as well as short lived...after PCT is always the hardest part IMO.
Guys that suffer with depression, I can't imagine how hard coming off cycle could end up being for them.

As for the Keto diet and strength loss thing. Candy boy is right...there is no reason to lose strength on a keto diet...if your fat intake is high enough, then you will have strength...not gain strength but you should be able to maintain.

Another note on keto diets...it should be about 50g of carbs per day...not zero. At about 50g your body is still in ketosis, any higher and it's not...the good thing about this is that 50g of carbs per day along with the fat in your diet is enough to sustain you in the gym...if you work a hard manual labor job, well then this would make things difficult.

Final note on this. Once you start with a keto diet you will have an initial dramatic weight loss...this will be all water so no need to freak. Granted, once you lose all this water your strength will go down a touch but it should level off from there.

candidate2025

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2008, 06:12:34 PM »
2 things. Crashing does not feel good...but honestly it can be minimized and be manageable...as well as short lived...after PCT is always the hardest part IMO.
Guys that suffer with depression, I can't imagine how hard coming off cycle could end up being for them.

As for the Keto diet and strength loss thing. Candy boy is right...there is no reason to lose strength on a keto diet...if your fat intake is high enough, then you will have strength...not gain strength but you should be able to maintain.

Another note on keto diets...it should be about 50g of carbs per day...not zero. At about 50g your body is still in ketosis, any higher and it's not...the good thing about this is that 50g of carbs per day along with the fat in your diet is enough to sustain you in the gym...if you work a hard manual labor job, well then this would make things difficult.

Final note on this. Once you start with a keto diet you will have an initial dramatic weight loss...this will be all water so no need to freak. Granted, once you lose all this water your strength will go down a touch but it should level off from there.
thanks for the back up arnoldjr...     i know your a big advocate of the palumbo diet.   

i have, in the past, slipped in and out of minor episodes of depression. so i think for me being in ketosis pct will be a good thing for many reasons. 
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4thAD

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2008, 06:55:08 PM »
Here is the Keto diet I have run in the past. It works, but I never felt the strength increase, or feeling of well being. I got this from off another board posted by Mr.E. I ran this diet to a "T" I may give it another try...

 Ketogenic Diet for pre steroid use.
For you over weight who need to cut down before you start using you should try the ketogenic diet for two months. If you have the discipline to stick with this you will shed your fat suit and also prove to yourself that your ready for the next step. If you can't stick to it then maybe your not ready for steroids quite yet.

What is a Ketogenic Diet? For starters, ketogenic dieting is based upon the removal of nearly all the carbohydrates form one's diet for a certain period of time. In the absence of carbohydrates, the body will resort to stored fat as it's primary fuel source. Stored fat is broken down into ketones which the body then uses for energy. In order to enter this state of ketosis, one's liver glycogen must be emptied. Ingested carbohydrates are stored in the liver as glycogen, as well as in the muscles. When the liver is deplented of glycogen, a state of ketosis is achieved. Ketones are a by-product of fat burning, therefore while in a state of ketosis, the body is burning stored fat as it's main source of fuel. I'll bypass the explanation as to why this is such a positive occurence.


The object of a ketogenic diet is to deplete the liver of it's glycogen stores as quickly as possible so that fat burning occurs. This is done by severely restricting carbohydrates and eating only sources of proteins and fats. On a Cycical Ketogenic Diet (CKD) carbohydrate restriction lasts for a total of 5-6 days at which time a 1-2 day carbohydrate loading phase designed to replenish Muscle Glycogen stores so that adequate weight training may occur during the following week.
Many people have brought up the issue that a low carbohydrate diet will cause lethargy and weakness. These people were not mentally strong enough to make it through the first few days until they reached a state of ketosis so they experienced the basic lethargy typically associated with low carb diets. They also did not replace any of the missing calories with fat which caused them to feel mesierable due to a lack of adequate calories. They did'nt give themselves or the diet a chance to adapt. Just like with anything else, there is a period of adaptation.
This is not a low carbodydrate diet. It is essentially a NO carbohydrate diet. While on a LOW carb. diet, enough carbs are always eaten to avoid entering into a state of ketosis but not enough carbs or total calories to maintain adequate energy levels. Dropping the carbohydrate count further and raising the fat calories will allow the body to enter ketosis and use ketones, or stored fat as fuel. While in a state of ketosis, one feels energetic and does not experience the general lethargy found with basic LOW carb. diets. Ketones also enable one to naintain regulated insulin levels thoughout the day which again will cause one to feel energetic. Below we can see the difference between a basic low carb diet and the Ketogenic diet.
Basic LOW Carb diet:
*weakness
*lethargy
*low insulin levels
*constant hunger
*moderate fat burning
*muscle loss
*low fat intake
*excessively low total calories

KETOGENIC DIET:
*energy'
*workout intensity
*feelings of well-being
*full and satisfied
*high fat intake
*high level of fat burning'
*minimal muscle loss
*total calories no more than 500 below maintenance

During the carbohydrate depletion phase (during the week) carbohydrate foods such as fruit, breads, grains, candies, cookies, deserts, catsup, dressings, cereals, etc., are not permitted at all. One must check the lable of eveything to ensure that there are no carbs. The key is to keep the daily carb count of 20-40 per day. Some people even require less that 20 to achieve ketosis. This basically allose you a total of roughly 4-8 grams of carbs per meal which would preferalbly come in the form of green vegetables. Watch the dressings as they all have carbs with the exception of vinegar. The only condiments that you can be safe with are mustard and regular, whole mayonnaise.
While on a CKD, one must tailor their workouts to center arount the diet. The carb depletion would begin of Monday and between Monday-Wednesday, the entire body would be trained with weights. In other words, condence the workouts to that they are completed by Wednensay. This will exhaust both your liver glycogen as well as your muscle glycogen. Cardio may continue to be done all week.
At the end of the week, one would perform a grueling full body weight training session after which time the carb loading would begin.
The carb loading may last anywhere between 12-36 hours although I feel it is best to minimize it to 12-18 hours. It consists of basically a full day of cheating (but there are rules). You need jto consume carbs in each meal ranging from 40-120, depending upon the person. The protein stays high but fats must be limited or the total carlories will be too high and new fat will be stored. The idea is refill muscle glycogen so that workouts may be performed with some amount of intensity the following week. Fruits are to be avoided as fructose will only refill liver glycogen which will prevent ketosis form being reestablished until laterin the week. After the carb loak is complete, the depletion phase begins again until the next weekend, During the carb load period, and carbs may be eaten so long as the fat is kept moderately low and there is no fructose consumed.
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Arnold jr

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2008, 09:39:32 PM »
I'd imagine that you would feel like crap on that diet...at least a large portion of the time.

With the type of keto diet I like, you don't get that huge carb up...you don't need it.

The reason you would feel bad on the diet listed above is because you are constantly going through that depletion stage...over and over again.

With the way I do it, you do feel like crap at the beginning...usually about the 2nd day into it. For most people this crappy feeling will last only a few days...4-5. For a few others it can take as long as say 10 days or so. However, once you get past that initial stage, once your body gets into full blown ketosis, it's a pretty easy diet to maintain and follow...most simply can't hack that initial start up.

When you do a diet like the one posted above, you are once per wk throwing yourself completely out of ketosis there for you end up having to repeat the sucky part over and over again...make sense?

On the type of Keto diet I like, the Dave method, you do end up eating once cheat meal per wk...1 meal, not a cheat day. This is not enough to throw you out of ketosis...it takes more then 1 meal, but it provides a good shock to your body to keep the fat burning firing...as well as ensuring sanity is maintained, lol!

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2008, 07:33:34 AM »
Crashing from gear is real.  Gear alters your brain chemistry plenty.  Coming away from it brings up tons of stuff, both mental and physical.

For me I have a tendency to get a bit down from it when the gains start to go and the fat starts to come on.  Mentally you see it as the end of a goal you have reached and "now what?"  So this can be hard, you may lose your direction at this time.  Thats why people want to get back on so soon after.  This attitude will most likely lead to abuse.

Your body may also have a hard time readjusting after a cycle and the longer you are on the worse it will be.  I have a tendency to get sick or become injured at this time.  Then add the mild post cycle depression to that and you could be in for a rough ride.

powerpack

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2008, 07:55:40 AM »
My first cycle was a Test only cycle in 1989.
They never had PCT in those days.
In fact no one told us about the crash.
When I came off I suffered depression, lethargy, sore joints and no sex drive.
I lost all my agression, power and endurance which was bad as I was active in competitive sports.
With no PCT even though the cycle was only 6 weeks long it took me more than 6 months to recover  :(
After this it took me nearly 16 years to use juice again as the experiance had left a bad taste in my mouth.
A few years ago I started juicing gain for a while, I kept my cycles moderate and even with proper PCT and recovery times I had problems comming off.
Feeling constantly down afterwards for me was always a big factor.

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Re: The crash!
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2008, 09:44:12 AM »
AJ would you outline your keto diet in this thread please? I would def like to give it a go. Im trying to get into single digit bf%.