Author Topic: Obama may face grilling on patriotism  (Read 5323 times)

youandme

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2008, 09:10:27 PM »


I am not happy with the top 3.  Looks like I'll be holding my nose again in November.  :-\   

But your going to vote right?

We will always be voting for the lesser of two evils.

Although can't say the same for B. Clinton like him or love him he did alot for our country.

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2008, 09:11:16 PM »
Yes I made assumptions about her comments, just like you put the best possible spin on her comments.  We're both making assumptions. 
 

There's nothing to spin about her comment.   the spinning happening is your assumptions of what she meant by it.  My assumptions are far more objective, realistic and likely.

[quote
You have not been proud of your country at all the past 5 years?  Sounds like an overstatement.  If you're not overstating things, then I'd say you have a warped view of your country. ][/quote]

No i'm not.  Call it inspirational  dissatisfaction if you like.   I believe we've lost touch with our heart and soul that makes our country great.  The thing that really topped it off, was the democrats.  i could on and on.  It doesn't change my love for America or my desire to make it better.  That's what's she's doing, in her way. 

Quote
There is nothing unpatriotic about questioning your country's leadership, decisions, policies, etc.  I do it all the time.  That's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about a woman saying she has not been proud of her country in her entire adult life (more than 20 years).

exactly.   However it is more than obvious what she was talking about unless you just desire to fully hold on the grammar becuase you are justifying your dislike for her and her husband.  And, there is nothing wrong with her statement unless you agree with the leadership in anyway in the last 20 years.  In which case you'd simply disagree....

Quote
I'm not in any corner.  I stand by my criticism of her comments.  And no I'm not motivated by dislike for Obama.

It's ok to admit it.   ;)

Quote
I am not happy with the top 3.  Looks like I'll be holding my nose again in November.  Undecided

Nearly everyone i talk to says pretty much the same thing   :'(

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2008, 09:50:32 PM »
But your going to vote right?

We will always be voting for the lesser of two evils.

Although can't say the same for B. Clinton like him or love him he did alot for our country.

Absolutely mang.  I'll always vote.  Isn't it a crying shame we can't get our best, brightest, and most qualified to run?   :-\

calmus

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2008, 09:52:43 PM »
Isn't it a crying shame we can't get our best, brightest, and most qualified to run?   :-\

 ::)

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2008, 12:52:19 AM »

The president has to be a big cheerleader. 

His primary job is to man the bully pulpit and make everyone feel good; be proud to be an American. 

This is correct.

Might be hard for some to unravel their 6th grade social studies book, but the president doesn't sit down and make all the major decisions... he sells them to the world.  Does anyone *really* think the massive plan to sell WMD lie, topple saddam, install puppet gov, grab oil, build bases, surround iran, was Bush's creation?  hahahahah

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2008, 02:58:42 PM »
Obama's response:

Obama fights back on questions about his patriotism
     
(CNN) -- Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama defended himself and his wife Sunday against suggestions that they are insufficiently patriotic.

Sen. Barack Obama defended himself and his wife against recent suggestions that they are not patriotic.

Asked during a town hall meeting in Lorain, Ohio, about "an attempt by conservatives and Republicans to paint you as unpatriotic," a questioner cited the fact that Obama once failed to put his hand over his heart while singing the national anthem.

The questioner also noted that the Illinois senator does not wear an American flag lapel pin, has met with former members of the radical anti-Vietnam War group, Weather Underground, and his wife was quoted recently as saying she never felt really proud of the United States until recently.

Asked how he would fight the image of being unpatriotic, Obama said, "There's always some nonsense going on in general elections. Right? If it wasn't this, it would be something else. If you recall, first it was my name. Right? That was a problem. And then there was the Muslim e-mail thing and that hasn't worked out so well, and now it's the patriotism thing.

"The way I will respond to it is with the truth: that I owe everything I am to this country," he said. Obama said it was a speech about his love for this country that put him in the national spotlight. He shot down the idea that failing to put his hand over his heart during the national anthem makes him unpatriotic.

"If that were the case, that would disqualify about three-quarters of the people who have ever gone to a football game or baseball game."

Obama said his wife, Michelle, had already explained her comments. "She simply misspoke," he said. "What she was referring to was this was the first time she has been proud of politics in America. 
"That's true of a lot of people who have been cynical and disenchanted. And she's spoken about how she has been cynical about American politics for a very long time, but she's proud of how people are participating and getting involved in ways that they haven't in a very long time."

About not wearing an American flag lapel pin, Obama said Republicans have no lock on patriotism.

"A party that presided over a war in which our troops did not get the body armor they needed, or were sending troops over who were untrained because of poor planning, or are not fulfilling the veterans' benefits that these troops need when they come home, or are undermining our Constitution with warrantless wiretaps that are unnecessary?

"That is a debate I am very happy to have. We'll see what the American people think is the true definition of patriotism."

Obama did not respond to the question about the Weather Underground, a group whose members bombed the U.S. Capitol and the Pentagon during the 1970s.

Last week, the New York Sun reported that as an Illinois state senator in 2001, Obama accepted a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founder of the group who was not convicted for the bombings and now works as a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

But the paper said that, in a statement, a spokesman for the Obama campaign, William Burton, said, "Sen. Obama strongly condemns the violent actions of the Weathermen group, as he does all acts of violence ... But he was an eight-year-old child when Ayers and the Weathermen were active, and any attempt to connect Obama with events of almost 40 years ago is ridiculous."

Former first lady Sen. Hillary Clinton has said repeatedly that she is a stronger candidate because she has already shown she can withstand conservative attacks.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/24/obama.patriotism/index.html

Straw Man

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2008, 03:48:58 PM »
The topic of Obama's patriotism seems a bit lame to me but I have friends and (sadly) a family member in Texas who believe one of more of the following is literally true:

1.  Obama is a practising Muslim
2.  Obama is a member of Al Queda
3.  Obama's loyalty is not for the USA (though unable to define to whom he is loyal)
4.  His middle name of Hussein is deeply significant and proof of "something"

Personally I couldn't give a rats ass if he doesn't wear a flag lapel pin but I think it's pretty stupid to let himself be photographed/video taped in this particular situation.  He's standing on stage with a bunch of other politicians and, whatever his reasoning (if there is any) I think this just looks bad in contrast.  It's not like he's at a baseball game with his buddies



       

Decker

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2008, 04:04:05 PM »
Not stupid questions at all.  I wouldn't call him un-American, but the flag pin, pledge, and his wife’s comments are pretty dumb moves.  The president has to be a big cheerleader.  His primary job is to man the bully pulpit and make everyone feel good; be proud to be an American.  That was one of the major distinctions between Carter and Reagan.  If this guy is going to do things like not put his hand over his heart during the pledge, he's going to, among other things, offend veterans all over the place.  It's disrespectful (if true).  And it really doesn't take much to avoid these things from becoming an issue.  Does this disqualify him from office?  No.  Does it raise questions about his judgment?  Absolutely. 
Don't fall for it Beach Bum.  These attacks come right out of the Fascist playbook.  It's not like Obama traded arms with Iran or attacked another country in a naked war of aggression--those are truly unpatriotic acts.

Stand tall with Rush Limbaugh against these foolish consistencies allegedly aligned with patriotic behavior--symbolic flag buttons or the hand on the heart during the pledge....crapola...reme mber, we don't pledge shit to the flag--it's just a symbol...we pledge allegiance to our constitution.

Remember what Rush hates "Symbolism over substance"...

Then again, He must not have seen that pathetic display at the SOTU where all the republican free-thinkers waved their ink stained fingers wildly in the air to show symbolic support for Iraqi elections.

.....I still get shivers thinking about that profound moment.

headhuntersix

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2008, 04:16:11 PM »
Its easy to say all this stuff about Patriotism when U've never had to do anything about it. The flag means alot to some of us. The Pledge means something...I would expect the President to be a super patriot but again when ur a Lib I guess America means something different to u then the rest of us.
L

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2008, 04:21:38 PM »
Its easy to say all this stuff about Patriotism when U've never had to do anything about it. The flag means alot to some of us. The Pledge means something...I would expect the President to be a super patriot but again when ur a Lib I guess America means something different to u then the rest of us.

Had to?

Are you referring to volunteering for military service?

I would expect people to be intelligent enough to recognize blatant manipulation and propaganda.

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2008, 04:24:05 PM »


Asked how he would fight the image of being unpatriotic, Obama said, "There's always some nonsense going on in general elections. Right? If it wasn't this, it would be something else. If you recall, first it was my name. Right? That was a problem. And then there was the Muslim e-mail thing and that hasn't worked out so well, and now it's the patriotism thing.

"The way I will respond to it is with the truth: that I owe everything I am to this country," he said. Obama said it was a speech about his love for this country that put him in the national spotlight. He shot down the idea that failing to put his hand over his heart during the national anthem makes him unpatriotic.

"If that were the case, that would disqualify about three-quarters of the people who have ever gone to a football game or baseball game."

Obama said his wife, Michelle, had already explained her comments. "She simply misspoke," he said. "What she was referring to was this was the first time she has been proud of politics in America. 
"That's true of a lot of people who have been cynical and disenchanted. And she's spoken about how she has been cynical about American politics for a very long time, but she's proud of how people are participating and getting involved in ways that they haven't in a very long time."



Funny that the obvious has to be explained.

headhuntersix

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2008, 04:38:19 PM »
Had to?

Are you referring to volunteering for military service?

I would expect people to be intelligent enough to recognize blatant manipulation and propaganda.

Because u wear a lapel pin and do the Pledge ur falling for propaganda? Libs wonder why Conservatives believe things like "blame America First". It exists...wander over to the Huffington Post. Read the threads on the Nancy Reagan fall and the Castro stuff from last week.
L

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2008, 04:45:30 PM »
Don't fall for it Beach Bum.  These attacks come right out of the Fascist playbook.  It's not like Obama traded arms with Iran or attacked another country in a naked war of aggression--those are truly unpatriotic acts.

Stand tall with Rush Limbaugh against these foolish consistencies allegedly aligned with patriotic behavior--symbolic flag buttons or the hand on the heart during the pledge....crapola...reme mber, we don't pledge shit to the flag--it's just a symbol...we pledge allegiance to our constitution.

Remember what Rush hates "Symbolism over substance"...

Then again, He must not have seen that pathetic display at the SOTU where all the republican free-thinkers waved their ink stained fingers wildly in the air to show symbolic support for Iraqi elections.

.....I still get shivers thinking about that profound moment.

I don't listen to Rush. 

I have no problem criticizing someone who wants to be president when they exercise poor judgment.  It's sort of ironic that when people question things like not putting his hand over his heart during the pledge the people who question him get accused of "fascism" or trampling on the First Amendment.   

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2008, 04:47:28 PM »
Its easy to say all this stuff about Patriotism when U've never had to do anything about it. The flag means alot to some of us. The Pledge means something...I would expect the President to be a super patriot but again when ur a Lib I guess America means something different to u then the rest of us.

Exactly.  A person who wants to be president has to avoid such obvious gaffes.

headhuntersix

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2008, 05:02:29 PM »
The fascist term gets thrown around alot. Considering classical fascism call for the government to control everything and crushes individualism...who does that sound like.

Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage....doesn't sound alot like the Republican party or the Conservative movement.

How many times do u see young Republican's being shouted down on college campuses or Conservative speakers interrupted.
L

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2008, 05:16:09 PM »
The fascist term gets thrown around alot. Considering classical fascism call for the government to control everything and crushes individualism...who does that sound like.

Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage....doesn't sound alot like the Republican party or the Conservative movement.

How many times do u see young Republican's being shouted down on college campuses or Conservative speakers interrupted.

 :o    :-X

OzmO

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2008, 06:14:33 PM »
Because u wear a lapel pin and do the Pledge ur falling for propaganda? Libs wonder why Conservatives believe things like "blame America First". It exists...wander over to the Huffington Post. Read the threads on the Nancy Reagan fall and the Castro stuff from last week.

no  lol.  com on hh6, you really didn't think that did you?

It's because propaganda is making you think that someone who doesn't put their hand on the heart when they say the pledge or wear a lapel pin isn't patriotic.


unbelievable. 

War-Horse

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2008, 08:52:46 PM »
The fascist term gets thrown around alot. Considering classical fascism call for the government to control everything and crushes individualism...who does that sound like.

Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage....doesn't sound alot like the Republican party or the Conservative movement.

How many times do u see young Republican's being
shouted down on college campuses or Conservative speakers interrupted.






One simularity To notice, is Hitler Occupied, war-mongered and bullied other nations to spread his Ideals around..........Sounds like he was a Republican in that venture.

Deedee

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2008, 09:16:25 PM »
Headhunter doesn't use words like "ardent."  ;) He's quoting from an idiot named Jonah Goldberg. Lol, what horse excrement. Apparently, he also thinks organic food is fascist. Jon Stewart had fun with him.

http://tv.popcrunch.com/daily-show-january-15-jonah-goldberg-author-of-liberal-fascism-video/

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2008, 09:22:51 PM »
Who the fuck was singing that national anthem? Whoa, that sucked.

Decker

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2008, 07:06:38 AM »
Its easy to say all this stuff about Patriotism when U've never had to do anything about it. The flag means alot to some of us. The Pledge means something...I would expect the President to be a super patriot but again when ur a Lib I guess America means something different to u then the rest of us.
Why do you think that I have not done anything about my patriotism?

Do you have a different sense of nationalism b/c you decided to join up with the military?

Do you think that makes you more of an american than me?  I don't.

I don't pledge allegiance to a flag.  I did when I was a child but I didn't know any better then.  Now I do.


Decker

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2008, 07:23:08 AM »
The fascist term gets thrown around alot. Considering classical fascism call for the government to control everything and crushes individualism...who does that sound like.

Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage....doesn't sound alot like the Republican party or the Conservative movement.

How many times do u see young Republican's being shouted down on college campuses or Conservative speakers interrupted.
I'm not sure what Classical Fascism is but I do know that Mussolini coined 'fascism' as the corporatization of government supported by force of extreme nationalism where the individual is subordinated to the corporatized state.

That sounds like the Bush administration if you ask me--all the key watchdog positions in gov. are filled by corporate cronies (foxes watching the henhouse), trampling 4th, 6th, and 8th amendment rights so that the president can 'keep us safe'...

Here we go again.  The Nazis were not Socialists.  Ok?  Does this sound like the workers owning/controlling the means of production:

..the Nazis achieved rearmament through deficit spending. One of our respondents has correctly pointed out that they actively discouraged demand increases because they wanted infrastructure investment. Under the Reich, corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts. Hardly a socialist economic agenda !

http://www.politicalcompass.org/faq#faq18

Hitler did take good care of the German people...with the resources he murdered for and plundered from other countries.  That sounds familiar too...doesn't it?

Decker

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2008, 07:29:36 AM »
...It's sort of ironic that when people question things like not putting his hand over his heart during the pledge the people who question him get accused of "fascism" or trampling on the First Amendment.   
I see no irony in labeling a man through innuendo as 'unpatriotic'.  Do you? 

You elevate that which is unimportant--hand on the heart or flag in the lapel--as an issue of sober consequence which has the ?intended? result of besmirching a candidate's character and, by extension, his fitness for high office.

That game is of the extreme 'nationalism' with grounds in fascism Beach Bum. 

Decker

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2008, 07:46:46 AM »
Headhunter doesn't use words like "ardent."  ;) He's quoting from an idiot named Jonah Goldberg. Lol, what horse excrement. Apparently, he also thinks organic food is fascist. Jon Stewart had fun with him.

http://tv.popcrunch.com/daily-show-january-15-jonah-goldberg-author-of-liberal-fascism-video/
Jonah Goldberg is such an amateur. 

And a horrible deceiver too.  He really tells it like it ain't.

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Re: Obama may face grilling on patriotism
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2008, 08:25:32 AM »
I pledge allegience to the flag.  When I was a teacher, I made all my students do it, even though some teachers let them work thru it.   The USA ain't perfect, but it's still the only place I'd want to live.  When you get older and learn how things really work, well, then you can make your own decision.  But when youre young, a sense of nationalism is a good thing.