Obama may face grilling on patriotism

[headhuntersix]

So u don't do the Pledge...what exactly do u like about this country. I really don't understand libs...move then if we're so bad. If u don't like America, revolt, run for office. Do u really think anything will change with Obama in office.

[War-Horse]

I'm not sure what Classical Fascism is but I do know that Mussolini coined 'fascism' as the corporatization of government supported by force of extreme nationalism where the individual is subordinated to the corporatized state.

That sounds like the Bush administration if you ask me--all the key watchdog positions in gov. are filled by corporate cronies (foxes watching the henhouse), trampling 4th, 6th, and 8th amendment rights so that the president can 'keep us safe'...

Here we go again.  The Nazis were not Socialists.  Ok?  Does this sound like the workers owning/controlling the means of production:

..the Nazis achieved rearmament through deficit spending. One of our respondents has correctly pointed out that they actively discouraged demand increases because they wanted infrastructure investment. Under the Reich, corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts. Hardly a socialist economic agenda !

http://www.politicalcompass.org/faq#faq18

Hitler did take good care of the German people...with the resources he murdered for and plundered from other countries.  That sounds familiar too...doesn't it?

Decker just flat out ,makes sense when he posts.

[Dos Equis]

I see no irony in labeling a man through innuendo as 'unpatriotic'.  Do you? 

You elevate that which is unimportant--hand on the heart or flag in the lapel--as an issue of sober consequence which has the ?intended? result of besmirching a candidate's character and, by extension, his fitness for high office.

That game is of the extreme 'nationalism' with grounds in fascism Beach Bum. 

I see no irony in labeling certain comments "unpatriotic" if the statements are unpatriotic. 

I didn't make this man's conduct news.  He's the dummy who refused to put his hand over his heart during the pledge and refuses to wear a flag pin to try and prove a point.  Not a smart move on his part.  I will continue to criticize such foolish conduct of any man who wants to be president.     

[Decker]

So u don't do the Pledge...what exactly do u like about this country. I really don't understand libs...move then if we're so bad. If u don't like America, revolt, run for office. Do u really think anything will change with Obama in office.

Freedom is dicey topic.  We try to maximize not only liberty of our person but of our thoughts and expression as well.  When you start measuring a man by the pledges he makes instead of his acts/accomplishments/ideas, you get a big steaming pile of results.   Sort of like having an electroshock cap on everyone so that they correctly pledge to the country.

How many hoops must a man jump through to prove he's not a commie?

The Pledge is a thoughtless gesture that debases true americans.  I don't pledge a damn thing to the flag.  I don't care if the flag is burned.  I don't care if a biker chick makes a seductive top out of it.  And while we are at it, I don't really care if the Constitution goes up in flames either.  The ideas that support those things are what's important.  And thinking--improving our thinking--refining our thinking---is what it's all about.

Or we could just continue with mindless pledges...over and over again...as if they mean something new and fresh each time.

As I have said before, I love my country and I support the constitution.  

My ideas are American and I don't want to move.  Why don't you think of relocating abroad with your compulsory pledges if you don't like it.  If America's greatness is captured by the Pledge, I'm sure you'll find many converts to your way of thinking.

I like the free exchange of ideas here.

[Decker]

I see no irony in labeling certain comments "unpatriotic" if the statements are unpatriotic. 

I didn't make this man's conduct news.  He's the dummy who refused to put his hand over his heart during the pledge and refuses to wear a flag pin to try and prove a point.  Not a smart move on his part.  I will continue to criticize such foolish conduct of any man who wants to be president.     

I'm beginning to like this Obama guy.  It takes a certain amount of stones to stand up to the rightwing nationalistic liberal media.

He's not towing the nationalistic line and that's something that should be applauded...not scorned.

[Dos Equis]

I'm beginning to like this Obama guy.  It takes a certain amount of stones to stand up to the rightwing nationalistic liberal media.

He's not towing the nationalistic line and that's something that should be applauded...not scorned.

It's more along the lines of stupidity.  You don't alienate a substantial portion of the voting population when you're trying to earn their votes. 

[Decker]

Decker just flat out ,makes sense when he posts.

That's right kind of you mister.

[War-Horse]

It's more along the lines of stupidity.  You don't alienate a substantial portion of the voting population when you're trying to earn their votes. 

Fuck the pledge...........bush destroyed any pride or allegiance long ago.    Thats why Obama is doing so well, hes saying we can change course with actions people want........not the usual rhetoric of "Fear mongering" as bushy repeats as nauseum.

[Decker]

It's more along the lines of stupidity.  You don't alienate a substantial portion of the voting population when you're trying to earn their votes. 

Maybe you're seeing something different when you are viewing the record crowds showing up to see the man and hear him speak.

His base is not the nutty 19% that still support Bush and his war.  They would never vote for a democrat for president even if he were the only man running in the race.

I think Obama is quite intelligent.  I don't agree with him on some subjects but he would make a superior leader compared to what we are saddled with at the moment.

[Dos Equis]

Maybe you're seeing something different when you are viewing the record crowds showing up to see the man and hear him speak.

His base is not the nutty 19% that still support Bush and his war.  They would never vote for a democrat for president even if he were the only man running in the race.

I think Obama is quite intelligent.  I don't agree with him on some subjects but he would make a superior leader compared to what we are saddled with at the moment.

Hillary draws huge crowds too.  Either one will need much more than Democrat supporters to win the general.  They need some crossover votes and swing voters (like me) to carry the day.  He lost me when he started talking about his agenda, but some of his conduct will not have many conservatives and independents voting for him. 

Sure he's smart.  Everyone still in the race is smart.  What I see is a borderline socialist, based on what he wants to do for our country. 

[Straw Man]

It's more along the lines of stupidity.  You don't alienate a substantial portion of the voting population when you're trying to earn their votes. 

Damn, I can't believe that I agree with you on something but then I think I alluded to this same point before.  These things (hand over heart, pledge and the a much lesser extent the lapel pin) are symbolic gestures that are significant to alot of people.  If he is going to make these an issue then he should be explicit about his reasoning.   My personal view is that he should be aware that the right wing media will take these small things and make them the ONLY issue for a lot of people.  

On the plus side, if he really is taking a stand on this very minor issues then hopefully he will exhibit the same fortitude on real issues when he becomes POTUS

[Straw Man]

  What I see is a borderline socialist, based on what he wants to do for our country. 

How in the world are you drawing this conclusion?

[Dos Equis]

Damn, I can't believe that I agree with you on something but then I think I alluded to this same point before.  These things (hand over heart, pledge and the a much lesser extent the lapel pin) are symbolic gestures that are significant to alot of people.  If he is going to make these an issue then he should be explicit about his reasoning.   My personal view is that he should be aware that the right wing media will take these small things and make them the ONLY issue for a lot of people.  

On the plus side, if he really is taking a stand on this very minor issues then hopefully he will exhibit the same fortitude on real issues when he becomes POTUS

Just don't make it a habit.   

I agree.  When the election will likely be very close again, you can't afford to dismiss large segments of the voting population.  I'm sure active duty and retired military people have to be put off by this kind of stuff. 

[Decker]

Damn, I can't believe that I agree with you on something but then I think I alluded to this same point before.  These things (hand over heart, pledge and the a much lesser extent the lapel pin) are symbolic gestures that are significant to alot of people.  If he is going to make these an issue then he should be explicit about his reasoning.   My personal view is that he should be aware that the right wing media will take these small things and make them the ONLY issue for a lot of people.  

On the plus side, if he really is taking a stand on this very minor issues then hopefully he will exhibit the same fortitude on real issues when he becomes POTUS

Where did Obama open up with his platform plank about the pledge and lapel pins?  The liberal media will bomb this guy for whatever he does.  They'll even make shit up like they did with Gore.

So I'm not too concerned about swaying a certain segment of the US population that follows that minutia.

[Decker]

Hillary draws huge crowds too.  Either one will need much more than Democrat supporters to win the general.  They need some crossover votes and swing voters (like me) to carry the day.  He lost me when he started talking about his agenda, but some of his conduct will not have many conservatives and independents voting for him. 

Sure he's smart.  Everyone still in the race is smart.  What I see is a borderline socialist, based on what he wants to do for our country. 

But did he lose you b/c of the pressing flag lapel button issue?

[Dos Equis]

How in the world are you drawing this conclusion?

What I have gleaned from his speeches is this:  he wants a federal takeover of the entire healthcare system, raise taxes on the "wealthy" for the benefit of the "middle class," use the government to ensure everyone has an equal economic opportunity, rather than relying primarily on the private sector.  Every time I hear him talk specifics, it involves expanding the federal government.  

[Straw Man]

Just don't make it a habit.   

I doubt that will be a problem.

[Dos Equis]

But did he lose you b/c of the pressing flag lapel button issue?

Nope.  Before.  I wouldn't base my vote on a flag pin.  Even though I wear one everyday.   

[Straw Man]

Where did Obama open up with his platform plank about the pledge and lapel pins?  The liberal media will bomb this guy for whatever he does.  They'll even make shit up like they did with Gore.

So I'm not too concerned about swaying a certain segment of the US population that follows that minutia.

I'm not concerned with minutia either and as I said before I couldn't give a rat's ass about a lapel pin.   Regarding the National Anthem in that video, personally I think he was just spacing out and now is backpedaling and trying to cover his ass with some lame excuse.   I dont' think he was making an issue about it either but by being careless (IMO) he has allowed it to become the ONLY issue for a lot of people - granted mostly for those who would never consider voting for him in the first place.  

[Decker]

What I have gleaned from his speeches is this:  he wants a federal takeover of the entire healthcare system, raise taxes on the "wealthy" for the benefit of the "middle class," use the government to ensure everyone has an equal economic opportunity, rather than relying primarily on the private sector.  Every time I hear him talk specifics, it involves expanding the federal government.  

Every presidential candidate talks about shrinking government to win.  They are all liars.  At least this guy is being up front.

[Straw Man]

What I have gleaned from his speeches is this:  he wants a federal takeover of the entire healthcare system, raise taxes on the "wealthy" for the benefit of the "middle class," use the government to ensure everyone has an equal economic opportunity, rather than relying primarily on the private sector.  Every time I hear him talk specifics, it involves expanding the federal government.  

FYI - the federal government is already involved in healthcare.  The Dems are taking it on because the skyrocketing costs are huge problem for their constituents (actually to everyone but I never hear the Repugs talk about it much).   If you're not aware of what's happened to the middle class in this country in the last 30 years and also not aware of why that's significant for everyone in the country and the health of our country in general then there's no point in trying to explain it in this thread

Last point - Bush has presided over the largest expansion in the federal governement and public debt of any president ever so I guess by your metric he's a socialist too.

[Dos Equis]

Every presidential candidate talks about shrinking government to win.  They are all liars.  At least this guy is being up front.

I don't know that every candidate intends to increase the size of the federal government.  I certainly don't support someone who wants to do what this guy wants.  Not good for the country IMO.  

[Decker]

I don't know that every candidate intends to increase the size of the federal government.  I certainly don't support someone who wants to do what this guy wants.  Not good for the country IMO.  

Your main beef seems to be UHC.  See StrawMan's post for why it's a good idea.

A healthy country is a productive country.  And Obama/the democrats are upfront about it.

They don't hide the costs of their programs with borrowing from Red China.

[Deedee]

Jonah Goldberg is such an amateur. 

And a horrible deceiver too.  He really tells it like it ain't.

I know.  I just love this new fascism spin to the same old, same old.  It's beyond hilarious.

I don't know why I stupidly work.  I think I'm going to call myself Mama Love and start a cult-like, religious movement with socio-political implications. The book writing part of it will be a snap... I'll just spin some lame Nazi association (seems to be "this year's fashion") to liberalism and democracy and voila... I'll have produced absolute shit between a cover that I can sell for $49.99 to frightened, naive people and make a fortune.  

[loco]

In October, Obama told Iowa television station KCRG that he decided to stop wearing a U.S. flag lapel pin during the run-up to the Iraq war because it had become "a substitute for, I think, true patriotism."

"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great and, hopefully, that will be a testimony to my patriotism," Obama said.

Who?  Who does not want to wear the ribbon...pin?