Author Topic: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...  (Read 7223 times)

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2008, 06:31:06 PM »
High-Calorie Diet Fattens Gitmo Inmates

By MICHAEL MELIA
The Associated Press
Tuesday, October 3, 2006; 11:08 PM

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico -- A high-calorie diet combined with life in the cell block _ almost around the clock in some cases _ is making detainees at Guantanamo Bay fat.

Meals totaling a whopping 4,200 calories per day are brought to their cells, well above the 2,000 to 3,000 calories recommended for weight maintenance by U.S. government dietary guidelines. And some inmates are eating everything on the menu.

. . . .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/03/AR2006100300665.html







So do they feed them this great diet before or after they put them in stress postions for hours at a time? Or maybe they feed them this diet while they are getting waterboarded to help the food go down.


Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2008, 10:29:19 AM »
Thanks for the link.  So the executive branch believed the Geneva Convention didn't apply to suspected terrorists (which I agree with), the supremes voted 5-3 that it does apply, and the legislature exempted suspected terrorists under the Military Commissions Act.  So, as of today, it doesn't apply.  The system works again.   :)

You believe waterboarding is torture.  I don't really think it is.  Because I don't equate waterboarding with torture, the Nazi et al. comparisons don't work.  If we were running around cutting off limbs and murdering people I could see a parallel, but that's not what we do.  We put suspected terrorists in a taxpayer-funded prison, feed them 4000 calorie a day diets, and let them use our taxpayer funded legal system.  Torture American style.  

And yes, torture is torture, but if we don't agree on whether a certain practice is torture then it is indeed a gray area (at least for me).  
After WWII, the United States prosecuted Japanese military men for torture for the waterboarding of american prisoners.

Do you think that the torture technique of waterboarding has improved with age?

Do you think that the Japanese war criminals were wrongly punished by the US b/c waterboard was mistakenly seen as torture back then?

The mere fact that we provide 4000 calorie meals to people we've deprived of their freedom without a trial is pointless.  I bet that 4000 calorie meal does not sit well when the untried detainee is struggling for his/her last breath during a waterboarding session...or when he/she is being told that the screams from the next room is your child being raped b/c you are not cooperating.

Marty Lederman noted that the CIA can currently use “stress positions, hypothermia, threats to the detainee and his family, severe sleep deprivation, and severe sensory deprivation.”

Funny, McCain called waterboarding a “terrible and odious practice” that “should never be condoned in the U.S.”

headhuntersix

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2008, 10:55:34 AM »
If i was in a Jap prison and all they did was water board me I'd be giddy. In that culture, once u surrender ur nothing. When we got the odd jap to surrender, they sang like canaries because they didn't matter to their own people anymore.

Marty Lederman noted that the CIA can currently use “stress positions, hypothermia, threats to the detainee and his family, severe sleep deprivation, and severe sensory deprivation.”

The KGB found some of this much more effective then shit beating somebody. With Sense Dep u get a drug like reaction without drugs. Mccain got the dog snot kicked out of him so i don't blame him. This came up in the recent work I did in New York.

"Official DOD policy prohibits waterboarding and does not condone that behavior. The US military treats all prisoners with the dignity and respect that they deserve as well as upholds  the letter and spirit of both the Hague and Geneva conventions".

The CG liked it.  ;)
L

Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2008, 10:59:51 AM »
After WWII, the United States prosecuted Japanese military men for torture for the waterboarding of american prisoners.

Do you think that the torture technique of waterboarding has improved with age?

Do you think that the Japanese war criminals were wrongly punished by the US b/c waterboard was mistakenly seen as torture back then?

The mere fact that we provide 4000 calorie meals to people we've deprived of their freedom without a trial is pointless.  I bet that 4000 calorie meal does not sit well when the untried detainee is struggling for his/her last breath during a waterboarding session...or when he/she is being told that the screams from the next room is your child being raped b/c you are not cooperating.

Marty Lederman noted that the CIA can currently use “stress positions, hypothermia, threats to the detainee and his family, severe sleep deprivation, and severe sensory deprivation.”

Funny, McCain called waterboarding a “terrible and odious practice” that “should never be condoned in the U.S.”


Oh my heart is bleeding over the fatties sitting in Guantanamo who eat better than many Americans.  Boo freakin hoo.

I don't know the details of the prosecution of the Japanese and waterboarding, so I don't have an opinion.  Maybe our policies changed.  Not unusual.  We used to execute people by hangings and firing squads.  Also, American soldiers are clearly covered by the Geneva Convention, while terrorists are not.  If I had the time (and desire) to read up on it, I'm sure I could find out--to quote Paul Harvey--"the rest of the story."  

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2008, 11:18:41 AM »
If America did prosecute and punish Japanese for water boarding then we are no different than spitzer.   And the old adage does work when you say terrorist are not covered by the Geneva Convention, becuase would it be if we condone water boarding on ordinary criminals?

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2008, 11:22:00 AM »

Quote
Oh my heart is bleeding over the fatties sitting in Guantanamo who eat better than many Americans.  Boo freakin hoo.
Sorry for my tone, but goddam it Beach Bum we are the good guys.  We don't waterboard, we don't tell untried detainees that we are sexually torturing their children until they spill the beans.  That's about as unamerican as it gets and you're just fine with it?

Quote
I don't know the details of the prosecution of the Japanese and waterboarding, so I don't have an opinion.  Maybe our policies changed.  Not unusual.  ....
We still do execute people by hanging and firing squads. 

Our policies are informed by our sense of morality. 

Apparently our morality has changed.  That's not unusual considering the caliber of men occupying the White House.


Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2008, 11:31:08 AM »
Sorry for my tone, but goddam it Beach Bum we are the good guys.  We don't waterboard, we don't tell untried detainees that we are sexually torturing their children until they spill the beans.  That's about as unamerican as it gets and you're just fine with it?
We still do execute people by hanging and firing squads. 

Our policies are informed by our sense of morality. 

Apparently our morality has changed.  That's not unusual considering the caliber of men occupying the White House.



I don't have a problem with your tone so need to apologize (but thanks). 

Decker I think we agree that torture is abhorrent.  We don't agree on whether waterboarding is torture.

I also agree that we are the good guys.  If we are engaging in real torture (not turning up the AC and taking away a blanket), then I share your outrage.  I'm not convinced that this is our policy or that it is currently happening. 

When was the last time we executed people by firing squad and/or hanging?  We're on the verge of deeming execution by lethal injection "cruel and unusual punishment."  :-\ 

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2008, 11:36:31 AM »
I don't have a problem with your tone so need to apologize (but thanks). 

Decker I think we agree that torture is abhorrent.  We don't agree on whether waterboarding is torture.

I also agree that we are the good guys.  If we are engaging in real torture (not turning up the AC and taking away a blanket), then I share your outrage.  I'm not convinced that this is our policy or that it is currently happening. 

When was the last time we executed people by firing squad and/or hanging?  We're on the verge of deeming execution by lethal injection "cruel and unusual punishment."  :-\ 
Here's what happened at Abu Grhaib and this is what Bush is preserving for our CIA:
Urinating on detainees
Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
Sodomization of detainees with a baton
Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse#Hersh_New_Yorker_article


And let's not forget the psychology of making a detainee think that US soldiers are going family style on his little girl in the next room.

I know Oklahoma still has firing squads.  I think Idaho or Iowa does too.

Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2008, 11:38:58 AM »
If America did prosecute and punish Japanese for water boarding then we are no different than spitzer.   And the old adage does work when you say terrorist are not covered by the Geneva Convention, becuase would it be if we condone water boarding on ordinary criminals?

I don't think we should compare terrorists and American citizens.  They don't (and shouldn't) have all of the rights we give to our own people. 

Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2008, 11:42:02 AM »
Here's what happened at Abu Grhaib and this is what Bush is preserving for our CIA:
Urinating on detainees
Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
Sodomization of detainees with a baton
Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse#Hersh_New_Yorker_article


And let's not forget the psychology of making a detainee think that US soldiers are going family style on his little girl in the next room.

I know Oklahoma still has firing squads.  I think Idaho or Iowa does too.

Decker I'm surprised at you.  The acts described in that link are not the policy of our military or our government.  They are criminal acts.  To say we are supporting that stuff is really misleading. 

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2008, 11:47:22 AM »
I don't think we should compare terrorists and American citizens.  They don't (and shouldn't) have all of the rights we give to our own people. 

Yes, but we should afford the same basic rights as human beings.  They may not get the benefits of being a US Citizen, but they do have certain unalienable rights as people, not to be punished with out due process. 

Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2008, 01:08:41 PM »
Yes, but we should afford the same basic rights as human beings.  They may not get the benefits of being a US Citizen, but they do have certain unalienable rights as people, not to be punished with out due process. 

I completely agree. 

Suspected terrorists are getting due process through military commissions. 

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2008, 01:39:26 PM »
Decker I'm surprised at you.  The acts described in that link are not the policy of our military or our government.  They are criminal acts.  To say we are supporting that stuff is really misleading. 
Those are criminal acts for our military...not the CIA.

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2008, 01:41:16 PM »
So I wasn't misleading anyone.  You were misstating what entity the current legislation covers.

Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2008, 01:51:45 PM »
Those are criminal acts for our military...not the CIA.

No they aren't.  They are allegations of acts committed by individuals.  Show me the policy of our government that authorizes and/or condones the stuff in the wiki link you provided.  Also, try and reconcile your contention that is an official government policy with the express denunciations in the same link you provided, including this from Rumsfeld:

These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility. It is my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn't happen again. I feel terrible about what happened to these Iraqi detainees. They are human beings. They were in U.S. custody. Our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't do that. That was wrong. To those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of U.S. armed forces, I offer my deepest apology. It was un-American. And it was inconsistent with the values of our nation.

Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2008, 01:56:12 PM »
You said "Here's what happened at Abu Grhaib and this is what Bush is preserving for our CIA."  That's absolutely misleading, because Bush condemned the stuff from your link. 

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2008, 02:29:09 PM »
No they aren't.  They are allegations of acts committed by individuals.  Show me the policy of our government that authorizes and/or condones the stuff in the wiki link you provided.  Also, try and reconcile your contention that is an official government policy with the express denunciations in the same link you provided, including this from Rumsfeld:

These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility. It is my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn't happen again. I feel terrible about what happened to these Iraqi detainees. They are human beings. They were in U.S. custody. Our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't do that. That was wrong. To those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of U.S. armed forces, I offer my deepest apology. It was un-American. And it was inconsistent with the values of our nation.
Again, is the CIA the US military?

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2008, 02:30:04 PM »
You said "Here's what happened at Abu Grhaib and this is what Bush is preserving for our CIA."  That's absolutely misleading, because Bush condemned the stuff from your link. 
Well, if Bush said it, then I'm sold.

Again, the CIA is not the US Military.

http://abcnews.go.com/story?id=4128320
Showdown Over Destroyed CIA Tapes This Week
Will Congress Offer Immunity to Find Out What Really Happened to Alleged Torture Tapes?


Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2008, 02:37:44 PM »
Again, Beach Bum you defend the indefensible.

The Mafia handles torture like the CIA...destroy any evidence and have your boys on the inside side with you.

1. The Agency has encouraged its clients in the Third World to use torture.
2. It has provided the host country the names of the people who wound up as torture victims.
3. It has supplied torture equipment.
4. It has conducted classes in torture.
5. It has written torture manuals -- how-to books.
6. It has been present when torture has taken place, to observe and evaluate how well its students were doing.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/CIATorture_WBlum.html

Extraordinary Rendition---the CIA has done that.


Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2008, 02:51:24 PM »
Again, is the CIA the US military?

What difference does that make?  You're contending the U.S. government, or at a minimum the Bush Administration, supported/condoned the criminal acts in the link you provided:  "Here's what happened at Abu Grhaib and this is what Bush is preserving for our CIA." 

You stand by that statement?  If so, it's grossly misleading, because you're saying Bush and the CIA were involved in and condoned the items in the link. 

Dos Equis

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2008, 02:58:00 PM »
Again, Beach Bum you defend the indefensible.

The Mafia handles torture like the CIA...destroy any evidence and have your boys on the inside side with you.

1. The Agency has encouraged its clients in the Third World to use torture.
2. It has provided the host country the names of the people who wound up as torture victims.
3. It has supplied torture equipment.
4. It has conducted classes in torture.
5. It has written torture manuals -- how-to books.
6. It has been present when torture has taken place, to observe and evaluate how well its students were doing.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/CIATorture_WBlum.html

Extraordinary Rendition---the CIA has done that.



I'm defending the position of those who know more about this than me that something like waterboarding shouldn't be taken off the table when dealing with suspected terrorists.  What you're doing is trying to tie that to the Mafia, Nazis, real torture, etc.  Sorry.  Doesn't work. 

Are you a Blum disciple? 

Blum describes himself as a socialist and has supported Ralph Nader's presidential campaigns.

In early 2006 (see 19 January 2006 Osama bin Laden tape), Blum briefly became the subject of widespread media attention when Osama bin Laden issued a public statement in which he quoted Blum and recommended that all Americans read Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower.[1] In a May 22, 2006 article entitled, Come Out of the White House With Your Hands Up, Blum wrote, "Since the bin Laden recommendation, January 19, I have not been offered a single speaking engagement on any campus . . .This despite January-May normally being the most active period for me and other campus speakers."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blum

headhuntersix

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2008, 03:01:14 PM »
Wow an entire thread where to guys disagree but don't hurl insults..must bea getbig first. I think the idiots at Abu Grahrib got out of hand...they were told to do or allowed to do some things but got carried away. Bush did not know what was going on...he does now but generally they don't let the head guys know exactly whats going on. It does not bother me because these are some truly horrible people. These aren't Germans or even Russians. I don't think physical torture is the best way to go anyway.
L

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2008, 03:10:49 PM »
What difference does that make?  You're contending the U.S. government, or at a minimum the Bush Administration, supported/condoned the criminal acts in the link you provided:  "Here's what happened at Abu Grhaib and this is what Bush is preserving for our CIA." 

You stand by that statement?  If so, it's grossly misleading, because you're saying Bush and the CIA were involved in and condoned the items in the link. 
The Military must adhere to restrictions against torture in the Military Field Manuals.  The CIA is not bound in such a manner.

What about this?:

Why the Bush Administration Says the CIA Torture Tapes Were Deleted: According to CIA Director Michael Hayden, the tapes were deleted primarily to protect the identity of interrogators. Hayden denies that the tapes have any relevance to torture investigations, but it is worth noting that the Bush administration's official position is that waterboarding--the form of water torture Kiriakou stated was used during the interrogation--is not described as a form of torture by Bush administration officials.

Potential Legal Consequences of the CIA Torture Tapes: Because the tapes were deleted in violation of a federal court order, and may have shown criminally actionable acts, those involved in deleting them could be charged with obstruction of justice. The interrogators shown on the tapes could also be charged with violations of U.S. torture law, though this is less likely.
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/tortureandrendition/p/torture_tapes.htm


I can read Blum without feeling threatened by self-imposed thought police that he's a...gasp....socialist. 

Have you ever read Marx?  Are you a communist b/c of it?

Waterboarding as an interrogation technique has its roots in some of history's worst totalitarian nations, from Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition to North Korea and Iraq. In the United States, the technique was first used five decades ago as a training tool to give U.S. troops a realistic sense of what they could expect if captured by the Soviet Union or the armies of Southeast Asia. The U.S. military has officially regarded the tactic as torture since the Spanish-American War.

In general, the technique involves strapping a prisoner to a board or other flat surface, and then raising his feet above the level of his head. A cloth is then placed over the subject's mouth and nose, and water is poured over his face to make the prisoner believe he is drowning.

U.S. officials knowledgeable about the CIA's use of the technique say it was used on three individuals -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks; Zayn Abidin Muhammed Hussein Abu Zubaida, a senior al-Qaeda member and Osama bin Laden associate captured in Pakistan in March 2002; and a third detainee who has not been publicly identified.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664_pf.html

Again, I point out the obvious--You stand with the Nazis and the Commies in your view of the utility of Waterboarding.

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2008, 03:11:47 PM »
Wow an entire thread where to guys disagree but don't hurl insults..must bea getbig first. I think the idiots at Abu Grahrib got out of hand...they were told to do or allowed to do some things but got carried away. Bush did not know what was going on...he does now but generally they don't let the head guys know exactly whats going on. It does not bother me because these are some truly horrible people. These aren't Germans or even Russians. I don't think physical torture is the best way to go anyway.
You're all douchebags.


Of course you tasked me to type that.

Decker

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Re: President Bush Stands with Torture...again...
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2008, 03:25:54 PM »
Have a good evening guys.  I gotta go home and be sick for a while.