President Bush Stands with Torture...again...

[OzmO]

I completely agree. 

Suspected terrorists are getting due process through military commissions. 

Is our military also a sanctioned police force?

Getting due process through military commission makes them combatants and should have rights under the  Geneva convention.   If they aren't considered eligible then they should be prosecuted as criminals by local courts.

It's a sham and a way to legally torture them and do what you want with them.   

That's why we've had problems with it from the media and have somewhat lost our souls as a just country in the process.


Or maybe a terrorist is something that  deserves only minimal  rights.  He is neither a criminal or a soldier.

[Dos Equis]

The Military must adhere to restrictions against torture in the Military Field Manuals.  The CIA is not bound in such a manner.

What about this?:

Why the Bush Administration Says the CIA Torture Tapes Were Deleted: According to CIA Director Michael Hayden, the tapes were deleted primarily to protect the identity of interrogators. Hayden denies that the tapes have any relevance to torture investigations, but it is worth noting that the Bush administration's official position is that waterboarding--the form of water torture Kiriakou stated was used during the interrogation--is not described as a form of torture by Bush administration officials.

Potential Legal Consequences of the CIA Torture Tapes: Because the tapes were deleted in violation of a federal court order, and may have shown criminally actionable acts, those involved in deleting them could be charged with obstruction of justice. The interrogators shown on the tapes could also be charged with violations of U.S. torture law, though this is less likely.
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/tortureandrendition/p/torture_tapes.htm


I can read Blum without feeling threatened by self-imposed thought police that he's a...gasp....socialist. 

Have you ever read Marx?  Are you a communist b/c of it?

Waterboarding as an interrogation technique has its roots in some of history's worst totalitarian nations, from Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition to North Korea and Iraq. In the United States, the technique was first used five decades ago as a training tool to give U.S. troops a realistic sense of what they could expect if captured by the Soviet Union or the armies of Southeast Asia. The U.S. military has officially regarded the tactic as torture since the Spanish-American War.

In general, the technique involves strapping a prisoner to a board or other flat surface, and then raising his feet above the level of his head. A cloth is then placed over the subject's mouth and nose, and water is poured over his face to make the prisoner believe he is drowning.

U.S. officials knowledgeable about the CIA's use of the technique say it was used on three individuals -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks; Zayn Abidin Muhammed Hussein Abu Zubaida, a senior al-Qaeda member and Osama bin Laden associate captured in Pakistan in March 2002; and a third detainee who has not been publicly identified.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664_pf.html

Again, I point out the obvious--You stand with the Nazis and the Commies in your view of the utility of Waterboarding.

I thought the issue was waterboarding?  Where do these alleged "torture tapes" fit in?  

I'm not threatened by a socialist or someone who Bin Laden thinks highly enough to quote.  I just wouldn't use that person as an unreferenced source as part of a discussion (at least not without qualification).  

We're kinda going around in circles.  Saying anyone "stands with" Nazis because the Nazis used waterboarding is ridiculous.  No different than saying someone who supports capital punishment "stands with" Nazis because Nazis also used capital punishment.  

This is barely a blip on the radar.  Nothing more than a partisan non-issue.  

[OzmO]

Wow an entire thread where to guys disagree but don't hurl insults..must bea getbig first.

I think the idiots at Abu Grahrib got out of hand...

they were told to do or allowed to do some things but got carried away.

Bush did not know what was going on...he does now but generally they don't let the head guys know exactly whats going on. It does not bother me because these are some truly horrible people. These aren't Germans or even Russians.

I don't think physical torture is the best way to go anyway.

For the most part HH6, this is why i think you are a true conservative.   You don't condone stupid shit in the name of your party, even though you stereotype liberals occasionally.

[Dos Equis]

Is our military also a sanctioned police force?

Getting due process through military commission makes them combatants and should have rights under the  Geneva convention.   If they aren't considered eligible then they should be prosecuted as criminals by local courts.

It's a sham and a way to legally torture them and do what you want with them.   

That's why we've had problems with it from the media and have somewhat lost our souls as a just country in the process.


Or maybe a terrorist is something that  deserves only minimal  rights.  He is neither a criminal or a soldier.

Why does our military need to be a sanctioned police force?  

Suspected terrorists don't fall under the Geneva Convention.  

Military commissions are not a sham.  They have a long history.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tribunal  

That's really all a suspected terrorist should get IMO.  I would not give them carte blanche access to our court system at taxpayer expense.  They still get their day in court.  

[OzmO]

Why does our military need to be a sanctioned police force? 

Suspected terrorists don't fall under the Geneva Convention. 

Military commissions are not a sham.  They have a long history.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tribunal 

That's really all a suspected terrorist should get IMO.  I would not give them carte blanche access to our court system at taxpayer expense.  They still get their day in court.   

I'm not saying they need to be.   I'm saying they are either fighting a war or acting as a police force or both.  either way when we take prisoners, if they don;t have rights under the GC and they don't have rights as citizens of another nations, we are effectively saying they are less than human.   which with some is arguable, and with others is not.  And then we torture them to boot. 

BTW, I'm not suggesting they get tried in our civilian courts with our money, becuase they are getting tried in military courts with our money anyway.

And as far as finding the truth i wouldn't trust any military court as far as i could through it.

[Dos Equis]

I'm not saying they need to be.   I'm saying they are either fighting a war or acting as a police force or both.  either way when we take prisoners, if they don;t have rights under the GC and they don't have rights as citizens of another nations, we are effectively saying they are less than human.   which with some is arguable, and with others is not.  And then we torture them to boot. 

BTW, I'm not suggesting they get tried in our civilian courts with our money, becuase they are getting tried in military courts with our money anyway.

And as far as finding the truth i wouldn't trust any military court as far as i could through it.

I agree we shouldn't treat anyone as less than human. 

The military justice system is actually pretty efficient.  Much more efficient than the civilian side.  They don't play around. 

[240 is Back]

It would really be a shining American moment if the next President, from whichever party, would take office and completely outlaw waterboarding on Jan 20, 2009. 

I don't care how you feel about it (some say it might technically not be torture, even though our admin considered it torture until 2001)...

If the Pres came in and told the world "We're not going to be playing in that gray area anymore"... it would be a great thing.

[kh300]

it would be a real shame if we poured water over one of these guys faces. even though they would receive no physical damage, it would be too mean and unfair.

http://www.conservativenewswarriors.com/nick-berg-video-photos-beheaded.html

[OzmO]

it would be a real shame if we poured water over one of these guys faces. even though they would receive no physical damage, it would be too mean and unfair.

http://www.conservativenewswarriors.com/nick-berg-video-photos-beheaded.html

Really, why don't we just beat some of them to death?  That's what they were trying to do to us right?  It's only fair.

[kh300]

Really, why don't we just beat some of them to death?  That's what they were trying to do to us right?  It's only fair.

we arnt. were pouring water over their faces.

would you like them to say. ''hey mr terrorist, tell us were those pow's are or you wont get your cupcake after dinner''

[Bindare_Dundat]

we arnt. were pouring water over their faces.

would you like them to say. ''hey mr terrorist, tell us were those pow's are or you wont get your cupcake after dinner''

 

[240 is Back]

we arnt. were pouring water over their faces.

would you like them to say. ''hey mr terrorist, tell us were those pow's are or you wont get your cupcake after dinner''

Fair enough.

Can you share some examples of cases where torture has saved our POWs?

Or is this just a made-up hypothetical (with real torture and imaginary results!)?

[240 is Back]

Fair enough.

Can you share some examples of cases where torture has saved our POWs?

Or is this just a made-up hypothetical (with real torture and imaginary results!)?

And don't think I'm defending bad guys... that analysis is very poor.  I'm all for executing the bastards if they have it coming.  I just don't want OUR troops getting tortured in return.  Remember those 2 poor kidnapped troops who were tortured and cut up - in direct response to abu ghirab?  They are two examples of how torturing enemies put our troops in more danger.

[OzmO]

we arnt. were pouring water over their faces.

would you like them to say. ''hey mr terrorist, tell us were those pow's are or you wont get your cupcake after dinner''

No, what I'd like them to do is stick a read hot poker up their asses until they tell us what we want to know.  But that's not what we are about, at least not the America i grew up learning about.  I grew up learning that we were the "good guys" and wouldn't attack anyone unless we were attacked, and that  the only people that tortured people were the bad guys.

Like i said.  We are losing our soul as a country, and in that instance, the Terrorists are winning.  In that way they are turning us into the monsters they are.   Americans trhat support torture.  The same torture that allegedly was use to punish Japanese for war crimes.

Are we really water boarding people to find POW's or are we doing as a matter of practice in a standard interrogation.......i guarantee.  If it's legal it will be standard.

[Deicide]

No, what I'd like them to do is stick a read hot poker up their asses until they tell us what we want to know.  But that's not what we are about, at least not the America i grew up learning about.  I grew up learning that we were the "good guys" and wouldn't attack anyone unless we were attacked, and that  the only people that tortured people were the bad guys.

Like i said.  We are losing our soul as a country, and in that instance, the Terrorists are winning.  In that way they are turning us into the monsters they are.   Americans trhat support torture.  The same torture that allegedly was use to punish Japanese for war crimes.

Are we really water boarding people to find POW's or are we doing as a matter of practice in a standard interrogation.......i guarantee.  If it's legal it will be standard.

  Haha, how old are you 40, 50? When you were growing up our CIA was assassinating people, torturing people, installing puppet dictators in other countries and contributing to human rights violations across the world.

We are not losing our 'soul', we are just more open about the stuff that we used to do covertly.

[OzmO]

Haha, how old are you 40, 50? When you were growing up our CIA was assassinating people, torturing people, installing puppet dictators in other countries and contributing to human rights violations across the world.

We are not losing our 'soul', we are just more open about the stuff that we used to do covertly.

No kidding.  But we are openly doing it.  And people are supporting it.  What does that say about the state of our soul?

[Deicide]

No kidding.  But we are openly doing it.  And people are supporting it.  What does that say about the state of our soul?

Nothing. Americans have always been greedy, selfish materialists (I don't mean materialist in the philosophical sense). As long as they can drive their big cars and live in big houses, they don't care much.

[OzmO]

Nothing. Americans have always been greedy, selfish materialists (I don't mean materialist in the philosophical sense). As long as they can drive their big cars and live in big houses, they don't care much.

True it would seem like that.  But many do care and speak out.  There are people in other countries that are apathetic also.   

[Deicide]

True it would seem like that.  But many do care and speak out.  There are people in other countries that are apathetic also.   

Absolutely. Koreans are some of the worst.

[Decker]

I thought the issue was waterboarding?  Where do these alleged "torture tapes" fit in?

 CIA admits waterboarding inmates
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7229169.stm

CIA head Michael Hayden testified before Congress that the CIA waterboards detainees. 

Then the CIA destroyed tapes documenting its interrogation "techniques".

Now you may trust admitted torturers that those tapes showed simple question and answer techniques of investigation.  But me, I'm a little more cynical.

I'm not threatened by a socialist or someone who Bin Laden thinks highly enough to quote.  I just wouldn't use that person as an unreferenced source as part of a discussion (at least not without qualification). 

Maybe you missed the link that I provided where I cited my source.  Here it is again so you do not miss it twice:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/CIATorture_WBlum.html

Frankly, I don't care if the source is Satan himself.  If the statements are facts then they are facts. 

You engage in a classic Bush maneuver of changing the subject to attacking the speaker instead of the message.

We're kinda going around in circles.  Saying anyone "stands with" Nazis because the Nazis used waterboarding is ridiculous.  No different than saying someone who supports capital punishment "stands with" Nazis because Nazis also used capital punishment.

It's called contrarianism.  I state a fact that the Nazis and the Commies used waterboarding and that you support "pouring water on someone's face" (i.e., waterboarding) so it must follow that you stand with the Nazis and Commies in your joint appreciation of waterboarding as a viable interrogation technique.

You answer the contrary--no I don't or we are 'kinda going in circles'...

I assure you, you are adding the curve to this discussion.

And then you engage in that well-worn Bush tactic of diversion:  someone who supports capital punishment "stands with" "Nazis because Nazis also used capital punishment.

How transparent.  Is torture capital punishment?  Not even close.

Why even opt for that stretch Beach Bum?  Why not just point out that b/c the Nazis ingested food, anyone eating stands with the Nazis? 

That's weak.

This is barely a blip on the radar.  Nothing more than a partisan non-issue.

It could end up just a blip on the radar but not because it's just a 'partisan issue'. 

It's because people like you condone torture. 

It's the simple difference between right and wrong, between being the good guy and being a shady dark torturer.

[Dos Equis]

 CIA admits waterboarding inmates
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7229169.stm

CIA head Michael Hayden testified before Congress that the CIA waterboards detainees. 

Then the CIA destroyed tapes documenting its interrogation "techniques".

Now you may trust admitted torturers that those tapes showed simple question and answer techniques of investigation.  But me, I'm a little more cynical.
Maybe you missed the link that I provided where I cited my source.  Here it is again so you do not miss it twice:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/CIATorture_WBlum.html

Frankly, I don't care if the source is Satan himself.  If the statements are facts then they are facts. 

You engage in a classic Bush maneuver of changing the subject to attacking the speaker instead of the message.
It's called contrarianism.  I state a fact that the Nazis and the Commies used waterboarding and that you support "pouring water on someone's face" (i.e., waterboarding) so it must follow that you stand with the Nazis and Commies in your joint appreciation of waterboarding as a viable interrogation technique.

You answer the contrary--no I don't or we are 'kinda going in circles'...

I assure you, you are adding the curve to this discussion.

And then you engage in that well-worn Bush tactic of diversion:  someone who supports capital punishment "stands with" "Nazis because Nazis also used capital punishment.

How transparent.  Is torture capital punishment?  Not even close.

Why even opt for that stretch Beach Bum?  Why not just point out that b/c the Nazis ingested food, anyone eating stands with the Nazis? 

That's weak.
It could end up just a blip on the radar but not because it's just a 'partisan issue'. 

It's because people like you condone torture. 

It's the simple difference between right and wrong, between being the good guy and being a shady dark torturer.

lol . . . After reading this I might as well change my name to Dr. Evil.



The CIA admitted to waterboarding suspected terrorists and then destroyed tapes of those interrogations?  So what. 

I thought I might have missed something, so clicked on your link again and as I said it is unsourced.  It contains blanket statements with no reference support whatsoever.  Did you miss that part?  The fact that this guy makes unsourced statements, is a socialist, and is quoted by Bin Laden makes me just a tad suspicious.  If you can't trust the messenger, the message is automatically suspect. 

Your attempt to link me, Bush, etc. to Nazis is preposterous.  And yes, why "not just point out that b/c the Nazis ingested food, anyone eating stands with the Nazis?"  It's as ridiculous as your waterboarding comparison. 

This non-issue is a blip because Democrats have attempted to exploit it for political gain.
   

[War-Horse]

Yeah waterboarding is nothing....

[Decker]

lol . . . After reading this I might as well change my name to Dr. Evil.

I knew it!

The CIA admitted to waterboarding suspected terrorists and then destroyed tapes of those interrogations?  So what. 

B/c it is likely there's more on the tapes than admitted.  Or do you believe the word of anyone destroying evidence of his wrongdoing?  That's such a bush league mafia tactic.
Admitted law-breakers are trustworthy aren't they?

I thought I might have missed something, so clicked on your link again and as I said it is unsourced.  It contains blanket statements with no reference support whatsoever.  Did you miss that part?  The fact that this guy makes unsourced statements, is a socialist, and is quoted by Bin Laden makes me just a tad suspicious.

Fine.  You win.  I'm not even going to indulge your misdirection on this one.

This is just a distraction from your dancing around the fact that you support torture.  Your support gives the USA a blackeye.

But in the interest of pulling the rug out from under your diversion: 
CIA Rendition  http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=116&sid=1349214 http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/cia-rendition-t.html
CIA Torture Instruction  http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/kubark.htm (The actual Manual)


 

If you can't trust the messenger, the message is automatically suspect. 

Trust?  Trust me, you are tap dancing like Sammy Davis on fire.

Back to the topic at hand.  You support torture--the same torture practiced by the Nazis and the Communists.

Your attempt to link me, Bush, etc. to Nazis is preposterous.  And yes, why "not just point out that b/c the Nazis ingested food, anyone eating stands with the Nazis?"  It's as ridiculous as your waterboarding comparison.

Nazis waterboarded.  Communists Waterboarded.  WWII Japs waterboarded.  GW Bush & Beach Bum support waterboarding.

Who on the planet misses the obvious nefarious link amongst you?

I don't see FDR, Jesus Christ or even Richard Nixon on that list. 

But I do see you. 

This non-issue is a blip because Democrats have attempted to exploit it for political gain.

I hope your reptition of this mantra assuages your misguided conscience.
   

[Dos Equis]

I knew it!


B/c it is likely there's more on the tapes than admitted.  Or do you believe the word of anyone destroying evidence of his wrongdoing?  That's such a bush league mafia tactic.
Admitted law-breakers are trustworthy aren't they?
Fine.  You win.  I'm not even going to indulge your misdirection on this one.

This is just a distraction from your dancing around the fact that you support torture.  Your support gives the USA a blackeye.

But in the interest of pulling the rug out from under your diversion: 
CIA Rendition  http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=116&sid=1349214 http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/cia-rendition-t.html
CIA Torture Instruction  http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/kubark.htm (The actual Manual)


  Trust?  Trust me, you are tap dancing like Sammy Davis on fire.

Back to the topic at hand.  You support torture--the same torture practiced by the Nazis and the Communists.

Nazis waterboarded.  Communists Waterboarded.  WWII Japs waterboarded.  GW Bush & Beach Bum support waterboarding.

Who on the planet misses the obvious nefarious link amongst you?

I don't see FDR, Jesus Christ or even Richard Nixon on that list. 

But I do see you. 
I hope your reptition of this mantra assuages your misguided conscience.
   

Did the CIA have some kind of duty to preserve tapes?  And if they violated the law when they destroyed the tapes, then why haven't they been charged with a crime?

Did you think I wasn't going to read the link?  You posted so-called facts and provided this link to support the so-called facts: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/CIATorture_WBlum.html   That link simply repeats the "facts" you listed, with no support whatsoever.  It's as reliable as a Dr. Seuss book, particularly given the author (Blum).   

The Nazis used capital punishment.  Communists used capital punishment.  More than 30 states and the federal government use capital punishment.  I support capital punishment.  [gasp] Beach Bum is a Nazi! 

Yes, I defer to people in the know about waterboarding.  Dr. Evil in the flesh.   

[Decker]

Did the CIA have some kind of duty to preserve tapes?  And if they violated the law when they destroyed the tapes, then why haven't they been charged with a crime?

It's your type of vigilant oversight over governmental operations that makes the Bush Administration a success.

Are you kidding me?  I mean, really Beach Bum, are you kidding me?

Videos of interrogation of suspected terrorists right after the 9/11 attacks...and you see no merit in hanging on to those tapes?

How about the 9/11 commissions request for all relevant information to their investigations?  Where were the tapes then?

Congress will have to look into this.

I can't wait for it to unfold

Did you think I wasn't going to read the link?  You posted so-called facts and provided this link to support the so-called facts: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/CIATorture_WBlum.html   That link simply repeats the "facts" you listed, with no support whatsoever.  It's as reliable as a Dr. Seuss book, particularly given the author (Blum).

I link things with the direct intent that the links be followed and read.  I posted the Blum list b/c it was a handy list of proven CIA torture endeavors. 

You did see these links, b/c you asked for them, right? 

CIA Rendition  http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=116&sid=1349214 http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/cia-rendition-t.html
CIA Torture Instruction  http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/kubark.htm (The actual Manual)
 

The Nazis used capital punishment.  Communists used capital punishment.  More than 30 states and the federal government use capital punishment.  I support capital punishment.  [gasp] Beach Bum is a Nazi! 

You're doing what you did a few posts ago.

I already debunked your fallacious logic. 

Is capital punishment torture?

No.

So why are you creating another diversion?

How unfortunate.

Nazis and Communists use waterboarding.  The USA didn't waterboard until Bush got into office.  Beach Bum and Bush support waterboarding.

I'm sorry Beach Bum, but that connection above is unamerican.  Waterboarding is not part of our history and it doesn't issue from our national traditions.

You know whose history and traditions it does issue from?

Nazis and Communists...and now the Bush administration and Beach Bum are trying to create a new and immoral tradition.

Yes, I defer to people in the know about waterboarding.....

 You mean like Nazis & Communists that performed waterboarding?