President Bush Stands with Torture...again...

[240 is Back]

[gasp] Beach Bum is a Nazi! 

WTF?

[Decker]

WTF?

It's a trick 240.

He will then argue about the semantics and logical structure of any reference between nazis, waterboarding and Beach Bum.

That is a diversion from dealing with the fact that waterboarding's history begins with evil people.   It's an evil tactic, if you will.  And Beach Bum is willingly supporting that type of evil by supporting Bush in his endeavor to keep waterboarding part of the CIA's bag of tricks.

[Dos Equis]

It's your type of vigilant oversight over governmental operations that makes the Bush Administration a success.

Are you kidding me?  I mean, really Beach Bum, are you kidding me?

Videos of interrogation of suspected terrorists right after the 9/11 attacks...and you see no merit in hanging on to those tapes?

How about the 9/11 commissions request for all relevant information to their investigations?  Where were the tapes then?

Congress will have to look into this.

I can't wait for it to unfold
I link things with the direct intent that the links be followed and read.  I posted the Blum list b/c it was a handy list of proven CIA torture endeavors. 

You did see these links, b/c you asked for them, right? 

CIA Rendition  http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=116&sid=1349214 http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/cia-rendition-t.html
CIA Torture Instruction  http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/kubark.htm (The actual Manual)
 
You're doing what you did a few posts ago.

I already debunked your fallacious logic. 

Is capital punishment torture?

No.

So why are you creating another diversion?

How unfortunate.

Nazis and Communists use waterboarding.  The USA didn't waterboard until Bush got into office.  Beach Bum and Bush support waterboarding.

I'm sorry Beach Bum, but that connection above is unamerican.  Waterboarding is not part of our history and it doesn't issue from our national traditions.

You know whose history and traditions it does issue from?

Nazis and Communists...and now the Bush administration and Beach Bum are trying to create a new and immoral tradition.
 You mean like Nazis & Communists that performed waterboarding? 

So I guess this answer is "no," the CIA did not have any duty to preserve interrogation tapes and "no," there was no violation of the law involved in destroying interrogation tapes.  On the other hand, I could see why some people like the ACLU would want them.  They would probably try and use them to file lawsuits on behalf of suspected terrorists.  

You didn't debunk anything.  You used an absurd hypothetical and I used an absurd hypothetical.  

But this horse is about dead.  You can have the last word.    

[Dos Equis]

It's a trick 240.

He will then argue about the semantics and logical structure of any reference between nazis, waterboarding and Beach Bum.

That is a diversion from dealing with the fact that waterboarding's history begins with evil people.   It's an evil tactic, if you will.  And Beach Bum is willingly supporting that type of evil by supporting Bush in his endeavor to keep waterboarding part of the CIA's bag of tricks.

That's "Dr." Evil to you. 

[Decker]

So I guess this answer is "no," the CIA did not have any duty to preserve interrogation tapes and "no," there was no violation of the law involved in destroying interrogation tapes.  On the other hand, I could see why some people like the ACLU would want them.  They would probably try and use them to file lawsuits on behalf of suspected terrorists.  

You didn't debunk anything.  You used an absurd hypothetical and I used an absurd hypothetical.  

But this horse is about dead.  You can have the last word.    

Oh I'm not worried about a duty to not destroy the tapes.  I'm more concerned with the CIA's obvious disregard of the 9/11 Commission's right to see those tapes.

Why were they withheld from the 9/11 Commission?

Who ordered it?

Who knew of it?

Well gee, Beach Bum, if a detainee is tortured and he is innocent, don't you think he might have a legitimate grievance?

Any topic but torture and I'd have been gone a long time ago.

Nazi and Communist use of waterboarding is not hypothetical.  That is what is called, "history".

Your support of waterboarding is not hypothetical.  In your own words you've stated your support for Bush and his waterboarding stance.

The only hypotheticals flying around are your diversionary tales.

[Decker]

In a related development, one of America’s leading constitutional scholars said White House involvement in the CIA’s decision to destroy videotapes documenting severe interrogation techniques of suspected terrorists could constitute as many as six crimes.

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_4277.shtml

[kh300]

No, what I'd like them to do is stick a read hot poker up their asses until they tell us what we want to know.  But that's not what we are about, at least not the America i grew up learning about. 

hate to break it to ya, but this country was built upon blood and torture.

[OzmO]

hate to break it to ya, but this country was built upon blood and torture.

Is that what you think America is all about?

[kh300]

Is that what you think America is all about?

no but its a reality. america shouldnt be about any type of hurt or torture. but theres a fine line between pain and being a complete pussy

[War-Horse]

no but its a reality. america shouldnt be about any type of hurt or torture. but theres a fine line between pain and being a complete pussy

No wonder your a cop.    Have fun tazing someone today......

[Bindare_Dundat]

No wonder your a cop.    Have fun tazing someone today......

he's a cop? Good grief.

[OzmO]

no but its a reality. america shouldnt be about any type of hurt or torture. but theres a fine line between pain and being a complete pussy

I agree,

and there's a fine line between doing the right thing vs. torture and evil.

[24KT]

I don't think we should compare terrorists and American citizens.  They don't (and shouldn't) have all of the rights we give to our own people. 

When you understand the circumstances of how many in Abu Ghraib or even Guantanamo got there, you'd realize that "terrorists" is the wrong adjective to be using. I don't doubt that some of them may be terrorists, but the sweeps were so wide, innocents were scooped up as well. By all accounts I've read, the vast majority were innocents scooped up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not making it home by curfew... having the dumb luck of having id that the soldier was unable to read. If they're look for Abdullah, and some 22 yr old kid unable to read Iraqi has to examine Mohammed's id, ...guess what, mohammed's ass is in Abu ghraib. I won't even start on the guys kidnapped and turned over in Afghanistan for money.

Even if one is ok with the idea of torture, ...at least ascertain that these guys are indeed terrorists first before you start the torture, otherwise you're no better than the terrorists you seek to destroy. They don't have a problem with killing innocents, ...and apparently neither do those who advocate the torture of detainees. It's all the same justification. Good Grief! 

[Dos Equis]

By all accounts I've read, the vast majority were innocents scooped up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not making it home by curfew... having the dumb luck of having id that the soldier was unable to read.

I am continually amazed by the number of getbig.com exclusives.

[War-Horse]

I am continually amazed by the number of getbig.com exclusives.

Yeah, we should check with you before we post. 

[headhuntersix]

Club Gitmo......

Club Gitmo
What it's really like behind the wire.
by Jacob Laksin
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/893ibjxl.asp

...Case in point is the notorious Camp X-Ray. In 2002, the camp became a stand-in for the alleged horrors of Guantanamo Bay when pictures of detainees in orange jump suits, kneeling and handcuffed, became public. Up close, the camp is indeed intimidating. A sprawling expanse of decaying sheds and weed-choked confinement cells, X-Ray would make an easy target for anyone seeking proof of American neglect and abuse. Inconveniently for this caricature, the camp was shut down a mere months after it was opened in 2002; it has stood abandoned ever since. Today, the camp's sole residents are butterflies, lizards and an improbably menacing creature called a banana rat.....

[Dos Equis]

Yeah, we should check with you before we post. 

I'd be happy to screen any crackpot conspiracy theories you might have.    

[Colossus_500]

I'd be happy to screen any crackpot conspiracy theories you might have.   

lol

[Decker]

...
Even if one is ok with the idea of torture, ...at least ascertain that these guys are indeed terrorists first before you start the torture, otherwise you're no better than the terrorists you seek to destroy. They don't have a problem with killing innocents, ...and apparently neither do those who advocate the torture of detainees. It's all the same justification. Good Grief! 

When did the US suddenly view torture as necessary?  On a moral front, it's sickening.  Psychologists still claim that it is counterproductive.

Yet we have no problem digging up torturers and supporters of such acts.  Makes you think twice about your neighbor.