The most retarded of all the BB drug myths

[Brutal_1]

I have read many studies Matty. You will surely add some muscle with the use of AAS. You will not however get to pro size, or even look like a body builder just running AAS. It takes a lot of hard work and discipline with training and diet, to look like a body builder. Especially a pro. Real Body builders (natural and enhanced) Train their ass off. It does not come from a magic pill. Sorry bro but you are really misinformed. 

 


The argument of "well then why aren't there pro-like physiques everywhere" doesn't work.  Not with bodybuilding.  Honestly, you have to be seriously suicidal to become a pro, plain and simple.  Even Kamali said the things they have to do to compete at that level are "scary"!

Where's the respect with playing russian roullette with hormones?!

Another good point Kamali made was that the reason he became a pro was because he was young and stupid and basically didn't care! 

I know a pro that owns a supplement store out here in So Cal, used to be a normal name in flex in the 90's, he would tell you the only difference between the NPC competitor and the IFBB competitor...is the drugs.

I like in the "war for the worlds" when chick is making his food, he says it's basic egg omellette with oatmeal, "IFBB doesn't have some secret weider farms where they grow special chicken....."

Nothing different, no special foods, no special lifts and weird techniques.............. .........just drugs.  Of course structure, muscle length and shape and most importantly drug response make all the difference...but without the drugs, there is NOOOOOO IFBB 

[HowieW]

 


The argument of "well then why aren't there pro-like physiques everywhere" doesn't work.  Not with bodybuilding.  Honestly, you have to be seriously suicidal to become a pro, plain and simple.  Even Kamali said the things they have to do to compete at that level are "scary"!

Where's the respect with playing russian roullette with hormones?!

Another good point Kamali made was that the reason he became a pro was because he was young and stupid and basically didn't care! 

I know a pro that owns a supplement store out here in So Cal, used to be a normal name in flex in the 90's, he would tell you the only difference between the NPC competitor and the IFBB competitor...is the drugs.

I like in the "war for the worlds" when chick is making his food, he says it's basic egg omellette with oatmeal, "IFBB doesn't have some secret weider farms where they grow special chicken....."

Nothing different, no special foods, no special lifts and weird techniques.............. .........just drugs.  Of course structure, muscle length and shape and most importantly drug response make all the difference...but without the drugs, there is NOOOOOO IFBB 

I agree 100% with your point here and realize that the freakish level of cuts of size we see on an IFBB stage are impossible without drugs. Having agreed with that, I think you and many others missed  my main pt.
In the end it is the genetics that determine who has the best physique along with training and then diet.
The drugs enhance what base is already there.
Take away the drug from the pros and they won't be as big or freaky, but the best pros with drugs will still be the top guys WITHOUT drugs ( if everyone was drug free).
I enjoy seeing the top drug enhanced physiques, no question about it.
I would prefer to see the best guys OFF drugs and compete like that however.
Just my feelings on this one, no axes to grind .
Howard

[4thAD]

 


The argument of "well then why aren't there pro-like physiques everywhere" doesn't work.  Not with bodybuilding.  Honestly, you have to be seriously suicidal to become a pro, plain and simple.  Even Kamali said the things they have to do to compete at that level are "scary"!

Where's the respect with playing russian roullette with hormones?!

Another good point Kamali made was that the reason he became a pro was because he was young and stupid and basically didn't care! 

I know a pro that owns a supplement store out here in So Cal, used to be a normal name in flex in the 90's, he would tell you the only difference between the NPC competitor and the IFBB competitor...is the drugs.

I like in the "war for the worlds" when chick is making his food, he says it's basic egg omellette with oatmeal, "IFBB doesn't have some secret weider farms where they grow special chicken....."

Nothing different, no special foods, no special lifts and weird techniques.............. .........just drugs.  Of course structure, muscle length and shape and most importantly drug response make all the difference...but without the drugs, there is NOOOOOO IFBB 

I also agree with what your saying. Mattyboy just tried to say that one could be a bodybuilder woth drugs alone. I had to call him on this bs.

[HowieW]

I also agree with what your saying. Mattyboy just tried to say that one could be a bodybuilder woth drugs alone. I had to call him on this bs.

I have been in plenty of gyms with various "gym rats" that tried every combo of drugs and supplements ever invented. The funny thing was, that a lot of these guys didn't put nearly as much effort into their training or basic diet. Most of these tyoes look either : way too bulky and train in layers of gym clothes or they have that skiiny fat look.I used small amounts of varoius roids for 3 yrs *83-86. I competed in NPC shows from *87 to 95 WITHOUT any drugs in NON-tested NPC shows. I did about 20 shows in that time period and even won a few local/state NPC shows against guys that were on the juice. I swear I got a heck of a lot more satisfaction being able to beat or at least match up with guys on the juice when I was natural.

[Van_Bilderass]

Take away the drug from the pros and they won't be as big or freaky, but the best pros with drugs will still be the top guys WITHOUT drugs ( if everyone was drug free).

I don't think so, not at all. Some physiques are much much more drug dependent. The placings would change drastically if drugs were taken out of the equation.

[Matt C]

Take away the drug from the pros and they won't be as big or freaky, but the best pros with drugs will still be the top guys WITHOUT drugs ( if everyone was drug free).

You're leaving out a whole other variable here which is genetic response to drugs.  Kevin Levrone and Tom Prince look like nothing without hormones but are two of the biggest bodybuilders ever while on.  I doubt either would even get a natural pro card.

Mike Morris talks about his dosages here:

http://www.getbig.com/iview/morris051229.htm

Were you pretty moderate with your dosages?

"There were times when I was doing a heavy cycle. That would be five shots a week. A shot every day of the week and then two days off. A daily shot would include 250 mg. of Sustanon, 200 mg. of Enthanate and 300 mg. of Deca. So that's 3,750 mgs. a week plus orals. I'd usually take one oral at a time, like D-Bol or Anadrol. I can't speak for other bodybuilders, just for myself and what I've done. Anything over that-man, that's a lot of shit to take a shot with that everyday!"

From top NPC competitor Dave Pulcinella:

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/davepulcinellainterview05052007.html

What do you think about drugs in bodybuilding?

"I remember a guy at a show once telling me he was using three grams a week and that blew my mind. Now that is a low end number."

I encourage all professional bodybuilders to go off drugs and just "work hard" and "eat right" and see how far that takes them. 

[michael arvilla]

You're leaving out a whole other variable here which is genetic response to drugs.  Kevin Levrone and Tom Prince look like nothing without hormones but are two of the biggest bodybuilders ever while on.  I doubt either would even get a natural pro card.

Mike Morris talks about his dosages here:

http://www.getbig.com/iview/morris051229.htm

Were you pretty moderate with your dosages?

"There were times when I was doing a heavy cycle. That would be five shots a week. A shot every day of the week and then two days off. A daily shot would include 250 mg. of Sustanon, 200 mg. of Enthanate and 300 mg. of Deca. So that's 3,750 mgs. a week plus orals. I'd usually take one oral at a time, like D-Bol or Anadrol. I can't speak for other bodybuilders, just for myself and what I've done. Anything over that-man, that's a lot of shit to take a shot with that everyday!"

From top NPC competitor Mike Pulcinella:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/davepulcinellainterview05052007.html

What do you think about drugs in bodybuilding?

"I remember a guy at a show once telling me he was using three grams a week and that blew my mind. Now that is a low end number."

I encourage all professional bodybuilders to go off drugs and just "work hard" and "eat right" and see how far that takes them. 

Mike is Dave"s brother................. .........Mike is not a bodybuilder/nor does he compete

[HowieW]

You're leaving out a whole other variable here which is genetic response to drugs.  Kevin Levrone and Tom Prince look like nothing without hormones but are two of the biggest bodybuilders ever while on.  I doubt either would even get a natural pro card.

Mike Morris talks about his dosages here:

http://www.getbig.com/iview/morris051229.htm

Were you pretty moderate with your dosages?

"There were times when I was doing a heavy cycle. That would be five shots a week. A shot every day of the week and then two days off. A daily shot would include 250 mg. of Sustanon, 200 mg. of Enthanate and 300 mg. of Deca. So that's 3,750 mgs. a week plus orals. I'd usually take one oral at a time, like D-Bol or Anadrol. I can't speak for other bodybuilders, just for myself and what I've done. Anything over that-man, that's a lot of shit to take a shot with that everyday!"

From top NPC competitor Mike Pulcinella:

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/davepulcinellainterview05052007.html

What do you think about drugs in bodybuilding?

"I remember a guy at a show once telling me he was using three grams a week and that blew my mind. Now that is a low end number."

I encourage all professional bodybuilders to go off drugs and just "work hard" and "eat right" and see how far that takes them. 

The bottom line is that we have no real scientfic studies on steroid response with the kind of doseage you refer to here, thus it is more heresay and gym lore, etc.In that light, I admit that I honestly don't know what the "genetic response" effect really is in any objective measure. I do know I was able to do just fine without taking ANYTHING in regional shows against guys that claimed to be on various amounts of juice. I have seen plenty of other guys on either NO drugs or low/moderate levels do pretty well also in regional NPC shows.The most I ever took was like 1 -200 mg shot of decca a week and nothing else at the same time (1983-86 over 20 yrs ago)
I never came close to a pro card and really don't consider the elite , pro level regimes to be relevent to me or 99.9% of us that enjoy bodybuilding. I know for a fact that any guy with decent genetics can do just fine building a good physique on little to no drug use. This is the best of all worlds in my opinion. Build a great physique and strong healthy body that stays young and in shape for years. Then, compete in local/state shows , get a few trophies and have some great times in contests, etc. I also think that going to pro events is a lot of fun.They show what can be done with the best genetics and extreme regimes. I admire thew pros for their physiques, but have no desire to endure what they go thru.  I have a good job and don't need bodybuilding for anything but a healthy lifestyle and sport I enjoy.
Look, if some Joe Blow-Mr Nobody, old fart,  like me can build a 20" arm with just reg training and no extreme drug regimes, I bet a lot of guys can. Plus, I am 49 now and damn near 50.  Yes, I use Androgel to keep my testosterone levels in the ideal -normal range, but that is it.I am NOTHING special and I have done just fine building muscle without having to resort to major, extreme drug use. I am nothing close to a pro physique, but did build some decent muscle size in 31 yrs of pumping iron. THAT is my point

[War-Horse]

Dont need drugs to grow.    need em to help you cut tho, maybe...

[HowieW]

Dont need drugs to grow.    need em to help you cut tho, maybe...

ooooooohhhh, , now THAT cut like a knife....got me 

I am trying to cut now and it ain't easy, but being on a diet is a pain at any age ya know.

[Matt C]

Mike is Dave"s brother................. .........Mike is not a bodybuilder/nor does he compete

Yes I know.  Thanks for pointing out my error.  Fixed.

[War-Horse]

ooooooohhhh, , now THAT cut like a knife....got me 

I am trying to cut now and it ain't easy, but being on a diet is a pain at any age ya know.

Actually it was meant for the thread.   Im a bulky guy like you howie....dieting is a drag...

[HowieW]

Actually it was meant for the thread.   Im a bulky guy like you howie....dieting is a drag...

Ya I didn't take it personal, but in my case..ouch , it hit home LOL.
In 1986 , I did take 2- 50 mg shots each week of winnie V and that made cutting up seem easier. I did still have DIET like a mo-fo however and I was a LOT younger hehe.
I got my most ripped ever in 93-95 by adding in cardio and being real stricct on diet however and NO drugs.

Ok, my main pt was and purpose for posting a recent pic is to show that anyone can build decent muscle mass and then diet to get ripped. I get sick of hearing how you "can't build anything over a 16" arm without drugs".
I really get sick of hearing that  lame excuse, when I know I have built size without drugs and so have plenty of other guys that I have known .

[Matt C]

The most I ever took was like 1 -200 mg shot of decca a week and nothing else at the same time (1983-86 over 20 yrs ago)
I never came close to a pro card and really don't consider the elite , pro level regimes to be relevent to me or 99.9% of us that enjoy bodybuilding.

Oh, so you were another one of those "I was the sole exception among bodybuilders taking 3G test per week + GH + slin, and I actually just took enough to shut down my HPTA and yield no positive anabolic side effects" Lee Priest types who (adjusting for ester weight), would only end up in hormonal shutdown off the amounts you took.  Sorry, not buying it.  And even if you did actually take only 200mg of deca per week I would have to say that is a pretty sordid looking cycle and ask what possibly possessed you to do that. 

Your other points about requiring little if any drugs to build a good physique are well taken.  However, stop saying that you were "just average" and all that false modesty.  We've all seen your pictures and know you were above average for bodybuilding, genetics wise.

[candidizzle]

The bottom line is that we have no real scientfic studies on steroid response with the kind of doseage you refer to here, thus it is more heresay and gym lore, etc..

i really believe that certain people respond much better to aas than others. look at arnold, and levrone for examples.  i know a guy who competed as a natural at a very young age in TOP amatuer shows against guys who were juicing and he did VERY well. alot of guys thought he would be big in the pro's actually. but when he finally did decide to juice, he grew a little, but just looked like an average bodybuilder, instead of looking exceptional, like he had for a natural.

[HowieW]

Oh, so you were another one of those "I was the sole exception among bodybuilders taking 3G test per week + GH + slin, and I actually just took enough to shut down my HPTA and yield no positive anabolic side effects" Lee Priest types who (adjusting for ester weight), would only end up in hormonal shutdown off the amounts you took.  Sorry, not buying it.  And even if you did actually take only 200mg of deca per week I would have to say that is a pretty sordid looking cycle and ask what possibly possessed you to do that.

The one shot of decca was 2 cc's and one vial in size. It was in 1 ampule vials and contained 200 mg of active decca duroblin. Matt,synthetic HGH and some of the other stuff you mentioned was NOT even available back over 20 years ago, so unless I hoped in a time machine, I could not use it. I stopped useing any sterioids in 1987, that is 21 yrs ago. I do take one packet of Androgel a day now the amount my doc prescribed to me. I know what my arms actually measure and I know I am not on any HGH, slin or whatever else you mentioned. I have 2 friends that won the overall NPC Mr La and took next to nothing if anything.
Paul Ware in 1999 and Joe Ned in 2000 (age 49).
My point was and is, you can make decent gains, and do fine in a local or state NPC show without and extreme drugs.
I have done it plenty of times and know others that have as well.
Of course, by feeling this "impossible" LOL,it allows you and others that think like you to have a ready made excuse as to why they can't make gains.
I competed against these 2 guys that bragged about the massive cycles they were on for the AAU Mr Louisiana back in 1993.
I beat both of them with straight 1sts on he judges scores and didn't take jackshit for drugs.
By th way, I take it is a genuine compliment when others don't believe I did this well without any drugs, so thanks.
Howard

[HowieW]

i really believe that certain people respond much better to aas than others. look at arnold, and levrone for examples.  i know a guy who competed as a natural at a very young age in TOP amatuer shows against guys who were juicing and he did VERY well. alot of guys thought he would be big in the pro's actually. but when he finally did decide to juice, he grew a little, but just looked like an average bodybuilder, instead of looking exceptional, like he had for a natural.

Good point, but again too many varibles to know for sure in any ojective way about the reality of drug response to the levels the pros use. No study exists or will be done with that insane amount hehehe.
I do know you can build a good physique WITHOUT drugs like the guy in your post did.
Howard

[Army of One]

I beat both of them with straight 1sts on he judges scores and didn't take jackshit for drugs.

You are talking alot but it would be nice to know how many cycles you did, how long each cycle,what you took strictly for size and how much you gained in each cycle.At the moment saying you can gain size without mass drug use means nothing, 1 gram a week is considered tiny by pro level.

[HowieW]

You are talking alot but it would be nice to know how many cycles you did, how long each cycle,what you took strictly for size and how much you gained in each cycle.At the moment saying you can gain size without mass drug use means nothing, 1 gram a week is considered tiny by pro level.

Ok here goes: In 1983 -84 I did 1 shot of test a week about 200 mg max and NOTHING else  during that cycle for 2 months and then off for 6 weeks. I did some decca  and nothing else, one 200 mg shot a week ( 20% of a gram) for 3 diff 2 month cycles. Before some shows in 85 and 86 I did a couple 50 ml shots of winnie V a week the last 6 weeks before a show.
From 87 ot 95, I did over 20 shows and did just fine on NO drugs. In 1993, I won 2 shows and had not touched a drug in 6 years. I did next to nothing compred to what guys do now. I think this is the reason I felt I made almost as good gains without any drugs. I am 100% honest here and am sincere in my belief and personal experience that drugs are OVER rated in terms of making basic gains for most of us in the gym.
I am nothing special and quite average in terms of genetics and have done just fine without drugs.
My big psych is to do local/regional NON tested NPC shows and see how many guys that juice that I can beat.
I get a kick out of that, while some don't believe me, I could care less.
I remember winning the 1994 NPC La Ironman natural and hearing a lot of former naysayers say damn, I guess Howard is natural. I am trying to suck down a good 35 more lbs lighter ( I have lost 6 so far on my current diet) and compete this fall in the open class on no roids ( just my androgel) at age 49 against guys half my age that juice.
I may not win the overall, but I should do ok at a ripped 210 or so at 5'9".
Howard

[TrueGrit]

Response to AAS is a huge factor in all this.

[HowieW]

Response to AAS is a huge factor in all this.

true, but juicing is not part of my BB world so it is a NON issue to me overall.

[TrueGrit]

true, but juicing is not part of my BB world so it is a NON issue to me overall.

Nor mine Howie. I was more referring to your original point. I think that the response to AAS is the most important factor. Then comes the genetic structure, muscle bellies, intensity.. etc.

I appreciate that most pros like to try to underplay the importance of the cocktails but the fact remains that if they were as unimportant as they try to make out, then they wouldn't spend thousands a month on them.

[HowieW]

Nor mine Howie. I was more referring to your original point. I think that the response to AAS is the most important factor. Then comes the genetic structure, muscle bellies, intensity.. etc.

I appreciate that most pros like to try to underplay the importance of the cocktails but the fact remains that if they were as unimportant as they try to make out, then they wouldn't spend thousands a month on them.

Great pt. I do think the various drug coacktails do make a some difference, no question. But you could put hundreds of gym rats on the same juice and they would still look like crap LOL That is my pt.
Howard

[Army of One]

Ok here goes: In 1983 -84 I did 1 shot of test a week about 200 mg max and NOTHING else  during that cycle for 2 months and then off for 6 weeks. I did some decca  and nothing else, one 200 mg shot a week ( 20% of a gram) for 3 diff 2 month cycles. Before some shows in 85 and 86 I did a couple 50 ml shots of winnie V a week the last 6 weeks before a show.
From 87 ot 95, I did over 20 shows and did just fine on NO drugs. In 1993, I won 2 shows and had not touched a drug in 6 years. I did next to nothing compred to what guys do now. I think this is the reason I felt I made almost as good gains without any drugs. I am 100% honest here and am sincere in my belief and personal experience that drugs are OVER rated in terms of making basic gains for most of us in the gym.
I am nothing special and quite average in terms of genetics and have done just fine without drugs.
My big psych is to do local/regional NON tested NPC shows and see how many guys that juice that I can beat.
I get a kick out of that, while some don't believe me, I could care less.
I remember winning the 1994 NPC La Ironman natural and hearing a lot of former naysayers say damn, I guess Howard is natural. I am trying to suck down a good 35 more lbs lighter ( I have lost 6 so far on my current diet) and compete this fall in the open class on no roids ( just my androgel) at age 49 against guys half my age that juice.
I may not win the overall, but I should do ok at a ripped 210 or so at 5'9".
Howard

4 6-8 weeks cycles of even 200mg test a week is enough to put you ahead of most naturals.

[HowieW]

4 6-8 weeks cycles of even 200mg test a week is enough to put you ahead of most naturals.

I never said it was not a bit of an advantage. BUT, I have not done any of it for over 20 years and am STRONGER now than I was then....go figure.