Olympia 2nd placers - Who should have won the Sandow?

[MCWAY]

You try and make it seem like it is some drama filled soap opera when it's really not. All I can say is if anyone other then Ronnie won it would have been considered the biggest fuck up in IFBB judging history.

I don't have to try. I simply listed the facts, like it or not.

FACT: Flex Wheeler was the favorite to win the 1998 Olympia, especially after a second consecutice ASC win (once again at the expense of 1997 Olympia runner-up, Nasser El Sonbaty).

FACT: Wheeler, El Sonbaty, Levrone, and Ray all placed 2nd at the Olympia in their careers, while Coleman's highest Olympia placing to that point was 6th.

FACT: All of the aforementioned bodybuilders had beaten Coleman REPEATEDLY, especially at the Olympia. (Name one Olympia, prior to 1998 where Coleman placed higher than any of those men).

FACT: Prior to 1998, Wheeler and Coleman faced off multiple times. Of those meetings, Coleman beat Wheeler ONCE (the 1996 Canada Pro Cup, where it took a tie-breaker to get Ronnie the nod).

FACT: Earlier in 1998, Kevin Levrone beat Ronnie Coleman at the San Francisco Pro Invitational.

FACT: If you had asked anyone who was going to walk out with the Sandow that year, Ronnie Coleman's name would have been almost LAST on the list, especially with his placing 9th in 1997.

To top it all off, Ronnie almost went on the stage dry, until someone reminded him that put on his oil.

Why you have this thing against Flex Wheeler, I'll never know. Regardless, the money was on him to win it. The "soap opera" is based on the fact. That's why Ronnie's flop on the floor was so emotional and dramatic. Here's a guy, who placed "16th" as his first Olympia, while some those other guys mentioned debuted as high as 2nd.

Ronnie Coleman won the 1998 Olympia, which was great. But, your trying to pretend that his win wasn't one of the biggest SURPRISES in bodybuilding history, is quite disingenuous.

[Earl1972]

"mikethamachine" is showing how much of a newbie he is

E

[fearANDloathing]

The Black Prince

If EVER there was an Uncrowned Mr Olympia, Robby is it!! He'd crush a lot of today's Pros as well but back then they wanted a 185lb swimmer as Mr O 

[MikeThaMachine]

I don't have to try. I simply listed the facts, like it or not.

FACT: Flex Wheeler was the favorite to win the 1998 Olympia, especially after a second consecutice ASC win (once again at the expense of 1997 Olympia runner-up, Nasser El Sonbaty).

FACT: Wheeler, El Sonbaty, Levrone, and Ray all placed 2nd at the Olympia in their careers, while Coleman's highest Olympia placing to that point was 6th.

FACT: All of the aforementioned bodybuilders had beaten Coleman REPEATEDLY, especially at the Olympia. (Name one Olympia, prior to 1998 where Coleman placed higher than any of those men).

FACT: Prior to 1998, Wheeler and Coleman faced off multiple times. Of those meetings, Coleman beat Wheeler ONCE (the 1996 Canada Pro Cup, where it took a tie-breaker to get Ronnie the nod).

FACT: Earlier in 1998, Kevin Levrone beat Ronnie Coleman at the San Francisco Pro Invitational.

FACT: If you had asked anyone who was going to walk out with the Sandow that year, Ronnie Coleman's name would have been almost LAST on the list, especially with his placing 9th in 1997.

To top it all off, Ronnie almost went on the stage dry, until someone reminded him that put on his oil.

Why you have this thing against Flex Wheeler, I'll never know. Regardless, the money was on him to win it. The "soap opera" is based on the fact. That's why Ronnie's flop on the floor was so emotional and dramatic. Here's a guy, who placed "16th" as his first Olympia, while some those other guys mentioned debuted as high as 2nd.

Ronnie Coleman won the 1998 Olympia, which was great. But, your trying to pretend that his win wasn't one of the biggest SURPRISES in bodybuilding history, is quite disingenuous.

I never disputed any of your "facts", I don't see why you keep trying to pound them into my head... I don't think you are getting the fact that no matter what way you look at it Ronnie owned everyone on stage that night. Some people may have had their favorites or "by the numbers" they had some kind of an advantage but it doesn't matter when in the end it's clear no one other then Ronnie should have won. I don't give a shit what the scorecards say because for the most part that don't account for shit on a round by round analysis. But in the end I guess it was a big surprise.... IN 1998 YOU DIP SHIT, anyone with two eyes that saw that show and didn't know who anyone was would pick Ronnie to win without a doubt. The only people it surprised were those driven by the Wheeler and Sonbaty hype train.

[MCWAY]

I never disputed any of your "facts", I don't see why you keep trying to pound them into my head... I don't think you are getting the fact that no matter what way you look at it Ronnie owned everyone on stage that night. Some people may have had their favorites or "by the numbers" they had some kind of an advantage but it doesn't matter when in the end it's clear no one other then Ronnie should have won. I don't give a shit what the scorecards say because for the most part that don't account for shit on a round by round analysis. But in the end I guess it was a big surprise.... IN 1998 YOU DIP SHIT, anyone with two eyes that saw that show and didn't know who anyone was would pick Ronnie to win without a doubt. The only people it surprised were those driven by the Wheeler and Sonbaty hype train.

You mean, no matter what way YOU look at it. Ronnie didn't "own" anyone; he simply won the show. You don't "own" anybody, when you have to come from behind to win, as Coleman did that night.

The scorecards go round by round, so your not caring about them makes precious little difference in the matter. Rounds one and two, Flex Wheeler topped Ronnie Coleman; Rounds three and four, Coleman came out on top and was able to close the gap. End result: Ronnie wins by THREE points, harding "owning" anyone, but walking out victorious.

What most ridiculous about this post of yours is the "without a doubt" claim with regards to Coleman. Few, if ANY, expected Ronnie to win this show. It shocked virtually everyone......INCLUDING COLEMAN, HIMSELF!!! Why else do you think it took what seemed to be an eternity to get a tear-soaked Ronnie Coleman off the ground, when Flex Wheeler was announced to be in 2nd place?

He leaped forn 9th to 1st in one year, defeating guys that had been beating him continually for over 6 years straight.

The show was a neck-and-neck race, with Coleman edging Wheeler for the top spot, period.

[Hulkster]

I don't have to try. I simply listed the facts, like it or not.

FACT: Flex Wheeler was the favorite to win the 1998 Olympia, especially after a second consecutice ASC win (once again at the expense of 1997 Olympia runner-up, Nasser El Sonbaty).

FACT: Wheeler, El Sonbaty, Levrone, and Ray all placed 2nd at the Olympia in their careers, while Coleman's highest Olympia placing to that point was 6th.

FACT: All of the aforementioned bodybuilders had beaten Coleman REPEATEDLY, especially at the Olympia. (Name one Olympia, prior to 1998 where Coleman placed higher than any of those men).

FACT: Prior to 1998, Wheeler and Coleman faced off multiple times. Of those meetings, Coleman beat Wheeler ONCE (the 1996 Canada Pro Cup, where it took a tie-breaker to get Ronnie the nod).

FACT: Earlier in 1998, Kevin Levrone beat Ronnie Coleman at the San Francisco Pro Invitational.

FACT: If you had asked anyone who was going to walk out with the Sandow that year, Ronnie Coleman's name would have been almost LAST on the list, especially with his placing 9th in 1997.

To top it all off, Ronnie almost went on the stage dry, until someone reminded him that put on his oil.

Why you have this thing against Flex Wheeler, I'll never know. Regardless, the money was on him to win it. The "soap opera" is based on the fact. That's why Ronnie's flop on the floor was so emotional and dramatic. Here's a guy, who placed "16th" as his first Olympia, while some those other guys mentioned debuted as high as 2nd.

Ronnie Coleman won the 1998 Olympia, which was great. But, your trying to pretend that his win wasn't one of the biggest SURPRISES in bodybuilding history, is quite disingenuous.

it was a surprise, but only BEFORE Ronnie stepped on stage.

Once on stage, it was game over for flex.

Ronnie was that much better than Flex in 98

the fact is, Ronnie owned flex that night - made him look soft and narrow.l

[The Squadfather]

it was a surprise, but only BEFORE Ronnie stepped on stage.

Once on stage, it was game over for flex.

Ronnie was that much better than Flex in 98

the fact is, Ronnie owned flex that night - made him look soft and narrow.l

hahahhahaaa, brutal ownage.

[Hulkster]

WHAT!!!??? The judges looked at Ronnie during ALL FOUR ROUNDS.

sure. but only after he was overlooked in round 1.

he was not called out in the first call out, the first time that a Mr. O. won without being called out in the first call out in many many years.

since 1984 when haney won if I recall.

[Hulkster]

Domination is not winning by three points. And, as mentioned earlier, prior to the 1998 Olympia, Coleman had only defeated Wheeler ONCE.

No matter how you try to slant it, the 1998 Olympia was a close battle. Ronnie Coleman got the win, by a slim margin; but he got it, nonetheless.

Ronnie didn't "dominate" anyone that year, or did you also forget that, earlier that year, he lost to Kevin Levrone at the San Francisco Pro Invitational, a loss he would avenge a bit later at the '98 Night of Champions.

Bottom line: Ronnie Coleman won the '98 Olympia. But, his win hardly one of "domination".

you are confusing your apples and oranges.

if you go by the scorecards only, it was close. Ronnie won by 3 points.

if you go by what everyone saw on stage, it was not close at all: Ronnie dominated - look for yourself.

these are two different things.

the judges scoring in this sport is famously inaccurate at times - hence why this thread even exists in the first place.

this thread is about who SHOULD have won the sandow - ie the judges scoring does not match up to what is seen onstage at times.

I find it ironic that you are insisting that the scoring in 1998 was 100% accurate despite the domination of Flex onstage- in a thread devoted to inaccurate scoring...

[MikeThaMachine]

you are confusing your apples and oranges.

if you go by the scorecards only, it was close. Ronnie won by 3 points.

if you go by what everyone saw on stage, it was not close at all: Ronnie dominated - look for yourself.

these are two different things.

the judges scoring in this sport is famously inaccurate at times - hence why this thread even exists in the first place.

this thread is about who SHOULD have won the sandow - ie the judges scoring does not match up to what is seen onstage at times.

I find it ironic that you are insisting that the scoring in 1998 was 100% accurate despite the domination of Flex onstage- in a thread devoted to inaccurate scoring...

Finally you got here, I really couldn't stand trying to argue with him anymore, I don't have the patience (or moronic values) that you have. I just can't believe he keeps making it seem like Ronnie barely won, I mean yeah it would have been a surprise that night in 1998 if someone told you before the pre-judging or even maybe the night show but seriously had Ronnie lost that show it would have been the biggest travesty in BBing history.

[MCWAY]

you are confusing your apples and oranges.

if you go by the scorecards only, it was close. Ronnie won by 3 points.

if you go by what everyone saw on stage, it was not close at all: Ronnie dominated - look for yourself.

I've seen it, just as I saw it nearly 10 years ago. And, what I've said then, I've said now.

these are two different things.

the judges scoring in this sport is famously inaccurate at times - hence why this thread even exists in the first place.

this thread is about who SHOULD have won the sandow - ie the judges scoring does not match up to what is seen onstage at times.

I find it ironic that you are insisting that the scoring in 1998 was 100% accurate despite the domination of Flex onstage- in a thread devoted to inaccurate scoring...

I never claimed it was 100% accurate. What I've said is that Ronnie edged Flex to win the title. And that backs my initial statement that Flex was closer to winning the Olympia in 1998 than he was in 1993.

[Moosejay]

If EVER there was an Uncrowned Mr Olympia, Robby is it!! He'd crush a lot of today's Pros as well but back then they wanted a 185lb swimmer as Mr O 

No.

Zane won his O titles between 187 and 195 pounds.

Robby was great. However, he was always off in each Olympia he competed in.

[Hulkster]

I've seen it, just as I saw it nearly 10 years ago. And, what I've said then, I've said now.

and you would be just as wrong if you thought it was so close then as you are now..

[MikeThaMachine]

and you would be just as wrong if you thought it was so close then as you are now..

HAHAHAHAHA Exactly, he was on the Flex Wheeler hype train and for some strange reason thinks he should have actually won an Olympia while being an oiled filled bag of shit.

[Iceman1981]

What most ridiculous about this post of yours is the "without a doubt" claim with regards to Coleman. Few, if ANY, expected Ronnie to win this show. It shocked virtually everyone......INCLUDING COLEMAN, HIMSELF!!! Why else do you think it took what seemed to be an eternity to get a tear-soaked Ronnie Coleman off the ground, when Flex Wheeler was announced to be in 2nd place?

The show was a neck-and-neck race, with Coleman edging Wheeler for the top spot, period.

The show was not a neck and neck race. Ronnie owned Flex that night from beginning to end. A report stating that Ronnie was the clear winner and won big and a interview with Flex admitting he knew he lost:

1998 Mr. Olympia Report

http://www.maxmuscle.com/index.cfm?fa=article&doc_id=22&subcat=body_building

"Coleman not only won, but he won big. "It wasn't really close," said Phillips. "Coleman just walked on stage and virtually everyone in the audience who wasn't totally partisan knew it was over. He was really quite overwhelming." From the beginning of the show to the end."


Flex Wheeler Interview by INTERVIEW by J.M. Manion

1998 Mr. Olympia

http://www.npcnewsonline.com/new/interviews/flexinterview.htm

"I thought I had barely squeezed off enough, but I had no idea Ronnie was going to look like that and I had to match up against not being my best."

"JM: When they announced you in second place, what went through your head?

FW: You know honestly I knew that I didn't win. I knew I didn't win after the prejudging because I sit down and I talk to everybody that I talk to. Obviously I couldn't show them what they wanted to see. So that happened. I talked to all the writers and I told them my feelings and they said they disagreed and that yes, Ronnie looked ridiculous."

[MCWAY]

HAHAHAHAHA Exactly, he was on the Flex Wheeler hype train and for some strange reason thinks he should have actually won an Olympia while being an oiled filled bag of shit.

Incorrect!! I actually picked Levrone to win the Olympia. Your obsession with this hatred of Flex Wheeler has also blinded you to the fact that I never stated that Flex should have won an Olympia. What I said (once again) was that he was much closer to winning one in 1998 than he was in 1993, as he only lost to Ronnie Coleman by three points.

The show was not a neck and neck race. Ronnie owned Flex that night from beginning to end. A report stating that Ronnie was the clear winner and won big and a interview with Flex admitting he knew he lost:

1998 Mr. Olympia Report

http://www.maxmuscle.com/index.cfm?fa=article&doc_id=22&subcat=body_building

"Coleman not only won, but he won big. "It wasn't really close," said Phillips. "Coleman just walked on stage and virtually everyone in the audience who wasn't totally partisan knew it was over. He was really quite overwhelming." From the beginning of the show to the end."


Flex Wheeler Interview by INTERVIEW by J.M. Manion

1998 Mr. Olympia

http://www.npcnewsonline.com/new/interviews/flexinterview.htm

"I thought I had barely squeezed off enough, but I had no idea Ronnie was going to look like that and I had to match up against not being my best."

"JM: When they announced you in second place, what went through your head?

FW: You know honestly I knew that I didn't win. I knew I didn't win after the prejudging because I sit down and I talk to everybody that I talk to. Obviously I couldn't show them what they wanted to see. So that happened. I talked to all the writers and I told them my feelings and they said they disagreed and that yes, Ronnie looked ridiculous."

Well, I have a different report, courtesy of MuscleMag International.

From Issue 201, MuscleMag International--an interview from Johnny Fitness with Flex Wheeler, 3 days after the 1998 Olympia:

JF: How did you feel when you knew you'd missed first by just three point?

FW: Surprised!

JF: Would you like to enlarge on that?

FW: Yes, if you like. I knew that Ronnie was going to be strong. Anyone looking for muscle could see at at glance that he had me and most of the others beat on size. He won the muscularity round. Fair enough. I consider myself to have had the edge on him in overall proportion. So did the judges. I won the symmetry round. By the time we reached the posing round, I believe I was seven points ahead

I told myself that in the event I messed up (unlikely, I felt, because posing is one of my strong points) I could be down two, three, even four points and still win. Will, as we all now know, I didn't win. I've been trying to think the situation through in terms of the IFBB's own rules, and I'm still puzzled. I've nothing against Ronnie. He'a a gread athlete. I'm pleased for him, but he too was shocked at beating me by so much in round four.

As for Fitness' report on the Olympia itself, here's a small blurb of his report from that show:

Winning the 1998 Olympia title was not a walk in the park for this quiet Texan, anything but. There's not a bodybuilder alive who can take the challenge of Flex, nasser, Kevin, Shawn without being in the condition of a lifetime. Even then, he'd have to pray that the four giants of our sport somehow managed to have less than a perfect contests themselves. In a worn, Ronnie woudl have to be PERFECT. Only, he wasn't! And that's the fairy-tale part of his success in New York.....

Then the fantasy unfolded. The word went out, "Oil, Ronnie!" and led by the world's best seamstress, Cynthia James,  the big man had running repairs and an oil change throughout rounds one and two. the next lucky break of sorts was all to do with sweat. Flex, having been called out for the first round comparisons, was left a little longer to flatten out than Ronnie, who was sweating profusely, began to tighten up like a drum. Nevertheless, by evening, Flex--who achieved a perfect score in Round One, and Ronnie the same in Round Two--was still seven points ahead. It would take a major win in the posing round over Flex for Ronnie to take the title, and Flex is one helluva poser!

Even Ronnie, and his best fan ever, Vickie Gates, were doubtful. The task seemed impossible. But somehow, they pulled it off. I say they, becase Vickie and Ronnie are as one. She has helped Ronnie every step of the way. They are inseperable as a team both inside and outside the gym. The crowd first sensed an upset druing round three, and by the evening show the word was out again. Ronnie could do it. The chant went up, "Ronnie, Ronnie, Ronnie!!" Quietly and spasmodically, at first, then much louder and rhythmically, "Ron-nie! Ron-nie! Ron-nie!"

[Matt C]

"mikethamachine" is showing how much of a newbie he is

E

Earl,

Do you think Kevin should have ever beaten Ronnie?

[England_1]

If you've seen the 98 Olympia videotape you'd know that when they interviewed the fans prior everyone said it was either gonna be Flex or Ronnie. So no it wasn't a surprise, especially when you consider Coleman's NOC performance that year.

[chaos]

All drugs.

[CigaretteMan]

Shawn Ray should have at least one,

  Too small...

Nasser should have at least one

  Too incomplete...

and Flex should have at least one.

  Not with the conditioning he showed up for the Olympia with...

[Camel Jockey]

Dorian shouldn't have won anything after 1993.. I think 94 was year he tore his left bicep. No way he should have been allowed to keen on winning with the horrible tear.

Levrone, Nasser and Ray should have split atleast 4 of Dorian's Olympias.

Danny Padilla should have won in 1981. Franco Columbo winning was the biggest screw job ever.

Jay should have won in 2001. Vic should have gotten it in 2007.

[The Squadfather]

Dorian shouldn't have won anything after 1993.. I think 94 was year he tore his left bicep. No way he should have been allowed to keen on winning with the horrible tear.

Levrone, Nasser and Ray should have split atleast 4 of Dorian's Olympias.

Danny Padilla should have won in 1981. Franco Columbo winning was the biggest screw job ever.

Jay should have won in 2001. Vic should have gotten it in 2007.

Bertil Fox should have won in 83 as well.

[dr.chimps]

Nasser in 1997 remians the most disgusting and corrupt event ever in the history of the sport. That is followed by the hypocritical treatment he got in 1996.

 That tattooed creature with its huge gut and racist tattoos did not deserve to beat Nasser. Nasser was the most 'shafted' (that word make sense? ) bodybuilder of all time.

I still get angry for him that he sacrificed a career as a doctor or lawyer only to enter a sport where the best body does not win and a revolting convict is simply given his title

LOL. I think you over- or under-rotated your spin on this reply, Sharma. Dizzy? 
 

[Earl1972]

Earl,

Do you think Kevin should have ever beaten Ronnie?

2000 and 2002

E

[The Squadfather]

2000 and 2002

E

i agree with 02 but not 2000, IMO Levrone is the uncrowned 2002 Mr. Olympia, Ronnie looked terrible in 02.