Author Topic: How does the presidency affect you personally?  (Read 9358 times)

Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2008, 09:05:57 AM »
Judge: NSA warrantless wiretapping unconstitutional
Updated 8/17/2006 10:44 PM ET

By David Jackson, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — President Bush's warrantless surveillance program is unconstitutional because it authorizes illegal searches, a federal judge ruled Thursday.
"There are no hereditary kings in America and no powers not created by the Constitution," wrote U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor in Detroit.
 
. . .

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-17-judge-nsa_x.htm
FISA requires judicial oversight of the warrant process.

Bush blew that off.

He'd still be trampling our 4th A rights if he hadn't been caught breaking the law.

He got caught.

The court's holding that Bush broke the law is not how our checks and balances of power works.

Bush should have consulted Congress to change the law instead just ignoring it committing a felony.

Since Congress won't impeach Bush for that penalty, he skates for the moment.

Dos Equis

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2008, 09:32:23 AM »
FISA requires judicial oversight of the warrant process.

Bush blew that off.

He'd still be trampling our 4th A rights if he hadn't been caught breaking the law.

He got caught.

The court's holding that Bush broke the law is not how our checks and balances of power works.

Bush should have consulted Congress to change the law instead just ignoring it committing a felony.

Since Congress won't impeach Bush for that penalty, he skates for the moment.

Spin it however you like.  Bush did what he thought was right.  The judiciary stepped in and disagreed.  Bush followed the judiciary's interpretation of the law.  System worked.  He was checked. 

Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2008, 10:28:24 AM »
Spin it however you like.  Bush did what he thought was right.  The judiciary stepped in and disagreed.  Bush followed the judiciary's interpretation of the law.  System worked.  He was checked. 
Bush knowingly broke the law.

He was outed by the NY Times.

Bush did not consult Congress at all.  He just ignored the law.  Is that how 'checks & balances" works Beach Bum?  The president breaks the law (does what he thinks is right? ? ?) and is questioned only after he is caught?

I don't think so.  Congress makes the laws and the President enforces the laws.  How is breaking the law enforcing the law?

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2008, 11:35:38 AM »
Bush knowingly broke the law.

He was outed by the NY Times.

Bush did not consult Congress at all.  He just ignored the law.  Is that how 'checks & balances" works Beach Bum?  The president breaks the law (does what he thinks is right? ? ?) and is questioned only after he is caught?

I don't think so.  Congress makes the laws and the President enforces the laws.  How is breaking the law enforcing the law?

It's cricket season.

Dos Equis

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2008, 02:51:05 PM »
Bush knowingly broke the law.

He was outed by the NY Times.

Bush did not consult Congress at all.  He just ignored the law.  Is that how 'checks & balances" works Beach Bum?  The president breaks the law (does what he thinks is right? ? ?) and is questioned only after he is caught?

I don't think so.  Congress makes the laws and the President enforces the laws.  How is breaking the law enforcing the law?

Whether Bush "knowingly broke the law" is your opinion.  The system worked.  Executive branch acted in a way it believed was consistent with the law.  Judiciary branch disagreed and ordered executive branch to stop.  Executive branch stopped.  So yes, that is precisely how "checks and balances" works. 

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2008, 03:19:31 PM »
Whether Bush "knowingly broke the law" is your opinion.  The system worked.  Executive branch acted in a way it believed was consistent with the law.  Judiciary branch disagreed and ordered executive branch to stop.  Executive branch stopped.  So yes, that is precisely how "checks and balances" works. 

Uh... No they didn't. Executive branch stated it didn't care what the Judiciary branch said, and it would continue to do what it was doing. That's not a "check and balance". That's an open declaration of defiance, and a claim to being above the law. It is a liberty that has been taken, and a dereliction of his sworn duty to uphold the law.
w

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2008, 04:00:07 PM »
Uh... No they didn't. Executive branch stated it didn't care what the Judiciary branch said, and it would continue to do what it was doing. That's not a "check and balance". That's an open declaration of defiance, and a claim to being above the law. It is a liberty that has been taken, and a dereliction of his sworn duty to uphold the law.

O Rly?  Warrantless wiretaps continued after a judge said they were unconstitutional?  Proof? 

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2008, 04:16:43 PM »
O Rly?  Warrantless wiretaps continued after a judge said they were unconstitutional?  Proof? 

I won't waste time to find something that isn't even required. Whether or not they continued is irrelevant.


That's an open declaration of defiance, and a claim to being above the law. It is a liberty that has been taken, and a dereliction of his sworn duty to uphold the law.

One does not uphold a law, by declaring to be above it.
By doing so, you undermine the very authority you have sworn to abide by and uphold.
w

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2008, 04:50:28 PM »
I won't waste time to find something that isn't even required. Whether or not they continued is irrelevant.


One does not uphold a law, by declaring to be above it.
By doing so, you undermine the very authority you have sworn to abide by and uphold.

I don't blame you.  I wouldn't waste my time looking for something that likely doesn't exist either.  If it's your belief that Bush continued warrantless wiretaps after a judge ruled they were unconstitutional, then just say that, instead of "Executive branch stated it didn't care what the Judiciary branch said, and it would continue to do what it was doing."  What's the factual basis for that statement?     

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2008, 05:24:30 PM »
I don't blame you.  I wouldn't waste my time looking for something that likely doesn't exist either.  If it's your belief that Bush continued warrantless wiretaps after a judge ruled they were unconstitutional, then just say that, instead of "Executive branch stated it didn't care what the Judiciary branch said, and it would continue to do what it was doing."  What's the factual basis for that statement?     



Huh?! "What's the factual basis for that statement?"  ??? 

GWB himself!

I thought that much was clear. Appearently not. Please help me to understand where you're coming from.
Is it that you don't understand my statement, or is it that you don't believe GWB made these declarations at all?
 
w

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2008, 06:04:52 PM »


Huh?! "What's the factual basis for that statement?"  ??? 

GWB himself!

I thought that much was clear. Appearently not. Please help me to understand where you're coming from.
Is it that you don't understand my statement, or is it that you don't believe GWB made these declarations at all?
 


I'm talking about after the judge ruled they were unconstitutional.  If Bush conducted warrantless wiretaps after the court's ruling, then I would say you might be correct.   

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2008, 06:09:31 PM »
I'm talking about after the judge ruled they were unconstitutional.  If Bush conducted warrantless wiretaps after the court's ruling, then I would say you might be correct.   

His declarations came after the judge ruled them unconstitutional; infact were a direct result of the judge's ruling.
w

Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2008, 07:39:38 AM »
Whether Bush "knowingly broke the law" is your opinion.  The system worked.  Executive branch acted in a way it believed was consistent with the law.  Judiciary branch disagreed and ordered executive branch to stop.  Executive branch stopped.  So yes, that is precisely how "checks and balances" works. 
Again, the checks and balances system does not work this way:

The president ignores completely a federal statute requiring warrants for searches (since 2000 or 2002 depending on the source);

The president is caught breaking this federal statute by a private third party that publishes the crime (NY Times);

A court tells the president to stop breaking the law.

And as for Bush knowingly ignoring FISA...he admitted that in a national radio address:

In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051217.html

I guess I am spinning.  Why Pres. Bush said the program is legal.  I feel foolish. 

But what of this?  The Justice Department determined that the program is illegal.  Liars!

No more than four Justice Department officials had access to details of the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance program when the department deemed portions of it illegal, following a pattern of poor consultation that helped create a "legal mess," a former Justice official told Congress yesterday.

...Jack L. Goldsmith, former head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, who led an internal Justice Department review of the surveillance effort completed more than two years after the surveillance began, said he "could not find a legal basis for some aspects of the program."

"It was the biggest legal mess I had ever encountered," Goldsmith said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/02/AR2007100201083.html


The superlatives have run the course with this administration:  worst foreign policy blunder in history and biggest legal mess ever encountered.

Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2008, 07:45:28 AM »
I'm talking about after the judge ruled they were unconstitutional.  If Bush conducted warrantless wiretaps after the court's ruling, then I would say you might be correct.   
That's just ridiculous reasoning. 

The FISA law was there in black and white Beach Bum.  I hate analogies but say the president shot Harry Reid to death b/c he believed the democrats were undermining the war on terror.

Would we have to wait until a court ruled on that act before it became illegal?

No.

Laws, like FISA, exist to influence behavior. 

In the FISA case, the law protected americans's 4th A rights by compelling the government to consult with the FISA court in requesting a warrant to spy on US citizens.

Bush knew that and he ignored it.

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2008, 07:55:26 AM »
Its pretty simple...make it legal. Until such time as it is...then i would agree he has to stop. Our intel folks need everything in their arsenal...but I would also submit that it needs to be in line with a more measured approach to foreign policy. Iraq was a mistake, but its a mistake we're stuck with.
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Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2008, 08:20:10 AM »
Its pretty simple...make it legal. Until such time as it is...then i would agree he has to stop. Our intel folks need everything in their arsenal...but I would also submit that it needs to be in line with a more measured approach to foreign policy. Iraq was a mistake, but its a mistake we're stuck with.
Absolutely.  All he had to do was go to Congress and arrange to have the law suspended or modified.  That can be done in secret.

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2008, 05:04:09 PM »
His declarations came after the judge ruled them unconstitutional; infact were a direct result of the judge's ruling.

It sounds like you're confusing his disagreement with the court ruling with a stated intent to disobey the court ruling.  He said the court was wrong.  I haven't read anywhere where he said (as you claim) the administration "would continue to do what it was doing."

Dos Equis

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2008, 05:07:32 PM »
Again, the checks and balances system does not work this way:

The president ignores completely a federal statute requiring warrants for searches (since 2000 or 2002 depending on the source);

The president is caught breaking this federal statute by a private third party that publishes the crime (NY Times);

A court tells the president to stop breaking the law.

And as for Bush knowingly ignoring FISA...he admitted that in a national radio address:

In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051217.html

I guess I am spinning.  Why Pres. Bush said the program is legal.  I feel foolish. 

But what of this?  The Justice Department determined that the program is illegal.  Liars!

No more than four Justice Department officials had access to details of the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance program when the department deemed portions of it illegal, following a pattern of poor consultation that helped create a "legal mess," a former Justice official told Congress yesterday.

...Jack L. Goldsmith, former head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, who led an internal Justice Department review of the surveillance effort completed more than two years after the surveillance began, said he "could not find a legal basis for some aspects of the program."

"It was the biggest legal mess I had ever encountered," Goldsmith said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/02/AR2007100201083.html


The superlatives have run the course with this administration:  worst foreign policy blunder in history and biggest legal mess ever encountered.

Yes, this is classic spin.  I'm not going to defend what he did, because I don't agree with warrantless wiretaps, but he apparently believed that law didn't apply to their activities.  So to say he "knowingly" broke the law is in fact nothing more than your opinion.  The system did exactly what it was supposed to do. 

And at the end of the day, wasn't the judge overruled anyway? 

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2008, 05:17:04 PM »
That's just ridiculous reasoning. 

The FISA law was there in black and white Beach Bum.  I hate analogies but say the president shot Harry Reid to death b/c he believed the democrats were undermining the war on terror.

Would we have to wait until a court ruled on that act before it became illegal?

No.

Laws, like FISA, exist to influence behavior. 

In the FISA case, the law protected americans's 4th A rights by compelling the government to consult with the FISA court in requesting a warrant to spy on US citizens.

Bush knew that and he ignored it.

You know what the man was thinking eh?  Jedi mind trick?   :)  So I spent a minute (if that long) looking on the internet and lo and behold I found someone who doesn't think this is black and white.  How ridiculous is that?  (Keep in mind this goes to whether Bush believed he was violating the law, not whether I believe his actions were appropriate.)

Former CIA agent belittles Judge Diggs decision.

By Bryan Cunningham

The Honorable Anna Diggs-Taylor probably means well. The lone judge in American history to order a president to halt in wartime a foreign-intelligence-collection program that has undoubtedly saved lives probably sympathizes with the journalists, and others, who are suing to stop the Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP) in which NSA intercepts foreign-U.S. terrorist communications. She probably feels in her heart the program is wrong, and undoubtedly hears the footsteps of the federal judicial panel moving towards taking this case away from her and consolidating it with others.
We can sympathize with her motives, and even share some of her gut feelings of uneasiness about the program. But we cannot accept the stunningly amateurish piece of, I hesitate even to call it legal work, by which she purports to make our government go deaf and dumb to those would murder us en masse. Her bosses on the Court of Appeals and/or the United States Supreme Court will not accept it.

Much will be said about this opinion in the coming days. I’ll start with this: I wouldn’t accept this utterly unsupported, constitutionally and logically bankrupt collection of musings from a first-year law student, much less a new lawyer at my firm. Why not? Herewith, a start at a very long list of what’s wrong with Judge Taylor’s opinion.

Process Fouls. When you sue your plumber over a disputed $50 invoice, before deciding who wins, the judge is required to jump through some minor constitutional hoops like actually hearing evidence (as opposed to press reports), holding hearings, and reading and understanding the briefs filed and the laws at issue. Judge Taylor appears to have taken none of these rudimentary steps before issuing one of the most sweeping wartime legal rulings in our nation’s history. Experts on both sides agree it is impossible to decide the crucial Fourth and First Amendment issues in this case without detailed, factual knowledge of precisely what the government is doing (see, e.g., the brief I filed with the Washington Legal Foundation, at www.morgancunningham.net, and the excellent testimony of David Kris, at http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2006_hr/index.html). Judge Taylor apparently needs no more facts than what she reads in the papers.

Worse, the judge clearly failed to do enough homework to understand the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act itself, much less the Fourth Amendment. She gets basic provisions of the statute itself wrong, e.g., apparently believing that a provision explicitly dealing with foreign agent/non-U.S. persons communications constitutes an “exception” to FISA’s warrant requirements. She also seems to make the elementary and fatal mistake made by many commentators, that the government can, under FISA, listen in on conversations for 72 hours without meeting FISA’s substantive and procedural tests. This is simply false. NSA cannot lawfully, under FISA, listen to a single syllable of a covered communication until it can prove to the Attorney General (usually in writing) that it can jump through each and every one of FISA’s procedural and substantive hoops. These basic errors could have been corrected had the court bothered to gather any evidence or hold substantive hearings.

More worrisome still are the judge’s breathtaking mistakes in analyzing the Fourth and First Amendments—errors that would earn our first-year law student an “F.” Here’s one of several examples: The judge asserts that the Fourth Amendment, in all cases, “requires prior warrants for any reasonable search, based upon prior-existing probable cause.” She cites no legal authority whatsoever for this colossal misstatement of the law, because none exists. Instead, there are numerous situations where our courts have found no prior warrant is required, so long as a search is “reasonable.” Fatal to her position is the very Supreme Court case she herself cites. This landmark 1972 electronic-surveillance decision, the Keith case, makes clear that, though it establishes a warrant requirement for purely domestic security cases (decidedly not what the TSP is, raising the alarming possibility the judge may think the TSP is a “domestic” program), the Fourth Amendment does not always require a prior warrant for government searches. Rather, the need for warrants depends on a balancing of the government’s legitimate needs, such as protecting us from attack, against other constitutional interests.

Lest there be any doubt as to whether Keith supported Judge Taylor’s view about the warrant requirement for communications with overseas terrorist groups, the Keith court stated that “the instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President’s surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country.”

While Keith at least left open the question, a post-FISA case, also cited by Judge Taylor herself (In re Falvey), could not have more clearly dispensed with her claimed warrant requirement: “When, therefore, the President has, as his primary purpose, the accumulation of foreign intelligence information, his exercise of Article II power to conduct foreign affairs is not constitutionally hamstrung by the need to obtain prior judicial approval before engaging in wiretapping.”

Apparently Judge Taylor failed to read that portion of the Falvey opinion. She makes similarly striking mistakes on the issues of standing and separation-of-powers. Which brings us to the heart of the problem with the judge’s missive.

Ignoring Contrary Authority. Under legal-ethics rules, deliberately failing to call to a court’s attention legal authority contrary to one’s position is grounds for disciplinary action. In addition to the above, here are several more examples of this unpardonable legal sin in Judge Taylor’s opinion.

Appeals Court Cherry-Picking. The judge relies heavily on the D. C. Circuit Court of Appeals plurality (less than majority) opinion in Zweibon v. Mitchell. That case suggests in dicta (language not necessary to decide the case, and, therefore, of no precedential value) that all electronic surveillance, even for foreign intelligence involving an overseas connection, may require prior warrants. Judge Taylor fails to mention, however, that, while Zweibon didn’t actually reach this question, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review (the appellate court set up explicitly to have the foreign-intelligence and national-security expertise Judge Taylor clearly lacks) did. Here’s what it said (in 2002): “[A]ll . . . courts to have decided the issue, held the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information.’

Utterly ignoring this 2002 FISA Court of Review opinion, as well as the numerous 1970s-’80s federal appeals and district court decisions directly opposed to her position, Judge Taylor offers instead an extended discussion of a 1765 case from England.

Selective Reading Redux. The judge discusses at length Justice Jackson’s concurring opinion in Youngstown Sheet and Tube, without bothering to mention:

—that Justice Jackson himself, in that very opinion, disavowed the application of the opinion beyond that case’s primarily domestic context (seizure of U.S. steel mills in the face of a union strike);

—that our courts long after Youngstown emphasized its limitations to primarily domestic cases and that other legal authorities more appropriately govern primarily foreign-affairs/foreign-intelligence-collection cases, such as the TSP; or

—most importantly, the entire line of Supreme Court and other decisions, most famously including Curtiss-Wright Export, cited many times since Youngstown, making clear the president’s constitutional primacy in foreign-affairs/foreign-intelligence collection, upon which neither Congress nor the courts may intrude.

Lawyers and judges are free to argue that contrary authority does not control a particular decision. They are not free ethically to disregard the vast majority of cases rejecting their position, selectively citing the single case arguably supporting them.

Trivial Pursuit. Perhaps most disturbing about the judge’s opinion is the trivial way it treats the Fourth and First Amendments to our Constitution. In landmark cases balancing wartime needs with cherished principles in the Bill of Rights, our great judges and justices have painstakingly analyzed all applicable authority, soberly balancing our crucial national interests and values. Judge Taylor spends a total of three double-spaced pages addressing the Fourth Amendment and little more than two addressing the First Amendment. Her reasoning, to the extent one can follow it, is little more than one would find in watching a surreal “Schoolhouse Rock” episode. The Fourth Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches. All searches without warrants are unreasonable (which, as noted above, is flatly wrong). Therefore, with no case support cited, Judge Taylor finds the TSP unconstitutional. The First Amendment protects free speech, which, defying the dictionary meaning of the word, she asserts the TSP “regulates.” FISA prohibits targeting persons for surveillance solely for activities protected by the First Amendment (FISA, of course, being a statute, not a constitutional provision, and the administration having stated publicly they do not target individuals on that basis). Therefore, says Her Honor, the TSP is unconstitutional.

Such trivial (if not incomprehensible) legal analysis would be unacceptable in our $50 plumbing-bill case. Using it to justify shutting down a program protecting us from terrorist attack in war is tantamount to an abrogation of the judge’s oath to support and defend the Constitution. Though unlikely based on what has been publicly reported, it is possible that a court armed with all the facts could conclude that the TSP runs afoul of the First or Fourth Amendments. It is not possible to decide that based on press reports and platitudes.

Amateur hour? Judge Taylor, a law professor, has been on the bench since 1979. She is decidedly not an amateur. So, how to explain her first-year failing-grade opinion? Regrettably, the only plausible explanation is that she wanted the result she wanted and was willing to ignore and misread vast portions of constitutional law to get there, gambling the lives and security of her fellow Americans in the bargain.

Whatever Judge Taylor’s motives, it is critical to understand the impact of her decision, were it allowed to stand. Among many damaging results, the Terrorist Surveillance Program, publicly credited not 72 hours ago with helping to prevent the “9/11 Part 2” British airline bombings, will be shut down and our enemies will know it. Worse, neither politically accountable branch of government (even working together) would be able to modify FISA in a way that did not require prior judicial warrants based on probable cause and particularity as to the person targeted. In other words, there would be no lawful way, short of amending the Constitution, to ever collect catastrophic-terrorist-attack warning information unless we knew in advance it was coming, and the identities of the precise individuals who were going to communicate it.

As Judge Taylor’s new favorite justice, Robert Jackson himself, warned, the courts should not “convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact.” I will put my daughters to bed tonight confident that the Court of Appeals and our Supreme Court will not allow Judge Taylor’s giant step in that direction to stand.

— Bryan Cunningham served in senior positions in the CIA and as a federal prosecutor under President Clinton, and as deputy legal adviser to the National Security Council under President George W. Bush. He is a private information security and privacy lawyer at Morgan & Cunningham LLC in Denver, Colorado, and a member of the Markle Foundation Task Force on National Security in the Information Age. Along with the Washington Legal Foundation, he filed an amicus brief in this case, and has testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee on the Terrorist Surveillance Program.

http://news.lawreader.com/?p=294



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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2008, 10:39:37 PM »
Hahaha, monster cut and paste by a dumbass who never read Jackson's opinion.  If you had, you would realize that Jackson's opinion supports Judge Taylor's opinion far more than it does your dilettante's rambling article.

War powers do not supersede representative government when it comes to internal affairs/inhabitants of the US. 

I'm paraphrasing b/c I'm too lazy to google, but ron can delete my account if i misspeak.

And it's significant that he said inhabitants .... even non-citizens who live in the US are entitled to some process under the constitution. A man of Jackson's intellect did not use words lightly.

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2008, 01:50:39 AM »
...just like the other day when in response to JBGray's post about how the high cost of fuel was affecting every day prices of goods & services, I mentioned in passing the heavy toll current economic conditions were having on long haul truckers forcing them out of business and off the road

...

I disagree.  The issues I mentioned are hardly mundane.  We have 18 state departments here dealing with everything from transportation, to crime, to education, labor, budget and finance, agriculture, business, etc.  Essentially everything that impacts our day-to-day living.  There are county equivalents for many of these departments. 

This is where most of the rubber meets the road.   

Like I said before:

It doesn't matter where the rubber meets the road if you can't afford the fuel, ...the vehicle isn't going anywhere.

I, along with many of my colleagues are trying to discourage a strike, but we can't get the word out fast enough that a strike is not the correct course of action to take. We don't know if we have enough momentum to avert it. Some of my guys are currently at the Louisville Truck show trying to convince as many drivers as possible NOT to strike, ...cause that will only hurt them, and the everyday consumer. Without these guys, American shuts down. We don't know if we can avoid it, so my best advice to everyone is to stock up. Get what you can, because there might be a bit of a temporary shortage of some things, ...and we all know what happens to prices when supply is tight

Truckers Discuss Possible Strike Over Fuel Prices
By Terry Jessup

Mar 25, 2008 6:39 pm US/Mountain



DENVER (CBS4) ― Diesel prices are climbing higher and higher and truckers say it's getting too expensive to stay in business. Now, there is talk of a strike to grab people's attention.

Truckers are threatening to shut down the shipping industry in hopes of forcing some relief at the pumps. The price of diesel fuel soared this week to a record $4.06 a gallon. That's a .27 cent jump in just two weeks.

Diesel prices are not as bad in Colorado as in a lot of other states, especially California. In a solidarity protest, several truckers shut down their rigs Monday in Pennsylvania, and truckers in Colorado are predicting more of that to come. Across the country, more and more truckers are calling for a nationwide strike on April 1.

"We stay out three days to a week, I think maybe people will start listening to us, because without our trucks, America stops," Texas truck driver Pat Dreher said. "That's just the way it is."

"It would only take one day for us for people to understand what effect these drivers would have," Kentucky truck driver Jennifer Kloc said. "Everything comes on a truck."

Diesel fuel is already at or over $4 a gallon in at least 17 states. In many places, it's gone up .50 to .70 cents in the past month. One driver at a Colorado truck stop said it costs him about $1,000 to fill up from empty.

In a visit to Denver Tuesday afternoon, Transportation Secretary Mary Peters said the American Trucking Association is asking Washington for relief, but said a strike by truckers certainly won't bring it.

"I don't think it would be a very good thing for our country at all, and if the strike is because of high fuel prices, I think that would be taking an action that would affect American businesses and American consumers for something that they don't have a direct relationship to," Peters said.

But if there is no relief, many truckers say they might as well strike, because they won't be able to afford to keep driving. Along with the jacked up diesel, the average owner-operator is paying $600 to $800 a month just for insurance.

As for company drivers, one told CBS4 that if he does keep driving his rig, he won't have money to drive anything else.

"We can't live the way we used to the way gas prices are right now," Texas truck driver Kenyon Mulli said. "When I get home, I have a GMC 2500. I don't go anywhere, I just stay at home."

Several truckers were quick to concede a strike would probably not have any impact on oil companies lowering their fuel prices. Some said they could get some relief if the federal and state governments could temporarily suspend fuel taxes until the economy improves, but they realize that's not likely to happen either. When Peters was asked about it, she said she hasn't heard any calls for fuel tax suspension.

Peters was in Denver to promote a pilot program permitting U.S. truckers to deliver goods directly into Mexico. She said efforts in Washington to end the program would hurt Colorado's farmers and ranchers by delaying their deliveries.

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To see video, please visit: http://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=40206@kcnc.dayport.com


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Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2008, 07:45:52 AM »
It sounds like you're confusing his disagreement with the court ruling with a stated intent to disobey the court ruling.  He said the court was wrong.  I haven't read anywhere where he said (as you claim) the administration "would continue to do what it was doing."
The Court holding pointed out that Bush was breaking the law since he authorized the spying.

The legality of Bush's act is governed by the law he broke...not the subsequent court holding.

2 years of felonious domestic spying by our government and you see no problem?

Your point re Bush's behavior after the decision is an irrelevant red herring.

Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2008, 07:49:39 AM »
Yes, this is classic spin.  I'm not going to defend what he did, because I don't agree with warrantless wiretaps, but he apparently believed that law didn't apply to their activities.  So to say he "knowingly" broke the law is in fact nothing more than your opinion.  The system did exactly what it was supposed to do. 

And at the end of the day, wasn't the judge overruled anyway? 
Sorry, that's not how it works. 

By your own admission, Bush knew of FISA's legal restrictions but decided they didn't apply to him.

That's a classic example of knowledge of one's wrongdoing.  It's also a classic exercise of dictatorial power.

As I've said, he knowingly broke the law.

Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2008, 08:01:42 AM »
You know what the man was thinking eh?  Jedi mind trick?   :)  So I spent a minute (if that long) looking on the internet and lo and behold I found someone who doesn't think this is black and white.  How ridiculous is that?  (Keep in mind this goes to whether Bush believed he was violating the law, not whether I believe his actions were appropriate.)

Former CIA agent belittles Judge Diggs decision.

By Bryan Cunningham

...


No Jedi mind trick.  Bush admitted to the country that he knew of FISA's restrictions.  That's no trick.  That's called evidence of knowledge of a guilty mind....mens rea.

Maybe Bush should hire Bryan Cunningham as a legal rep. since he knows so much about FISA, our constitutional rights, case law and the court decision. 

I'll stick with the experts, thank you.

The American Bar Association denounced President Bush's warrantless domestic surveillance program yesterday, accusing him of exceeding his powers under the Constitution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/13/AR2006021302006.html

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/spying/fisa.html


Decker

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Re: How does the presidency affect you personally?
« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2008, 08:06:02 AM »
...

War powers do not supersede representative government when it comes to internal affairs/inhabitants of the US. 

...And it's significant that he said inhabitants .... even non-citizens who live in the US are entitled to some process under the constitution. A man of Jackson's intellect did not use words lightly.
I agree.