Is God Cruel?

[OzmO]

Who is arguing?  Deedee made her comment and I asked her a question about it.  Let's wait for her answer.

So you do you or do not agree?

Deedee said that Israel had "good reasons" for killing the children of their enemies because back then "they" considered those good reasons and that was a tribal mentality back then

Argument in the non-negative way.   

[OzmO]

Recent years, huh?  No, good thing you weren't an unfortunate Russian as recent as 1937 -1938, or an unfortunate Chinese in 1958 - 1960, or an unfortunate Cambodian in 1975 -1979.

So true, but in the 1600's and back, just about the whole world was still quite barbaric.

[loco]

So you do you or do not agree?

Argument in the non-negative way.   

Uh?  

[loco]

So true, but in the 1600's and back, just about the whole world was still quite barbaric.

Did you see the stats I just posted?  Looks to me like the world is still quite barbaric.

[Deedee]

Interesting "theory".  Does Bible say anything about evil/weak bloodlines?  Does the Bible not say that we are all one blood, one human race, all created in God's image?

Holey moley Loco, haven't you had any religious instruction? Maybe I had too much!!! 

You seem to vacillate between God having dictated the whole OT, and the notion that some of it is just history.  Take your pick.

1. God created a covenant with certain tribes and wanted to ensure that the bloodlines remained intact.
2. The elders wanted to conquer other peoples and used God as an excuse to rouse their warriors. 

Starting from the viewpoint that God created a covenant designed to keep bloodlines of his beloved tribes intact:

1 When the Lord thy God shall have brought thee into the land, which thou art going in to possess, and shall have destroyed many nations before thee, the Hethite, and the Gergezite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, and the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, seven nations much more numerous than thou art, and stronger than thou: 2 And the Lord thy God shall have delivered them to thee, thou shalt utterly destroy them. Thou shalt make no league with them, nor show mercy to them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them. Thou shalt not give thy daughter to his son, nor take his daughter for thy son: 4 For she will turn away thy son from following me, that he may rather serve strange gods, and the wrath of the Lord will be kindled, and will quickly destroy thee. 5 But thus rather shall you deal with them: Destroy their altars, and break their statues, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven things. 6 Because thou art a holy people to the Lord thy God. The Lord thy God hath chosen thee, to be his peculiar people of all peoples that are upon the earth. 7 Not because you surpass all nations in number, is the Lord joined unto you, and hath chosen you, for you are the fewest of any people: 8 But because the Lord hath loved you, and hath kept his oath, which he swore to your fathers: and hath brought you out with a strong hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, out of the hand of Pharao the king of Egypt. 9 And thou shalt know that the Lord thy God, he is a strong and faithful God, keeping his covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments, unto a thousand generations: 10 And repaying forthwith them that hate him, so as to destroy them, without further delay immediately rendering to them what they deserve. 11 Keep therefore the precepts and ceremonies and judgments, which I command thee this day to do.

Also, have you never read Judges... the story of the gangbanged dead concubine who was chopped into pieces, of which one was sent to each of the other tribes?  The ensuing war and the whole hooplah required so that new women could be obtained to replenish the vanquished tribe without breaking a covenant?

There are also many, many references to maintaining purity in the OT.

[Deedee]

By the way, that whole hooplah required kidnapping women. 

[OzmO]

Did you see the stats I just posted?  Looks to me like the world is still quite barbaric.

Oh yeah, there are places it is, but there are far more places now it isn't barbaric as compared to just 100 years ago.

Uh?   

I'm just saying that, me saying you are arguing, is not in the context of a "heat argument"  but rather a point of disagreement.

[loco]

Holey moley Loco, haven't you had any religious instruction? Maybe I had too much!!! 

Holey moley, Deedee, talk about condescending and arrogant!  You are better than that, Deedee.

You seem to vacillate between God having dictated the whole OT, and the notion that some of it is just history.  Take your pick.

What?     How so?

1. God created a covenant with certain tribes and wanted to ensure that the bloodlines remained intact.
2. The elders wanted to conquer other peoples and used God as an excuse to rouse their warriors. 

Starting from the viewpoint that God created a covenant designed to keep bloodlines of his beloved tribes intact:

1 When the Lord thy God shall have brought thee into the land, which thou art going in to possess, and shall have destroyed many nations before thee, the Hethite, and the Gergezite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, and the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, seven nations much more numerous than thou art, and stronger than thou: 2 And the Lord thy God shall have delivered them to thee, thou shalt utterly destroy them. Thou shalt make no league with them, nor show mercy to them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them. Thou shalt not give thy daughter to his son, nor take his daughter for thy son: 4 For she will turn away thy son from following me, that he may rather serve strange gods, and the wrath of the Lord will be kindled, and will quickly destroy thee. 5 But thus rather shall you deal with them: Destroy their altars, and break their statues, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven things. 6 Because thou art a holy people to the Lord thy God. The Lord thy God hath chosen thee, to be his peculiar people of all peoples that are upon the earth. 7 Not because you surpass all nations in number, is the Lord joined unto you, and hath chosen you, for you are the fewest of any people: 8 But because the Lord hath loved you, and hath kept his oath, which he swore to your fathers: and hath brought you out with a strong hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, out of the hand of Pharao the king of Egypt. 9 And thou shalt know that the Lord thy God, he is a strong and faithful God, keeping his covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments, unto a thousand generations: 10 And repaying forthwith them that hate him, so as to destroy them, without further delay immediately rendering to them what they deserve. 11 Keep therefore the precepts and ceremonies and judgments, which I command thee this day to do.

What does this have to do with your post about "blood lines"?  Foreigners were allowed to join Israel, to be circumcised and to marry Israeli women. 

As for the passage above, it has nothing to do with "blood line".  Read it again.  The reason is right there:

"Thou shalt make no league with them, nor show mercy to them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them. Thou shalt not give thy daughter to his son, nor take his daughter for thy son: 4 For she will turn away thy son from following me, that he may rather serve strange gods"

That's why, and not because they had evil/weak blood like you said. 

Also, right there in the passage you posted:

"The Lord thy God hath chosen thee, to be his peculiar people of all peoples that are upon the earth. 7 Not because you surpass all nations in number, is the Lord joined unto you, and hath chosen you, for you are the fewest of any people"

So it clearly says that Israel was not superior in any way to their enemies, or that Israel had good/strong blood and their enemies did not.

Also:

Deuteronomy 9:5
It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So there you go, it is not because Israel had a superior blood line or because of their righteousness.  It was not because their enemies had an inferior blood line, but because of their wickedness.

Also, have you never read Judges... the story of the gangbanged dead concubine who was chopped into pieces, of which one was sent to each of the other tribes?  The ensuing war and the whole hooplah required so that new women could be obtained to replenish the vanquished tribe without breaking a covenant?

There are also many, many references to maintaining purity in the OT.

Yes, I've read the whole Bible, and read and study it daily, but I don't have it memorized and I'm not a Bible scholar like my father.

You did not answer my questions:

Interesting "theory".  Does Bible say anything about evil/weak bloodlines?  Does the Bible not say that we are all one blood, one human race, all created in God's image?

[Deedee]

Um... when I said evil/weak I meant intermingling with those who would turn them away from their faith. The "weak" idol worshippers. Exactly as you bolded. I thought it was clear.

Sorry if I sounded arrogant.  Didn't mean to at all!

Loco, either you believe the OT was completely dictated by God, in which case the seemingly, and may I stress SEEMINGLY, cruel acts were God-condoned, or ordered... or the OT wasn't completely dictated by God, and certain parts of it are simply a chronicle of their lives.  You seem to believe that the portions related to atrocities or barbaric acts are simply the added notations of man.  If I'm wrong, then again, I apologize. But which is it then? It makes it easier to have a discussion.

[Deedee]

Interesting "theory".  Does Bible say anything about evil/weak bloodlines?  Does the Bible not say that we are all one blood, one human race, all created in God's image?

  Apparently God did make distinctions. See the quote above again which you yourself bolded. This is getting confusing. You're cherry picking.

Have you read Judges? There were strict rules for tribal intermingling.

"And the people had compassion on Benjamin because The Lord had made a breach in the tribes of Israel. Then the elders of the congregation said, "What shall we do for wives for those who are left, since the women are destroyed out of Benjamin?" And they said, "There must be an inheritance for the survivors of Benjamin, that a tribe be not blotted out from Israel. Yet we cannot give them wives of our daughters." For the people of Israel had sworn, "Cursed be he who gives a wife to Benjamin." So they said, "Behold, there is the yearly feast of The Lord at Shiloh, which is north of Bethel, on the east of the highway that goes up from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah."

And they commanded the Benjaminites, saying, "Go and lie in wait in the vineyards, and watch; if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in the dances, then come out of the vineyards and seize each man his wife from the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin. And when their fathers or their brothers come to complain to us, we will say to them, 'Grant them graciously to us; because we did not take for each man of them his wife in battle, neither did you give them to them, else you would now be guilty.'"

And the Benjaminites did so, and took their wives, according to their number, from the dancers whom they carried off; then they went and returned to their inheritance, and rebuilt the towns, and dwelt in them.

[OzmO]

Holey moley, Deedee, talk about condescending and arrogant!  You are better than that, Deedee.

How is DeeDee being condescending and arrogant if she puts a smiley face after:

Holey moley Loco, haven't you had any religious instruction? Maybe I had too much!!!   

[Deicide]

You highlight "It has nothing to do with believing or not believing in the OT." in my post, tell me that I am correct, then say the OT should be flushed down the toilet?   

I highlighted it because as a guide for morality and life, the OT is horrible. It is babaric, cruel, tyrannical and just plain antiquated; old Yahweh the angry is a very uncool deity. I prefer Dagda or Thor. As mythology, pseudo-history and a work of literature the OT is ok. If someone wants to use it as a guide to living (as in killing children who talk back to you or beating them with rods), then yes, it should be thrown into a pile of sewer filth as in this regard it truly belongs there.

[MCWAY]

I highlighted it because as a guide for morality and life, the OT is horrible. It is babaric, cruel, tyrannical and just plain antiquated; old Yahweh the angry is a very uncool deity. I prefer Dagda or Thor. As mythology, pseudo-history and a work of literature the OT is ok. If someone wants to use it as a guide to living (as in killing children who talk back to you or beating them with rods), then yes, it should be thrown into a pile of sewer filth as in this regard it truly belongs there.

And this verse about killing children who talk back to you would be located where?

[Deicide]

And this verse about killing children who talk back to you would be located where?

"Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

So in Proverbs Yahweh tells us to beat children to save their souls, but not kill them (very nice of him).

But then Yahweh changes his mind...

Illustrated just for you MCWAY...







 Deuteronomy 21:21
'All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'

[MCWAY]

"Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

So in Proverbs Yahweh tells us to beat children to save their souls, but not kill them (very nice of him).

In other words, spank them, take them to the woodshed, etc. We call that corporal punishment.

But then Yahweh changes his mind...

Illustrated just for you MCWAY...
 Deuteronomy 21:21
'All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'

The LEGO thing was cute. Unfortunately, this one is just as accurate as your blurb about iron chariots, as it appears you did not consider the context of this verse.

Here's the full passage on this matter, starting from verse 18.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them. Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.



The passage reads, "if a man has a stubborn and rebellious son". NOWHERE does it indicate that the son in question is a child.

In fact, the later verses describes the son as a glutton and a drunkard, terms used for ADULT misconduct. It appears that you're forgetting that men stayed with their parents, until they married, and then got a place of their own. Hence, we have the verses, For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife Prime examples are the patriarchs of the Jewish people: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all of whom stayed with their parents as ADULTS.

The point is that this is for serious grievances. It has NOTHING to do with stoning little Obadiah for not eating all his manna or leaving his G.I. Jehosephat action figures all over the floor.

So, once again, where's the part about killing children?

[OzmO]

lol

nice touch with the legos   

[Butterbean]

Prime examples are the patriarchs of the Jewish people: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all of whom stayed with their parents as ADULTS.

Living with our parents as adults until marriage!?  More barbarism of the Old Testament!!







 

[OzmO]

Living with our parents as adults until marriage!?  More barbarism of the Old Testament!!







 

That just brings about some bad assumptions to today's age....

[Deedee]

Sounds like a quaint custom for dealing with 16-year-old unmarriageable bad boys. Whatever happened to it?

[Deedee]

How is DeeDee being condescending and arrogant if she puts a smiley face after:

I was mostly laughing at myself.   

But I can see where maybe loco would get offended.

[OzmO]

I was mostly laughing at myself.   

But I can see where maybe loco would get offended.

That's how i took it.....  I wouldn't get offended at all on a statement like that, but that's the issue with a spoken word versus the written word.

[MCWAY]

Sounds like a quaint custom for dealing with 16-year-old unmarriageable bad boys. Whatever happened to it?

All 16-years old were "unmarriageable" back then, as the legal age for male adulthood was 20. Again, this was about serious misconduct that brought shame, dishonor, and (in some cases) disease and death to families.

If little Obadiah talked back to his parents, he likely got a healthy dose of the rod to his behind.

[Hedgehog]

All 16-years old were "unmarriageable" back then, as the legal age for male adulthood was 20. Again, this was about serious misconduct that brought shame, dishonor, and (in some cases) disease and death to families.

If little Obadiah talked back to his parents, he likely got a healthy dose of the rod to his behind.

I've heard the saying that Stalin killed more people in one year than the Crusaders did in a decade. Bascially, that amount to the "god" in question being the state/government. And since he ran the state/government, the "god" was, in effect, Stalin himself.

What does Stalin has to do with people being murdered in the name of God?

Are you, in some perverted way, trying to justifying one horrible act by another evil crime?

Then perhaps Hitler was justified.

Some say he didn't kill as many as Stalin either.

Or Saddam.

Or Pol Pot.

Or who-fcuking-ever.

[MCWAY]

What does Stalin has to do with people being murdered in the name of God?

It has to do with agreeing with Loco's point: that people have had such things happen, regardless of whether "the name of God" has been used or not.

Are you, in some perverted way, trying to justifying one horrible act by another evil crime?

First of all, who's defining "good and evil" here?

If that someone is God, then (as the Creator of life) He has the right to do what He wants with His creation. And, if He decides that time's up for a certain group of people (i.e. the Amalekites for their persecuting Israel, among others, for over 300 years), then the Amalekites are as good as gone, period.

[MCWAY]

That's the one of the issues stella, how is anyone to know if God truly tells anyone?

I bet the percentage of people who think god has spoken to them at some point in there lives is higher than we think. 

I believe he's spoken to me on 2 occasions. 

Take the Jews who were instructed by God to kill children.  How do we know they actually were told by god? 

I don't believe they were told by God becuase killing innocent children is an evil thing to do and god is not evil. (making it more than obviously the OT is not the 100% WOG, therefore God did not commit an evil act)

But yet, nations will act on what someone, who they believe is the voice of God, says to do.

Hasn't Bush even said something to the effect  he's been guided by God or talks to him or something?

Thiis s the kind of thing that leads to righteousness.  Isn't righteous something Jesus warns us about? 

Sure we do.  Because we are at the very least a modern civilization.  But at the religious core we are not becuase many still believe the OT is the 100% WOG and see no moral inequity or accountability on God's part for killing children.  Our religious roots are planted, as DeeDee said, in a time of complete barbarism.  that gives us the potential to fall into the same "almost" the same level of righteousness that caused grown men to kill innocent children because they believe who ever ordered them to was told by God to do it.

Accountability to WHOM, Ozmo? Who exactly is going to hold God accountable for doing His will with HIS creation?

We discussed this a while back, specifically as it relates to the Amalekites. The order was that, due to Amalek's constantly terrorizing Israel (among others) for over three centuries. The whole issue with Saul came, not because he had a problem destroying the enemies of Israel, but because he was greedy and wanted to keep the spoils of war, despite strict orders to spare no one and nothing.

It's as Samuel told the Amalekite king: Since Agag's sword made women childless, so his mother (and by extension, those of his people) would be made childless. They had three centuries to straighten up, fly right, and make amends. They did not but got worse. Therefore, it's judgment time. And the evil of Amalek's king cursed his entire people, not just him or his family.

Again, I refer you to World War II. When the A-bomb dropped on Hiroshima, it didn't single out the male members of the Japanese military. Anyone and everyone within range of the A-bomb met their end. Japan had the opportunity to cease fire and atone for Pearl Harbor. But, it didn't.....you know the rest.

As for your other question, Jesus did warn about righteousness. He also said, "Vengeance is Mine; I'll will repay" or make recompense. In other words, He will decide when and how judgment and justice will be metted to those who break His laws and oppress His people. And in Amalek's case, it was death via the sword of Saul. Unfortunately Saul, in his pride and greed, didn't heed God's full instruction, resulting in a curse on himself, his family, and later on Israel.