Author Topic: Debunking the Dominance Myth  (Read 5271 times)

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Debunking the Dominance Myth
« on: April 11, 2008, 08:19:19 AM »
Debunking the Dominance Myth

Are dogs lying awake at night plotting a coup?

By Carmen Buitrago, CPDT, CTC

Have you ever wondered if your dog is dominant? Chances are you have, if only because over  the last half century, every canine misbehavior from house soiling to door dashing has been  deemed a "dominance" problem.
Your dog growls at visitors? Dominance, say well-meaning friends. He doesn't always come when called? He's telling you he's boss, according to popular dog books. She pulls on leash or jumps up to greet you? She's declaring alpha status. He prefers couches to floors? Watch out!

Perhaps the most unlikely behaviors heard attributed to dominance are coprophagia (stool eating) and fetching a ball.

How did dominance become one of the most popular and unthinking labels ever bandied about in dog circles?

A catchy concept
The concept of dominance - or "alpha," meaning the highest ranked individual - originally came from some studies of wolf packs in the 1940s. The concept was catchy, and when it trickled down to popular dog culture, it took hold with the power of mythology. It quickly became "common knowledge" that domestic dogs are naturally dominant or will become so if their people tolerate certain behaviors. These dogs, it was claimed, will constantly challenge and test their owners until they are forcefully shown human leadership.

So-called dominance exercises were - and in some circles still are - widely recommended to prevent the dog from taking over the entire household. These exercises include not feeding him until after you've eaten, letting him through doorways only after you, forbidding access to furniture, and not playing tug-of-war.

In reality, there is no evidence that these procedures prevent dominance aggression or any other behavioral problem. In fact, one study found no correlation between playing tug-of-war or allowing a dog on the bed and the development of aggressive behavior.

Extreme treatment
Beyond those exercises, many authors and trainers urged owners to hold or force their dogs into submissive positions, sometimes roughly, to the point of creating fearful responses. Today, some call these "gentling" exercises and recommend using them with puppies.

For example, you roll or flip your puppy on her back, and don't let her up until she stops resisting. The claim is beguilingly simple: by forcing a dog to assume a submissive posture and then rewarding her for tolerating it, you teach her to submit to your leadership.

But notice the claim's unspoken assumption that leadership is gained through force. In canine society, leadership is not won through brute physical domination. And a wide range of dogs with normal, sociable temperaments naturally will resist being forced on their backs, even to the point of defensive aggression.

Humans are not that different. Think how you would react if your boss established his or her "leadership" by physical force!

The technique has morphed further into a facile test of dominance. Force a dog on his back, and if he resists, he's dominant! Instant (albeit wrong) diagnoses have wide appeal in homes, animal shelters, obedience schools, and even veterinary clinics.

Some so-called experts even suggest using violent techniques like scruff shakes and alpha rolls. At the extreme end, some trainers once advocated downright abusive methods, such as hanging a dog by a choke chain and leash (called helicoptering) until she passed out, or forcing her head underwater until she lost consciousness.

These tactics were considered treatment for behaviors as mild as digging or as serious as aggression.


Flaws of the wolf-pack studies
Unfortunately, our collective preoccupation with doggy dominance hasn't served us or our dogs well. To begin with, it's based on some outdated and flawed science as well as a fair amount of nonsense.

Dr. Ian Dunbar outlines three major flaws of the studies of wolf packs in the 1930s and 1940s. First, they were short-term and focused on the most obvious facet of wolf life, namely hunting. As a result, the studies gathered unrepresentative data and drew rather sweeping conclusions about wolf behavior (and later, dog behavior) based on about 1% of wolf life.

Second, the researchers observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. The bulk of dominance mythology comes from these misinterpretations.

Take alpha rolls. The early researchers thought that the higher-ranking wolf forcibly rolled subordinate wolves to exert his dominance. Modern studies have shown that alpha rolls are part of an appeasement ritual offered voluntarily by the subordinate wolf, not forced by the superior.

A subordinate wolf offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the subordinate rolls over and presents his belly. There is no force. Canine behaviorist Jean Donaldson, author of the award-winning book The Culture Clash, says, "The truth is, there is not one documented case of a wolf forcefully rolling another wolf to the ground. Nor is there one case of a mother wolf (or dog) 'scruff-shaking' her puppies."
A wolf would flip another wolf against its will only if he were planning to kill it. The same goes for a mother shaking her pup by the scruff. Both are rare events.

The third flaw was that the researchers made some wild extrapolations from their data. Their first leap of logic was applying their conclusions to dogs. Their second was applying them to human-canine interactions.

Dogs aren't watered-down wolves
The fact is, dogs aren't wolves. Wolves are dogs' closest relatives - just as chimpanzees are ours - but dogs became a separate species possibly as long as 135,000 years ago. Although dogs retain some characteristics of wolves and other canids, thousands of years of domestication, co-evolution with humans, and selective breeding have changed them profoundly.

Dunbar once said, "Saying 'I want to interact with my dog better, so I'll learn from the wolves' makes about as much sense as saying 'I want to improve my parenting - let's see how the chimps do it."

Applying the wolf studies to human-canine interactions was nonsense, according to Dunbar. Despite the flimsy evidence, books and methods abounded, exhorting owners to be "leader of the pack." They portrayed an adversarial human-canine relationship and advocated combative training methods that relied on force, punishment, and even pain. After all, force was thought to be necessary to put ambitious dogs in their place.
In her book Dog Friendly Dog Training, Andrea Arden writes, "Rather than teaching our best friends, we were advised to physically dominate our dog to bring him into line."

In stark contrast to the popular myth of wolves (and dogs) ruling with an iron paw, however, wolves' and dogs' social structure is much more complex, flexible, and subtle.

Benevolent leadership
Based on better and longer studies of canines, scientists have learned that the mark of a true leader is the ability to control without force, according to Dr. Myrna Milani, a veterinarian and behaviorist. She points out that, in the wild, animals who rule with brute force get eliminated from the gene pool, because force requires so much energy and puts the animals at high risk of death, injury, or predation.

Instead, the vast majority of alpha dogs lead benevolently. They do not stoop to physical domination to prove their points. They don't need to. They lead through subtle psychological control, such as confident posture, withering glances, staring, stalking, dogging (persistently hassling), barking, or growling.

It's all ritualistic. Day-to-day interactions are based largely on deferential and cooperative behaviors, and conflicts are settled by elaborate displays designed to inhibit aggression or turn off threats.

So despite popular myth, alpha does not mean physically dominant or most aggressive. It means in control of resources. A leader is one who has earned the right to control whatever resources he or she thinks are important. What's important is flexible. It changes depending on the dog's motivation, the context, and the situation at the moment. So an alpha dog might give up a prime sleeping place because he couldn't care less, or relinquish a succulent bone because she's lost interest.

Maintaining order through submission
Another assumption of pack theory was that wolves, and therefore dogs, organized themselves in a fixed, linear dominance hierarchy - a chicken-like pecking order in which the dominant animals maintain order by threatening and intimidating underlings.

Now experts agree that wolves form an appeasement (also called subordinance) hierarchy, in which subordinate animals maintain order through active displays of submission and deference.

Donaldson offers the Army as a human analogy. Lower-ranking soldiers first salute their superiors with a flourish and then get a cursory salute in return. This is a classic appeasement hierarchy. A general doesn't enter a room and throw his weight around. He simply appears and everyone starts saluting.

But going beyond observations of wolf behavior, modern researchers have studied the behavior of village, feral, and companion dogs to understand canine social structures better.

These scientists observed loose social structures that were flexible and unpredictable. The structures observed were determined more by factors like food availability and human intervention than by any innate sense of social hierarchy. These same experts now emphasize the importance of treating the domestic dog as the distinct species it is, not as a sort of watered-down wolf.

Problems with the dominance label
Another main flaw of dominance theory is the term itself. A cornerstone of science is precise, unambiguous definitions that facilitate communication. Ethological terms like dominance are not precise definitions but are constructs used to label and summarize a range of behaviors. One problem with constructs, psychologists Drs. Garry Martin and Joseph Pear point out, is that they lead to circular reasoning.

For example, a dog that growls when approached near her food bowl might be labeled dominant. Then if you ask the owner why the dog growls, she'll answer, "Because she's dominant." So the label becomes a pseudoexplanation for the behavior.
The label also can affect the way the animal is treated. The dominance label has been used to justify punishing dogs, especially those that react defensively to force-based training methods. The label also tends to focus attention on problem behaviors rather than on teaching and rewarding good ones.

A related term, dominance aggression, is similarly problematic. What does it mean? There's no scientific consensus on how to define it academically, much less on how to identify it in the real world.

In Pet Behavior Protocols, Dr. Suzanne Hetts, an applied animal behaviorist, writes, "Sometimes it's very difficult to categorize aggression more specifically than offensive or defensive. The behavioral descriptions of when aggression occurs and the associated body postures often don't fit well into any of the classification schemes in the scientific literature on aggression. In addition, dogs may display more than one type of aggression, which contributes to the difficulty in categorization."

If behavior as obvious as aggression is so difficult to categorize, how accurate can it be to label subtle, everyday behavior as "dominant"? It's a judgment that presumes to understand dogs' motives when, in fact, we have no idea what they're thinking. There are dozens of possible causes, functions, or motives for any problem behavior.

Moving past the label
In many aggression cases, the history and description of the dogs' behavior are inconsistent with our traditional understanding of dominance. So-called dominant dogs often show ambivalent, fearful, and anxious body language. They may shake and act very submissively during and after a bite. Studies show that dogs displaying "dominance aggression" get less exercise, are more fearful of people, are more excitable, and react more to high-pitched noises. All this is inconsistent with our notion of the fearless, dominant dog and suggests other factors at play in aggressive behavior.

This new information challenges us to interpret the social relationship between dogs and owners in a more sophisticated way than as simple dominant-submissive relationships.

Fortunately, behavioral science and most dog trainers have moved past the flawed dominance label. A new term being used for dominance aggression is status-related aggression. Treatment focuses on teaching and rewarding the dog for desired behaviors, regardless of status. It also seeks to identify the many other possible causes of problem behaviors, such as fear or anxiety, insufficient socialization, boredom, lack of exercise, too little companionship, or lack of training.

Geo

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 06:17:09 PM »
 love ya like a red headed step sister but I ain't readin all that

~flower~

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2008, 06:28:57 AM »
love ya like a red headed step sister but I ain't readin all that

  figs can't read !

temper35

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2008, 07:11:36 PM »
That is one of the most poorly written, aimless articles I have ever read.  What is she even trying to say?  LOL.  It is just a bunch of facts/ideas/theories thrown out there, with no argument whatsoever.

Do some research on the woman who wrote that.  Her certifications mean nothing.  We should realize this considering knowing stuff about the personal training industry.  Studying for a test for a cert doesn't make you an expert.  She also has a bunch of reviews that she did on other peoples books on amazon.com, user submitted reviews.

Bad article, and it covers so many different topics and argues none of them, it is almost impossible to address.  Reading that article was like reading Gertrude Stein.

chaos

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2008, 08:29:12 PM »
Cliff notes ???
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

~flower~

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2008, 10:27:12 AM »
It's just saying that attributing everything to the dog trying to be dominant is ridiculous.

  The dog gets on the couch and some people think - Oh he will think he is dominant now!   He walks ahead of you - there dominance!!     Ut Oh!  Your schedule made it so the dog ate before,  you did, you just showed him he is dominant over you!! 


  I think the point was to get real people, and not act like their is a big fight for the top going on with your dog.  They aren't planning on taking over the house when you aren't looking.


   It is not saying that you should allow behaviors you don't find acceptable or have rules/limits, but the dominance theory that some people go overboard with has no basis to it and is being overly used.  Now if you don't want the dog on your couch because you don't want dog hair on it or just don't want pets on the furniture, then don't let the dog on the couch, but it should not be because you think he will "become dominant if you let him on the couch".   ::)

  temper - it wasn't meant to address or solve specific issues, just to show how some viewpoints are flawed and people should rethink some training techniques because they are based on faulty or missing logic.

  But you replied exactly as I expected you would.
  ;D



   
 

knny187

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2008, 10:43:44 AM »
I watch alot of Cesar Milan....(seriously)......(stop laughing)....

anyways....

One thing he says (which I believe 100%) is that dogs need....Rules, Boundaries, & Limitations.

But he also quickly points out (which nobody seems to remember) is that every household has Rules, Boundaries, & Limitations with all members that live under the roof.  Thats humans, animal, etc...

Also...If your dog wants to jump on the couch & thats a part of your Rules, Boundaries, & Limitations.....so be it.  As long as the dog doesn't eat the couch...right?  See, there you have set & established some RB&L.

When he goes over to someone's house...he doesn't tell the people "don't have the dog jump up there"...he asks them "Do you want them up there?"  If they say "yes...it's ok", Cesar will leave it alone.  If they say "No...it's been a real problem getting the dog to listen", then he steps in & helps try to show the people how to set up RB&L.

On a walk....one of the main reason's why he advocates the dog not getting ahead of the people is because the Dog is out of control to begin with.  He's trying to show people how to maintain Discipline.  Most of these people say 'I would just love to walk my dog without my arm being pulled out of the socket'.  If you notice....he allows his dogs "play time, run time, etc..".  Not always is the dog right by his side.  When he goes on Rollerblades, the dog is about 3-4 feet in front of him.  So it's not all about the dog being to the side, except, when you're trying to teach your dog obedience & discipline, which the majority on his show need.  Thats why they are picked to go on his show.

Now this may not have to do 100% about Cesar, but his philosophy id being a Pack Leader.

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2008, 10:53:43 AM »
Well said Knny, I have no idea why temper is so offended by that article, I knew he would be though. 

   Being the pack leader is not about dominating the animal, it is about guiding them in what is acceptable and what is not.    And every dog may need to be "guided" different.  Some may need lots of guidance, and others hardly any. Some a stronger guidance, and others lighter.   

temper35

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 11:23:30 AM »
Well said Knny, I have no idea why temper is so offended by that article, I knew he would be though. 

   Being the pack leader is not about dominating the animal, it is about guiding them in what is acceptable and what is not.    And every dog may need to be "guided" different.  Some may need lots of guidance, and others hardly any. Some a stronger guidance, and others lighter.   


I'm SOOOOOO offended, O M G.  The main reason of my post was to point out how poorly written that article was.

Knny's post is basically spot on, as most of the time they are.  I personally believe that all of the things the article tries to debunk, and alot of the stuff Cesar does, should be followed if you have a dominant breed just to protect yourself against POTENTIAL problems.  And hey, Knny owns a Rottie too.  What a coincidence  ;D 

The main reason you(flower the dog genius) posted that article is because you are one of those people the article mentions, and you enjoy reading shit like that because you finally found someone as wacky as you are to justify the way you raise your dogs....

o wait, they eat raw food.  They are wolves.  Sorry   ::)

~flower~

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2008, 12:11:51 PM »
you make no sense temper  ???


  what exactly was so wrong with that article? It wasn't a TRAINING article it was an article on people who go overboard on "dominating" their dog or feel that in every way shape and form they must be dominating or the dog is going to take over.

  Why don't you highlight some areas you feel are so wrong and refute them.

 Again that was NOT a training article, so stop posting like it was. 

 I believe Ceaser treats the problems the dog HAS, he doesn't try and enforce dominance in areas that are not a problem.  He works with the DOG not with what BREED the dog is. 

     Again, please refute parts of the article.

temper35

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 01:42:20 PM »
you make no sense temper  ???


  what exactly was so wrong with that article? It wasn't a TRAINING article it was an article on people who go overboard on "dominating" their dog or feel that in every way shape and form they must be dominating or the dog is going to take over.

  Why don't you highlight some areas you feel are so wrong and refute them.

 Again that was NOT a training article, so stop posting like it was. 

 I believe Ceaser treats the problems the dog HAS, he doesn't try and enforce dominance in areas that are not a problem.  He works with the DOG not with what BREED the dog is. 

     Again, please refute parts of the article.


How is this my red-headed friend.

The author of that article is a genius.
She has a beautifully organized argument.
Flower is also a genius.
Raw food is the best.
Vaccinations are the devil.


~flower~

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2008, 02:09:43 PM »
How is this my red-headed friend.

The author of that article is a genius.
She has a beautifully organized argument.
Flower is also a genius.
Raw food is the best.
Vaccinations are the devil.



 I'd say that proves you don't really have any fault with the article except that maybe it didn't really doesn't break any new grounds and from that point, yes, it was just a run of the mill article.

  Amusing attempt to back swim.   :)    Lame, and what you resort to instead of having a discussion with sentences that form a contribution to making a point.


    lmao!
  :D

 
 

knny187

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2008, 02:11:36 PM »
IMO dogs need to be dogs....& treated like a dog.

I believe if someone tries to 'over power' every thought, will, & movement of a dog...they will eventually drive the dog to an aggresive behaviour.

I don't believe Cesar does that at all.

I think this article in so many words supports my theory.


~flower~

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 02:23:44 PM »

knny, since me and temper both liked your other post, can you explain to me what his issue is since he refuses to?

 Or is it because I posted that so he has to find something wrong with and nothing is really wrong with it so he has to make what he considers snide remarks.

  Yeah, it hurts to know I am not feeding my dogs processed food.  If I could manage to gather some self esteem I would drive to the store and buy them some crap in a bag and redeem myself. 
  ::)

temper35

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 03:23:40 PM »
IMO dogs need to be dogs....& treated like a dog.

I believe if someone tries to 'over power' every thought, will, & movement of a dog...they will eventually drive the dog to an aggresive behaviour.

I don't believe Cesar does that at all.

I think this article in so many words supports my theory.



Cesar has rolled dogs, and believes its effective.  That article argues it isn't.  Most of the article is just a listing of well-known points that anyone who has a brain would know.  I don't know who she is referring to that thinks you are supposed to "dominate" your dog.

"These exercises include not feeding him until after you've eaten, letting him through doorways only after you, forbidding access to furniture, and not playing tug-of-war."

I do all of those, and have since Plato was a puppy, except the tug-of-war thing, which now I will do occasionally during a game of fetch.  He has no desire to jump on the couch or bed, he sits and stays whenever I put his food bowl down until I tell him okay, or if a piece of food falls on the floor( or even if I throw it in front of him).  He also always waits until I go through doors and then trots in after me.

All of these rules were established by simple little corrections as he was growing, such as "ah ah" when he does them.  They caught on, and stuck.  He is now calm, healthy, confident and OBEDIENT.  No destructive behavior when hes antsy, no aggression, no behavior problems...period. 

Doing all that may not work for everyone, or if you have a submissive little Dachsund or a Golden it may not be necessary, but as a Rottweiler owner I chose to follow things such as that in order to prevent any potential issues, and the finished product speaks for itself.  No dog was forced or beaten into submission or some shit that the author tries to make it seem is the public belief. 

They are just rules.

PS - Flower I break your balls because anything past food/health issues that you say I take with a grain of salt.  Stop crying or acting like I'm obsessed with you.  It is the internet.

knny187

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2008, 04:09:10 PM »
See where I agree & disagree with some of this is that no one usually talks about one word....."Respect".

A person, child, soldier, or DOG will not listen to you unless they respect you.  Respect is earned, not given.  Respect can not be earned by beating a dog.  First & foremost a dog has to trust you.  In that same regard, you need to respect the dogs "will" & know that physical harm is not going to make it listen to you.

I do place our dog on his side at times...but it's only when it's necessary to calm him down & to make him listen.  A calm submissive dog will listen to your needs better than an excited energy. 

Now if he was misbehaving & ripping stuff apart...I would not put him on his side & scold him in this manner.  Physical "presence" with little or no words will come across better than a physical smack or "dominance roll over".  He will know I am displeased just by my physical being.  If I have to physically apply myself...than that means I've lost all control.  He's won & got the best of me and most likely....will do it again in the future.

Again....a dog when he really respects you....will know when you're not happy with them.  Their goal #1 is to please you.  Thats what made the common dog a big fixture in the household is because of their loyalty.

I believe Flower & Temper see things (as hard as either one of you believe) the same point of views on a lot of matters.  Not ALL matters, but a lot of them.

I think Temper likes to push some buttons...but hey...I guess we all do.

You have to respect Flower for questioning how everyone does things or chooses to do things.  If not, there would never be progression in life because everyone would just be following what everyone else did in the past.  She just has the need to try & be the best responsible pet owner.  There's nothing wrong with that.  People do this all the time.  If I'm very mechanically gifted, I wouldn't roll over when I take my car in & the mechanic wants to perform thousands of dollars to my vehicle.  I would question why & do research on it instead of taking some persons word for it.

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2008, 04:09:42 PM »
If you actually read the article you'd see it was debunking the dominance myth as far as what some people believe you MUST do or your dog is considered dominating you.

  Like the myth that if you allow your dog on the couch it is dominating you.

  The myth that you should use the alpha role on your dog.  Cesar has used the alpha roll on a dog that it was needed, not every dog.  People shouldn't be doing that to their dogs just to prove they are the alpha, even he says that.

 You yourself have said don't feed the dog til you have eaten and don't let the dog go through the door before you.   Why not?  If the dog is knocking you over to get out the door then yes, that is a problem, but if you are both going outside and he just happens to be ahead of you then the dog isn't thinking he's the boss.  Nor if you feed him first does he go "I am king, I eat first".

   If you don't want the dog on the furniture, or never ahead of you, or never to eat before you, then that's a person's choice, but allowing them, or if they happen doesn't mean your dog is dominating you, THAT was the point of the article.   ::)   
 
  Those are YOUR RULES, not THE RULES THAT EVERYONE MUST USE.

 This article was just posted because I thought it had some things of interest in it.  Wasn't groundbreaking news, or a must read, just an article posted on the Pets Board.

 
  Post like you are trying to have an intelligent conversation if you have something to say. You are obsessed with me if this is the way you have any conversation with me.  And I knew if I posted it that I would get this response from you, I knew you wouldn't be able to have a discussion on it like an adult.  Too bad, because I take EVERYTHING you have to say with a grain of salt just for that reason, the difference is I won't make asshole posts just because you made a post. 

Geo

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2008, 04:19:15 PM »
knny..serious question


does a dog that respects you run away and ignore you when you tell it to come back ?

knny187

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2008, 04:57:36 PM »
knny..serious question


does a dog that respects you run away and ignore you when you tell it to come back ?

not when I have a hotdog in my hand

 ;D

Luv2Hurt

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2008, 06:40:30 PM »
Cesar has rolled dogs, and believes its effective.  That article argues it isn't.  Most of the article is just a listing of well-known points that anyone who has a brain would know.  I don't know who she is referring to that thinks you are supposed to "dominate" your dog.

"These exercises include not feeding him until after you've eaten, letting him through doorways only after you, forbidding access to furniture, and not playing tug-of-war."

I do all of those, and have since Plato was a puppy, except the tug-of-war thing, which now I will do occasionally during a game of fetch.  He has no desire to jump on the couch or bed, he sits and stays whenever I put his food bowl down until I tell him okay, or if a piece of food falls on the floor( or even if I throw it in front of him).  He also always waits until I go through doors and then trots in after me.

All of these rules were established by simple little corrections as he was growing, such as "ah ah" when he does them.  They caught on, and stuck.  He is now calm, healthy, confident and OBEDIENT.  No destructive behavior when hes antsy, no aggression, no behavior problems...period. 

Doing all that may not work for everyone, or if you have a submissive little Dachsund or a Golden it may not be necessary, but as a Rottweiler owner I chose to follow things such as that in order to prevent any potential issues, and the finished product speaks for itself.  No dog was forced or beaten into submission or some shit that the author tries to make it seem is the public belief. 

They are just rules.

PS - Flower I break your balls because anything past food/health issues that you say I take with a grain of salt.  Stop crying or acting like I'm obsessed with you.  It is the internet.

Yep and thats the way it should be.  Dogs are manupulative liitle bastards if they see you as weak, they will take advantage.  I see it all the time people giving into thier dogs demands cause they are to stupid to stand up to the dog, or they just dont get it, but they are being played by the dog.

They want it thier way as much as they can.  I never allowed my dog on the couch till he was like 2-3 years old and he was fine with it.  Well i started dating this girl who let her dog on the furniture (she let hers on her bed too, I will NEVER have that) well after some hesitation when at her house my dog would jump up on a couch too cause it was allowed there.  well after a while I let them do it at my house too, cause it was hard to be consistant with him at that point.  The bed no that is off limits and my dog never goes on it.

Not saying and neither was temper you need to be hard on your dog all the time, but you need to be consistant and treat them like dogs.  they like that anyhow.  I see so many people who are being run by thier dogs or children for that matter.  Whos gonna be the boss the dog, kids or you?

temper35

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2008, 10:42:10 PM »
knny..serious question


does a dog that respects you run away and ignore you when you tell it to come back ?

If that question was really serious, no.  Dogs should be happy to come to you and do so enthusiastically.

I have a feeling you were messing around tho =P

Vet

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 10:30:24 AM »
The problem with all of the "dominance" issues is that humans try to make a dog think like a human, they don't think like a dog.  As a result the fuck it all up big time. 

knny187

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 10:35:19 AM »
The problem with all of the "dominance" issues is that humans try to make a dog think like a human, they don't think like a dog.  As a result the fuck it all up big time. 

True.

A dog is a dog...period.

temper35

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2008, 12:07:52 PM »
The problem with all of the "dominance" issues is that humans try to make a dog think like a human, they don't think like a dog.  As a result the fuck it all up big time. 

Yeah, in Cesar's book there is a chapter that is called something like "How we screw up our dogs".

The dog isn't a child, it is a *dog*. 

Vet

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Re: Debunking the Dominance Myth
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2008, 03:23:30 PM »
Yeah, in Cesar's book there is a chapter that is called something like "How we screw up our dogs".

The dog isn't a child, it is a *dog*. 

In my experiences working at humane societies as a kennel aid, as an adoption counselor, as a veterinarian, working as a veterinarian, and working with rescues all over North America, the number one problem with most "problem" pets is the owners.   I know for a fact that some dogs will do much better--less aggression, less anxiety, better "manners"  if they could just get different owners.  Owners are the root of most evils in all pets in my opinion---not just dogs, but also birds and cats.   

Sometimes its an exercise on how long it'll take a person to fuck an animal up.