Vince Basile: You seem to harbour much bitterness towards Chick!

[Sharma]

I lose all respect for bodybuilding in 1997 when Nasser clearly won the Mr Olympia and they gave it to a guy with torn muscles and a disgusting, vomit inducing stomach and removed racist tattoos.

After that I still follow the sport but not respect like I did. The best physique did not and does not win.

[Meltdown]

Vince your passion won't go unnoticed when the media get wind of how it all works.Remember it only takes one man to make a change.

[New Hank Wood]

Good post Vince.  Written from the heart and makes a lot of sense.

[Moosejay]

I read ALL of your sentences, Vince.

[Voice of Doom]

Say that sh*t Vince!  A true brother of the iron

[Meltdown]

Vince are you going to keep us up to speed with your Progress in bringing some truth to Pro BB and get the IFBB to stand up and start Drug Testing all Pros for all Drugs.

[Chick]

Vince are you going to keep us up to speed with your Progress in bringing some truth to Pro BB and get the IFBB to stand up and start Drug Testing all Pros for all Drugs.

Progress??

Sure...I'll bring you up to speed...so far he's done two things...JACK AND SHIT.

Seriously...whats he going to do?

[Spoony Luv]

Vince...

Are the rumors true that you snort crushed up DBall off the fat rolls of 500 pound women?

[Meltdown]

As Vince is a former BB champion the media will listen to him Esp when he spills the beans on Pro BB and how it's the only sport on the planet that actually pays it's competitors prize money and sponsorship deals while never having to do a Drug test.It's only a matter of time it will collapse.IFBB Drug test = No Fukin Drug test.

[Vince B]

Let's face if folks, if we can't get popular champion and representative, Bob Chick, to honour the IFBB rules and code of conduct then the cause is lost. If he still accepts that drugs are OK in this sport as long as it is 'not obvious' then we are doomed to remain an underground cult, complete with bizarre practices, morals and language.

It is brutally obvious that Bob is deeply entrenched in the acceptance of sordid practices such as steroids and injecting substances that he cannot represent the clean side any longer. I understand that. So he defends to the death his stature and that of his mates who he represents. I wonder if JM and BW would inject themselves with these dangerous substances and drugs? Makes you wonder. So the people who run the sport are hardly practicing professionals. That would be too much to ask.

So along comes upwardly mobile Bob C looking for validation and he found it via the IFBB. Fixed contests, crooked judging, placings for mates, the whole 9 yards. Bob cannot speak openly from his heart. He owes too many people, without whom he would be just another dude hoping to win a show. Bob has lived part of the American dream and has a nice home and family. Clearly he cannot risk what he has to change what provided so much to him. Good luck to Bob. He at least is consistent and thus can initiated nothing of value regarding major changes in the IFBB. What we need is a paradigm shift back to the health and fitness days of the 1940s up until Hercules Unchained about 1959. After that things changed for the worse and have descended rapidly ever since. Bob is the obviously partner in the current decline but, naturally, voices that he is completely and utterly innocent of all charges. Surely that stand makes him eligible for the Goodrum Delusional Award.

[Meltdown]

Vince with your knowledge and history you can make a change just contact media outlets and tell them what is going on with Pro BB and how the sport promotes heavy Drug use and Abuse.You even have the Governor running non tested shows along side of the IFBB.

[Chick]

Let's face if folks, if we can't get popular champion and representative, Bob Chick, to honour the IFBB rules and code of conduct then the cause is lost. If he still accepts that drugs are OK in this sport as long as it is 'not obvious' then we are doomed to remain an underground cult, complete with bizarre practices, morals and language.

It is brutally obvious that Bob is deeply entrenched in the acceptance of sordid practices such as steroids and injecting substances that he cannot represent the clean side any longer. I understand that. So he defends to the death his stature and that of his mates who he represents. I wonder if JM and BW would inject themselves with these dangerous substances and drugs? Makes you wonder. So the people who run the sport are hardly practicing professionals. That would be too much to ask.

So along comes upwardly mobile Bob C looking for validation and he found it via the IFBB. Fixed contests, crooked judging, placings for mates, the whole 9 yards. Bob cannot speak openly from his heart. He owes too many people, without whom he would be just another dude hoping to win a show. Bob has lived part of the American dream and has a nice home and family. Clearly he cannot risk what he has to change what provided so much to him. Good luck to Bob. He at least is consistent and thus can initiated nothing of value regarding major changes in the IFBB. What we need is a paradigm shift back to the health and fitness days of the 1940s up until Hercules Unchained about 1959. After that things changed for the worse and have descended rapidly ever since. Bob is the obviously partner in the current decline but, naturally, voices that he is completely and utterly innocent of all charges. Surely that stand makes him eligible for the Goodrum Delusional Award.

Not quite sure there is a "cause"...and by who, exactly?

It will always be a "cult" sport for the simple reason that mainstream has never embraced it, and never will...making it "clean" as you will...would not make it any more acceptable, just lighter and smaller "freaks" that won't appeal...like the old days. If this had any merrit, the natural shows would have taken over by storm years ago, and th drug infested BB shows, athletes wouyld have long since dissappeared...

I've got news for you...I don't need the IFBB to make a living, hence, your view is wrong. I still speak my mind and make for change on a routine basis...

Things have been descending "rapidly" since 1959?? 50 years and still sinking, huh?

Speaking of delusional..I'm not the one longing for Steve Reeves to make a omeback and save BB as we know it...you are. I'm a realist...I deal with the here and now, with whats going on in the current state of professional bodybuilding...The "good 'ol days" weren't always so good, as evidenced by the chip on the shoulder, bitter outlook of MANY of the "olden era" bodybuilders. They look back fondly....on their training, on their friends...not so much when it comes to the $0 they were making. They did it for themselves and the love of the iron, not the "business of bodybuilding" that motovates many these days...big difference.

Truly delusional is believing that drug testing the athletes would do anything but make an already small and under the radar sport like BB, even smaller, less interesting, and out of business....sorry, Basile..."physical Culture" aint making a comeback any more than the roaring 20's, the buggy whip, or the Maguire Sisters...

of course...I'm sure you cut a mean jig, invented it, and dated one.

[Vince B]

Well, Bob, I appreciate you candid comments. However, I feel your conclusion is false because your premises contain falsehoods.

The biggest change that has occurred re the public is that they accept resistance training. There are many fold more gyms than even 20 years ago. In Australia we have big gym chains that have good facilities and thousands of members. Surely the fans are out there. However, the drugs are not considered fair or part of sport. So the public stay away in droves.

Up until about 1990 most champions denied they took steroids. Some still probably deny it. However, when young kids blurt out that they use steroids then it has filtered down to them and the public rightly rejects the cult because of the association of drugs. If the contests were strictly judged and also a few times in the off season then the champions would have validity.

Recall that the media showed the Olympia in the good old days. Why do they not do so today? Well, clearly they cannot be associated with a group of individuals and sport that allows doping and goodness knows what else. Because of the lax enforcement of rules the Ms Olympia and other pro women's contests have just about evaporated. The Olympia survives because it is staged with the men. The IFBB and all officials must accept the blame for what has resulted from their non-testing of banned substances and practices.

I want the champions to be the epitome of physique which includes health. Perhaps more weight should be placed on aesthetics instead of conditioning in contests? That would do wonders for the sport and especially the women.

It just isn't good enough to rationalize the current practices and then claim it is OK because only a few participate or are fans. That is never going to promote the sport.

[Chick]

Well, Bob, I appreciate you candid comments. However, I feel your conclusion is false because your premises contain falsehoods.

The biggest change that has occurred re the public is that they accept resistance training. There are many fold more gyms than even 20 years ago. In Australia we have big gym chains that have good facilities and thousands of members. Surely the fans are out there. However, the drugs are not considered fair or part of sport. So the public stay away in droves.

Up until about 1990 most champions denied they took steroids. Some still probably deny it. However, when young kids blurt out that they use steroids then it has filtered down to them and the public rightly rejects the cult because of the association of drugs. If the contests were strictly judged and also a few times in the off season then the champions would have validity.

Recall that the media showed the Olympia in the good old days. Why do they not do so today? Well, clearly they cannot be associated with a group of individuals and sport that allows doping and goodness knows what else. Because of the lax enforcement of rules the Ms Olympia and other pro women's contests have just about evaporated. The Olympia survives because it is staged with the men. The IFBB and all officials must accept the blame for what has resulted from their non-testing of banned substances and practices.

I want the champions to be the epitome of physique which includes health. Perhaps more weight should be placed on aesthetics instead of conditioning in contests? That would do wonders for the sport and especially the women.

It just isn't good enough to rationalize the current practices and then claim it is OK because only a few participate or are fans. That is never going to promote the sport.

No question about it...there are many more gyms and many more people lifting weights...and just as many people interested in competitive bodybuilding than 20 years ago. Just because more people are aware of the benefits of weightlifting, doesn't mean they wish to look like a BB, or are interested in watching/ supporting it.

They did show the Olympia on network TV back in the day..and the results came back, and no one watched it, and it never returned. RATINGS were the reason, not the drugs, or testing...just as few people would have watched if they drug tested and put billboards around town with the results...

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

I lose all respect for bodybuilding in 1997 when Nasser clearly won the Mr Olympia and they gave it to a guy with torn muscles and a disgusting, vomit inducing stomach and removed racist tattoos.

After that I still follow the sport but not respect like I did. The best physique did not and does not win.

DIDNT He have a weak back vs dorians sure they were toe to toe, but one part stood out betwen the two guys and it was obviously dorians back...

[Vince B]

Without doing studies re attitudes, etc., no one can say for sure why bodybuilding isn't popular.

I remember when just about everyone believed that musclemen were musclebound. They believed big muscles slowed you down. Ben Johnson disproved that theory forever. Some champions can do the splits and are good athletes. Most athletes do weight training to improve performance.

I remember that many believed musclemen were knuckleheads. Thus, the saying about being all brawn. Arnold disproved that in a big way. However, the sport might classify as an exception and therefore the rule persists. There were many intelligent, educated guys involved in the sport.

I remember when many believed musclemen were homosexuals and mirror athletes. That is not true. 30 years ago psychiatry classified homosexuality as a mental disorder. Clearly, most people can get things wrong. Some champions are homosexual but the majority, I believe, are straight.

It might take a lot of work to get bodybuilding accepted by the public. The point is they have a good reason to reject musclemen now because of the drugs. I mean, why should they admire guys and girls who use those drugs to obtain the physiques they display? The answer: they shouldn't.

[Chick]

Without doing studies re attitudes, etc., no one can say for sure why bodybuilding isn't popular.

I remember when just about everyone believed that musclemen were musclebound. They believed big muscles slowed you down. Ben Johnson disproved that theory forever. Some champions can do the splits and are good athletes. Most athletes do weight training to improve performance.

I remember that many believed musclemen were knuckleheads. Thus, the saying about being all brawn. Arnold disproved that in a big way. However, the sport might classify as an exception and therefore the rule persists. There were many intelligent, educated guys involved in the sport.

I remember when many believed musclemen were homosexuals and mirror athletes. That is not true. 30 years ago psychiatry classified homosexuality as a mental disorder. Clearly, most people can get things wrong. Some champions are homosexual but the majority, I believe, are straight.

It might take a lot of work to get bodybuilding accepted by the public. The point is they have a good reason to reject musclemen now because of the drugs. I mean, why should they admire guys and girls who use those drugs to obtain the physiques they display? The answer: they shouldn't.

You're missing the basic premise....people don't know if an athlete is taking drugs or not...they are looking at a physique. They may believe he's taking drugs due to his level of muscularity, but it's irrelevant. They either like what they see, or they don't. As stated previously...why aren't natural shows, orgs and athletes reverred and all over the place, accepted with open arms by the public? Answer: because no one cares that they've built their physique "naturally" anymore than they would care to see slower sprinters, smaller football players, etc...

[kmhphoto]

The biggest change that has occurred re the public is that they accept resistance training. There are many fold more gyms than even 20 years ago. In Australia we have big gym chains that have good facilities and thousands of members. Surely the fans are out there. However, the drugs are not considered fair or part of sport. So the public stay away in droves.

The majority of the public have stayed away from the sport since it's earliest days and will continue do so. It's nothing to do with whether or not steroids are cheating it's because they don't understand it - no finish line to cross, no knock out punch etc..
I don't know what it's like in Australia but the majority of people who use steroids in the UK don't go to shows, don't buy bodybuilding magazines and never go to shows.

[Vince B]

You know, with stars like Arnold and Bob out there why shouldn't the public accept this sport?

It is not valid to argue that because natural contests are poorly attended that the top shows will be, too, if competitors were natural. That is a fallacy for sure. Nobody knows what the potential for acceptance is if done properly.

The public have some idea of what is going on because they see various huge champions on TV from time to time promoting shows, etc. Therefore, the amateurs are not viewed as representing the epitome of the sport. The Mr Olympia is the top show. So what happens there or is allowed there makes all the difference in the world.

Imagine if Arnold could boast that his shows are thoroughly drug tested? Why shouldn't he be able to up the prize money for that show? IFBB regulations, again, designed to keep the Olympia as the premier show. Arnold lied when he claimed that shows are drug tested and even in the off season. That was balderdash and politically correct bullshit. Arnold should do something and is in a position to do something. I imagine maybe he thinks like Bob Chick and feels it would be a step backwards to do that testing and see reduced athletes. So what, I say! Make this an honest sport and then go out and promote it. We have no idea how popular it can be. Everyone who has built a large physique knows that kids and most people respect him. If our muscles are built with hard work then it can be accepted. The plain truth is that a well-built physique is an excellence in humans. Aesthetics, size, shape and so on can generate a wonderful ideal for everyone to aspire to. No one will respect that ideal if the only way to obtain it is to use drugs, inject substances and have surgery to remove side effects. We got what we deserve in this sport and we deserve what we got.

If Bob is unable to fathom this reality then he should vacate his position and stand down from representing the professionals in his sport. He is bringing the sport shame by arguing to maintain the status quo.

[Meltdown]

Well the IFBB should DELETE their Drug Rule and not make a mockery of BB. ::)Let all the Pros stand up and say with pride I am full of DRUGS.

[Chick]

You know, with stars like Arnold and Bob out there why shouldn't the public accept this sport?

It is not valid to argue that because natural contests are poorly attended that the top shows will be, too, if competitors were natural. That is a fallacy for sure. Nobody knows what the potential for acceptance is if done properly.

The public have some idea of what is going on because they see various huge champions on TV from time to time promoting shows, etc. Therefore, the amateurs are not viewed as representing the epitome of the sport. The Mr Olympia is the top show. So what happens there or is allowed there makes all the difference in the world.

Imagine if Arnold could boast that his shows are thoroughly drug tested? Why shouldn't he be able to up the prize money for that show? IFBB regulations, again, designed to keep the Olympia as the premier show. Arnold lied when he claimed that shows are drug tested and even in the off season. That was balderdash and politically correct bullshit. Arnold should do something and is in a position to do something. I imagine maybe he thinks like Bob Chick and feels it would be a step backwards to do that testing and see reduced athletes. So what, I say! Make this an honest sport and then go out and promote it. We have no idea how popular it can be. Everyone who has built a large physique knows that kids and most people respect him. If our muscles are built with hard work then it can be accepted. The plain truth is that a well-built physique is an excellence in humans. Aesthetics, size, shape and so on can generate a wonderful ideal for everyone to aspire to. No one will respect that ideal if the only way to obtain it is to use drugs, inject substances and have surgery to remove side effects. We got what we deserve in this sport and we deserve what we got.

If Bob is unable to fathom this reality then he should vacate his position and stand down from representing the professionals in his sport. He is bringing the sport shame by arguing to maintain the status quo.

It wasn't accepted when it WAS built without anabolics (alledgedly)....at least the perception was there, to no avail.

The less of a "sporting event" it is...the less people are interested in watching it, or following it....same goes for cliff diving,strongman, weightlifting or Bowling, or horseshoes, darts, etc.

[Vince B]

In 1959 Steve Reeves was a huge star on the screen. Millions of young men were inspired by his physique. In those days only a few went to gyms so no one knows the potential the sport might have if promoted properly as fitness health and physique show. The crowds come for the expos so no one can say bodybuilders aren't popular. Magazine editors have scratched their collective heads of decades trying to figure out how to promote the sport. There is a way to do it. We might not have found it but the potential is huge and should be harvested by marketers. No one can market the current crop of drug users.

That is the bottom line, Chick, there is no debate about this at all. When you can have medical, sports, and academic people respecting what we do then we will have respect. No one deserves respect if he is using drugs to build his physique.

You know, I have been affected by these threads. I am going to give my Mr Canada trophy to my ex. She has helped me heaps in the past and still runs my gym for me.  It means very little to me and is getting tarnished sitting under some junk in my factory.

[Chick]

In 1959 Steve Reeves was a huge star on the screen. Millions of young men were inspired by his physique. In those days only a few went to gyms so no one knows the potential the sport might have if promoted properly as fitness health and physique show. The crowds come for the expos so no one can say bodybuilders aren't popular. Magazine editors have scratched their collective heads of decades trying to figure out how to promote the sport. There is a way to do it. We might not have found it but the potential is huge and should be harvested by marketers. No one can market the current crop of drug users.

That is the bottom line, Chick, there is no debate about this at all. When you can have medical, sports, and academic people respecting what we do then we will have respect. No one deserves respect if he is using drugs to build his physique.

You know, I have been affected by these threads. I am going to give my Mr Canada trophy to my ex. She has helped me heaps in the past and still runs my gym for me.  It means very little to me and is getting tarnished sitting under some junk in my factory.

Wrestling is loaded with the "current crop of drug users", yet, manages to draw thousands of fans to EVERY arena they come to...every PPV...a BILLION dollar venture....because there is ACTION to be followed...it's interesting and exciting to watch.

Funny thing is...it's primarily made up of the very demographics you mention...KIDS. They don't seem to care....

[Vince B]

Bob, I am now going to speak to you as a teacher and father. I have a certificate as a group guidance teacher in BC. When your children grow up you will have to eventually tell them about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. There is no Easter Bunny, either. Well, think of how naive kids are and how they like heroes and want to grow up and be like them. Would you sincerely encourage your son or daughter to aspire to be Mr or Ms Olympia knowing what is required today? I should hope that you would never encourage any kid to cheat and use banned substances. That is just not the way to bring up kids.

There is an ideal that many have achieved naturally and this is what kids should aspire to. There is beauty in the human body and developed muscles increase that beauty in both sexes. However, when distorted bodies result from drug abuse then there can be no ideal relating to those people.

Embrace the drug rules of the IFBB as if you were arguing for all kids out there. No one should have to take drugs or inject substances to be a bodybuilding champion.

[Chick]

Honestly, I can appreciate that...but it does not explain the success of pro wrestling, when the drug scene is WORSE than pro bodybuilding. Sold out venues, 70,000+ at Wrestlemania, PPV raking in millions, etc...

The drugs are NOT the problem...boredom is.