Vince Basile: You seem to harbour much bitterness towards Chick!

[Vince B]

The success of wrestling is not quite relevant to bodybuilding. There are similarities but quite different objectives.

Imagine that if Arnold decided to really put bodybuilding on the map and promoted his own shows outside the IFBB. Suppose he sponsored his own shows out of the goodness of giving back to bodybuilding some of what it gave him. Suppose he got others to help with his show.

Imagine if he raised the prize money to 5 million dollars with Mr ASC receiving $1,000,000 plus prizes such as a watch and hummer, etc. Can anyone imagine the prestige of winning that show? Suppose he insisted that all competitors have to be naturals and will be tested on 3 occasions prior to the contest at random times? The competitors also had to pass a lie detector test.

Along with the fitness champions he would instantly have the premier bodybuilding show in the world. Maybe he could make a rule that you can win the title and prizes only once? That would open up the competition and keep it interesting. No need to duplicate the staleness of the Olympia and the reputations that were hard to defeat. What we need is a clean sweep by someone who can rise above what everyone else is doing. Arnold could direct DEA to every open contest in America and make sure there are no drug cheats there. This is all doable.

In the meantime, funds can be directed to research to make discoveries in exercise science that will make steroids unnecessary. Perhaps there are shortcuts but we haven't found them yet.

If such a prestigious contest were held I am sure the public would be interested. It would generate a lot of interest because of the prize money. Nothing like a winner becoming an instant millionaire to make something worthwhile.

If we dream then everything is possible. If we hide our heads in the sand and proclaim that no one is interested in our cult sport then no one will bother because the practices are against what everything stands for. Ben did the hard work coming up with the rules and codes. They should be followed or changed to make them viable and worth following.

[New Hank Wood]

Vince, you have been on this 'cause' for a long while now. 

Your ideas regarding the Arnold Pro are interesting.  I agree, offering large prize money is bound to create interest among 'many a natural'.

Vince, where is the 'starting point' for such a venture though?  How can a 'drug free' sport be realistically achieved?

Vince McMahon was on the right track with his WBF (albeit the drugs) and look what happened there!

I just don't know what can be done to save this sport from the overt drug abuse, corrupt officials and blatant double standards.

Anyway, i admire your passion Vince.

[Vince B]

I am not holding my breath for a 'service to bodybuilding award' from the IFBB! 

[mossel]

This has been the most interesting thread I've seen in a while...

bis bis!

[Moosejay]

The success of wrestling is not quite relevant to bodybuilding. There are similarities but quite different objectives.

Imagine that if Arnold decided to really put bodybuilding on the map and promoted his own shows outside the IFBB. Suppose he sponsored his own shows out of the goodness of giving back to bodybuilding some of what it gave him. Suppose he got others to help with his show.

Imagine if he raised the prize money to 5 million dollars with Mr ASC receiving $1,000,000 plus prizes such as a watch and hummer, etc. Can anyone imagine the prestige of winning that show? Suppose he insisted that all competitors have to be naturals and will be tested on 3 occasions prior to the contest at random times? The competitors also had to pass a lie detector test.

Along with the fitness champions he would instantly have the premier bodybuilding show in the world. Maybe he could make a rule that you can win the title and prizes only once? That would open up the competition and keep it interesting. No need to duplicate the staleness of the Olympia and the reputations that were hard to defeat. What we need is a clean sweep by someone who can rise above what everyone else is doing. Arnold could direct DEA to every open contest in America and make sure there are no drug cheats there. This is all doable.

In the meantime, funds can be directed to research to make discoveries in exercise science that will make steroids unnecessary. Perhaps there are shortcuts but we haven't found them yet.

If such a prestigious contest were held I am sure the public would be interested. It would generate a lot of interest because of the prize money. Nothing like a winner becoming an instant millionaire to make something worthwhile.

If we dream then everything is possible. If we hide our heads in the sand and proclaim that no one is interested in our cult sport then no one will bother because the practices are against what everything stands for. Ben did the hard work coming up with the rules and codes. They should be followed or changed to make them viable and worth following.

Very good, and Arnold would be one who could get all of this done.

[New Hank Wood]

Vince, you bring Arnold into the mix.  Do you honestly believe Arnold can save bodybuilding?

[KillerMonk]

No drugs in Modern Bodybuilding are you fucking nuts Vince, Like Chick said this a Cult underground sport.Freaks sell and they sell Big.

I think you have to make the decision of never going to another Pro IFBB contest and stick to natural 180 pound guys contests.

Sitting in the audience of a natural show would make me puke, Imagine guys on gear sitting in the audience outweighing guys on stage by 100 pounds.

Honestly wake up to reality Bodybuilding would die a slow death if Drugs were removed from Pro Bodybuilding.

[New Hank Wood]

Vince, seriously, what are your chances of setting up a meeting with Arnold.  You could outline your strategy for 'saving the sport'?

My point is, rather that just 'rambling on', make a positive and forthright move. 

Vince, you have some good ideas, it is now just a matter of you putting them into practice...Yes, you need to contact Arnold; i cant see any other way around it!

[dr.chimps]

Bob, I am now going to speak to you as a teacher and father. I have a certificate as a group guidance teacher in BC. When your children grow up you will have to eventually tell them about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. There is no Easter Bunny, either. Well, think of how naive kids are and how they like heroes and want to grow up and be like them. Would you sincerely encourage your son or daughter to aspire to be Mr or Ms Olympia knowing what is required today? I should hope that you would never encourage any kid to cheat and use banned substances. That is just not the way to bring up kids.

There is an ideal that many have achieved naturally and this is what kids should aspire to. There is beauty in the human body and developed muscles increase that beauty in both sexes. However, when distorted bodies result from drug abuse then there can be no ideal relating to those people.

Embrace the drug rules of the IFBB as if you were arguing for all kids out there. No one should have to take drugs or inject substances to be a bodybuilding champion.

Vince, step away from the dais; no need for lectures. I think that most here are pragmatists, and jaded ones at that. We know the score, and for better or worse, we accept it. Chick has made some good points, and while he may be too canny and glib for your liking, he has presented a stronger more 'realistic' paradigm for bb'ing than you.  I would like to abolish organized religion but I fancy my chances are, given what I know about people(farkin' people!), slim to none. I live with it and myself. 

/how about some new sydney photos for the board?

[chester_bbb]

DIDNT He have a weak back vs dorians sure they were toe to toe, but one part stood out betwen the two guys and it was obviously dorians back...

No way. Look at this back. It's perfection.

[G o a t b o y]

...but it does not explain the success of pro wrestling, when the drug scene is WORSE than pro bodybuilding.

 


Anabolic abuse IS pro bodybuilding.  The "sport" doesn't exist without it.  By definition, there is no sport where the drug scene is worse.

[bigdumbbell]

 


Anabolic abuse IS pro bodybuilding.  The "sport" doesn't exist without it.  By definition, there is no sport where the drug scene is worse.

the sport is:  assessing the effects of drugs on human anatomy       

[Hurricane Beef !]

Vince, you are a man who has lived the bodybuilding dream.  You have run gyms and engineered new and innovative equipment.

Vince, you have an anthology of work including some of the most amazing photos from the 1980 Olympia.

My point is: You are a man who has achieved so much in life; so why are you now spending your twilight years taunting and deriding Chick? Don't you have more meaningful things to do in your life?

Has all this 'smack talk' about the Athlete's Rep come about because you are bored and lonely?  Or do you genuinely believe he is a liability to the sport?

Not hating, just interested in understanding your mindset.

What pictures?

The beef

[Chick]

The success of wrestling is not quite relevant to bodybuilding. There are similarities but quite different objectives.

Imagine that if Arnold decided to really put bodybuilding on the map and promoted his own shows outside the IFBB. Suppose he sponsored his own shows out of the goodness of giving back to bodybuilding some of what it gave him. Suppose he got others to help with his show.

Imagine if he raised the prize money to 5 million dollars with Mr ASC receiving $1,000,000 plus prizes such as a watch and hummer, etc. Can anyone imagine the prestige of winning that show? Suppose he insisted that all competitors have to be naturals and will be tested on 3 occasions prior to the contest at random times? The competitors also had to pass a lie detector test.

Along with the fitness champions he would instantly have the premier bodybuilding show in the world. Maybe he could make a rule that you can win the title and prizes only once? That would open up the competition and keep it interesting. No need to duplicate the staleness of the Olympia and the reputations that were hard to defeat. What we need is a clean sweep by someone who can rise above what everyone else is doing. Arnold could direct DEA to every open contest in America and make sure there are no drug cheats there. This is all doable.

In the meantime, funds can be directed to research to make discoveries in exercise science that will make steroids unnecessary. Perhaps there are shortcuts but we haven't found them yet.

If such a prestigious contest were held I am sure the public would be interested. It would generate a lot of interest because of the prize money. Nothing like a winner becoming an instant millionaire to make something worthwhile.

If we dream then everything is possible. If we hide our heads in the sand and proclaim that no one is interested in our cult sport then no one will bother because the practices are against what everything stands for. Ben did the hard work coming up with the rules and codes. They should be followed or changed to make them viable and worth following.

It is relevant...almost to a "T". You believe that steroids are the reason that BB is not accepted my the mainstream, and why kids don't look up to BBers, or aspire to be one. Steroids and drugs are just as big in pro wrestling, guys have huge builds, and 99.9% of people THINK they are using steroids...yet, they are on prime time TV, sell million dollar PPV cards, sell out arena's on a weekly basis, and their fan base is 75% kids...

Doesn't seem to make a difference, does it?

Face it...bodybuilding is not that exciting. They got it on prime time TV...for 5 seconds...it tanked in the ratings never to return.

[dearth]

epic denial of the role of steroids!!

boredom is the reason bodybuilding is not on TV (as you stated)
drugs is main bodybuilding is a less than accepted by the mainstream.

drugs use is the most blatant in bodybuilding as all sports, plain and simple.
this is fairly obvious, but most drug users/promoters of drug use tend to ignore this simple fact.

It is relevant...almost to a "T". You believe that steroids are the reason that BB is not accepted my the mainstream, and why kids don't look up to BBers, or aspire to be one. Steroids and drugs are just as big in pro wrestling, guys have huge builds, and 99.9% of people THINK they are using steroids...yet, they are on prime time TV, sell million dollar PPV cards, sell out arena's on a weekly basis, and their fan base is 75% kids...

Doesn't seem to make a difference, does it?

Face it...bodybuilding is not that exciting. They got it on prime time TV...for 5 seconds...it tanked in the ratings never to return.

[Chick]

epic denial of the role of steroids!!

boredom is the reason bodybuilding is not on TV (as you stated)
drugs is main bodybuilding is a less than accepted by the mainstream.drugs use is the most blatant in bodybuilding as all sports, plain and simple.
this is fairly obvious, but most drug users/promoters of drug use tend to ignore this simple fact.

epic lack of comprehension skills!!

epic lack of sentence structure...

[Van_Bilderass]

I think Basile and Howie should start an all natural pro league and show the IFBB how bodybuilding should be marketed. I mean they have all the answers to the drug epidemic and the corruption.

Basile's man-crush Vince Goodrum could be the poster boy. Goodrum could become the black Steve Reeves!

[G o a t b o y]

epic denial of the role of steroids!!

boredom is the reason bodybuilding is not on TV (as you stated)
drugs is main bodybuilding is a less than accepted by the mainstream.

drugs use is the most blatant in bodybuilding as all sports, plain and simple.
this is fairly obvious, but most drug users/promoters of drug use tend to ignore this simple fact.

Bob is 100% right on this one...  drugs have nothing to do with bb's lack of mainstream acceptance.  Every other sport is drugged-up, everyone knows it, and no one (outside of soccer moms and congressmen) cares.

Bodybuilding is not accepted because:

1) As a spectator sport, it's about as exciting as watching paint dry.

2) The whole thong/oil/routine thing is percieved by the public as very gay (rightly so).

3) The "meathead" stereotype still exists in the minds of the general public, and many of the things IFBB pros and national-level competitors do don't help at all.

[toolarge4u]

The success of wrestling is not quite relevant to bodybuilding. There are similarities but quite different objectives.

Imagine that if Arnold decided to really put bodybuilding on the map and promoted his own shows outside the IFBB. Suppose he sponsored his own shows out of the goodness of giving back to bodybuilding some of what it gave him. Suppose he got others to help with his show.

Imagine if he raised the prize money to 5 million dollars with Mr ASC receiving $1,000,000 plus prizes such as a watch and hummer, etc. Can anyone imagine the prestige of winning that show? Suppose he insisted that all competitors have to be naturals and will be tested on 3 occasions prior to the contest at random times? The competitors also had to pass a lie detector test.

Along with the fitness champions he would instantly have the premier bodybuilding show in the world. Maybe he could make a rule that you can win the title and prizes only once? That would open up the competition and keep it interesting. No need to duplicate the staleness of the Olympia and the reputations that were hard to defeat. What we need is a clean sweep by someone who can rise above what everyone else is doing. Arnold could direct DEA to every open contest in America and make sure there are no drug cheats there. This is all doable.

In the meantime, funds can be directed to research to make discoveries in exercise science that will make steroids unnecessary. Perhaps there are shortcuts but we haven't found them yet.

If such a prestigious contest were held I am sure the public would be interested. It would generate a lot of interest because of the prize money. Nothing like a winner becoming an instant millionaire to make something worthwhile.

If we dream then everything is possible. If we hide our heads in the sand and proclaim that no one is interested in our cult sport then no one will bother because the practices are against what everything stands for. Ben did the hard work coming up with the rules and codes. They should be followed or changed to make them viable and worth following.

Problem is arnold takes 1 mill just to show up at the arnold. He aint given back shit, hes still taken

[bodybuildermdpitt]

epic lack of comprehension skills!!

epic lack of sentence structure...

Bob, I have given you grief in the past about your views, but in the end you are right. You have to sell a product that the people want. You really can't argue with that. Society has changed from the 1950s and 1960s. The culture, dress, sports, vernacular, and even food has changed. There is excessive designer drug use in baseball, basketball, and football in our modern time. Why should bodybuilding be any different? Being 200 pounds was once big in football, lets see how a 200 pound linebacker does now in the NFL. You can extend this same analogy to bodybuilding. There is no point of hating on Bob, he is just accepting bodybuilding for what it is, and milking it for all he can 


cheers,

bodybuildingmdpitt

[Meltdown]

Chick if everyone knows that Pros use heaps of Banned substances why the Fuk have that Drug Rule????And all this talk about Drug use I guess it's LEGAL to use and store DRUGS.FFS the only reason this house has not crumbled is care factor.One day someone will give a Fuk and then watch the end of IFBB Pros.Remember how they ran and looked when the last IFBB Drug tests were done.Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmm

[Chick]

Chick if everyone knows that Pros use heaps of Banned substances why the Fuk have that Drug Rule????And all this talk about Drug use I guess it's LEGAL to use and store DRUGS.FFS the only reason this house has not crumbled is care factor.One day someone will give a Fuk and then watch the end of IFBB Pros.Remember how they ran and looked when the last IFBB Drug tests were done.Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmm

It's already been answerd 10 different ways...do you REALLY not know why they have the rule in place?

[onlyme]

Honestly if this was the "Official" Poster Boy for the IFBB everything would change.

[io856]

Honestly if this was the "Official" Poster Boy for the IFBB everything would change.

"Steroids don't work with no diet and exercise."
O RLY?

[Vince B]

It is relevant...almost to a "T". You believe that steroids are the reason that BB is not accepted my the mainstream, and why kids don't look up to BBers, or aspire to be one. Steroids and drugs are just as big in pro wrestling, guys have huge builds, and 99.9% of people THINK they are using steroids...yet, they are on prime time TV, sell million dollar PPV cards, sell out arena's on a weekly basis, and their fan base is 75% kids...

Doesn't seem to make a difference, does it?

Face it...bodybuilding is not that exciting. They got it on prime time TV...for 5 seconds...it tanked in the ratings never to return.

I am not buying this argument. That many of the top wrestlers used drugs might be true but I doubt the public thinks about this. Why? Well, the bodies might be part of the entertainment but wrestlers are characters and do moves, many of which are high risk, athletic tricks. The persona and arsenal of tricks is far more important that sheer size. That little Mexican Mercurio didn't need big muscles or size to be a star.

Bodybuilders are totally what they look like. If the reason for this excellence is cheating via drugs and injected substances plus a painted on tan and surgery to remove cysts then who out there should admire and respect them? The public isn't buying it. What has happened to women' bodybuilding is so extreme that even most male bodybuilders do not find them acceptable or attractive. When women lose their sex appeal and facial beauty they can hardly blame anyone for rejecting that sport. When most male viewers would not want to look like the champions then it will be difficult to sell the sport to the public. We know how the public doesn't understand how different bodybuilders look under those posing lights and after shedding fat to show the definition and separation. However, there should be a way to present the bodybuilders in a better light. Maybe contests have to be held outside in the sunshine? I am just throwing some ideas out there. If people view us as being ugly while posing under lights then perhaps we should change our presentation.

The media comes down hard on anyone who is caught using steroids. We have seen that in bike riding, athletics, baseball, and even football. I am amazed that the Olympic weightlifters pass the drug test but some do not. That is why offseason testing is required and also a polygraph. Cheaters must be banned for life. There should be no exceptions. Only then will the playing field be level. Marion Jones was stripped of her medals because she cheated. What everyone concludes is that she can't run that fast or jump that far without those drugs. Therefore, she didn't deserve to win and whoever she beat takes her place. She loses all the respect and admiration she earned over a spectacular career. The same thing happened to Ben Johnson. A pity so many cheaters got away with it because they used substances like growth hormone which wasn't detectable. The women's 100 metre record is probably a suspect one as is the 400 done in 1988 in Canberra by an East German. Cheaters have prospered but they have also damaged the sport.

If it is true that professional bodybuilders would be nowhere as big as they are without those drugs then they don't deserve to be admired, respected, or rewarded. If the public knew the drug protocols and that these guys inject substances into muscle to make them larger then the game is over. The test for public acceptance is simple: let sports medicine doctors examine the athletes to see if they respect them. If not then no one should respect those pros.

I honestly cannot comprehend why Bob cannot see this. I suppose those who get to the elite professional level these days have had to cheat for years and so they do not think it is bad. Heck, I used a few bottles of Dianabol in the seventies and I don't feel good about it at all. It is possible to get big without using drugs or supplements.

The magazines in our sport used to be rather thin. We used to read them from cover to cover because the content wasn't much. Compare that to the thick issues we have today. Why are they so thick? Well, supplement companies are trying to sell their products to people who read those magazines. Can anyone imagine the potential market just for supplements if bodybuilding was totally natural? It could be at least 10 fold what it is now and maybe many times that. Bodybuilding com is sponsoring webcasts so maybe it isn't impossible to do that sort of thing?