time off?

[mopar_freak]

What is a good period of time to wait to start a new stack after your PCT?

[Van_Bilderass]

Impossible to answer. I mean you could also ask why come off at all?

[busyB]

Impossible to answer. I mean you could also ask why come off at all?

Exactly. Some guys think they are "off" when they are bridging between cycles.

You will get about 100 different answers on this topic. How many cycles have you done before? Longer you stay "on", more compounds you use, longer it takes to recover even after PCT.

[thelamefalsehood]

It just takes time to learn your body and when you feal like yourself again, no one answer will suffice. The rule of thumb I always use though is strength. When my strength levels off and stays just at or below my cycles strength highs, is when I've judged I'm back to normal. This is never a week or two after the cycle or even PCT, but when all synthetic hormones are completely gone and my strength level is supported by my bodies hormonal output only. This little rule has always worked well for me.

[mopar_freak]

lol some guys???   im asking YOU guys

[4thAD]

IMO time on = time off, unless your on HRT!

[brent2741]

if your ON for 12 weeks you should come off for at least 12 weeks

[candidizzle]

theres a huge difference in opinion.

Impossible to answer. I mean you could also ask why come off at all?

IMO time on = time off, unless your on HRT!

see?


it depends bro.

let the guys know what your goals are

[abc123]

Impossible to answer. I mean you could also ask why come off at all?

I know you recommend HCG and THEN Clomid for PCT.  I agree with that if approach one plans to stay off cyle for a decent amount of time to get their HPTA back to normal. 

BUT, I am on HRT my doc recommends just coming off for a short time.  He suggests starting PCT two weeks after the last shot of Test - using HCG and Clomid at the SAME TIME.  I would then start the next cycle immediately after I finish the HCG.

So, If thats only about five weeks between my last shot of Test and the beginning of the next cycle, how should I structure PCT to keep my system as healthy as possible? 

Please keep in mind that I run HCG during my cycle and I don't really care about coming off FOR NOW (I have all the kids I want!).  I just want to keep things functional for down the road.

Thanks.

[Van_Bilderass]

I know you recommend HCG and THEN Clomid for PCT.  I agree with that if approach one plans to stay off cyle for a decent amount of time to get their HPTA back to normal. 

BUT, I am on HRT my doc recommends just coming off for a short time.  He suggests starting PCT two weeks after the last shot of Test - using HCG and Clomid at the SAME TIME.  I would then start the next cycle immediately after I finish the HCG.

So, If thats only about five weeks between my last shot of Test and the beginning of the next cycle, how should I structure PCT to keep my system as healthy as possible? 

Please keep in mind that I run HCG during my cycle and I don't really care about coming off FOR NOW (I have all the kids I want!).  I just want to keep things functional for down the road.

Thanks.

This can not be called HRT. HRT is for life with no breaks. You say you want to keep things functional for down the road, are you going to come off for good sometime?

I guess the doc is worried about inducing secondary hypogonadism. But I don't know if that will occur if you cycle for years with no breaks. If someone knows how frequently this occurs in juicers please post. What the doc has you do will increase lutenizing hormone for a while, but like I said I don't know beneficial it is in the long term for those who want to come off for good down the road.

[freakfestMD]

BUT, I am on HRT my doc recommends just coming off for a short time.  He suggests starting PCT two weeks after the last shot of Test - using HCG and Clomid at the SAME TIME.  I would then start the next cycle immediately after I finish the HCG.


Thanks.

I agree with Van Bilderass.  This doesn't make sense to me.  True HRT is basically hormone replacement for life.  What would be achieved by 2-4 weeks off with hcg, or any PCT for that matter?

[freakfestMD]

What is a good period of time to wait to start a new stack after your PCT?

For me, time off= time on works well.  That's 6 months on/6 months off.  It keeps me very large all year round, with only one stretch of about 2 months with low libido after the cycle ends.

[abc123]

My doctor's goal is to keep my test levels stable the whole time - using HCG/Clomid during the five week break and then continuing with more testo.  My understanding is that he uses HCG during cycle and then HCG and Clomid in between cycles to prevent further loss of the body's ability to produce test/sperm.  I should note that I DO produce test naturally and recently got my wife pregnant, I am just in the low range.

Let me re-ask my question in a couple of different ways...

First, if I only want to take five weeks off between the last shot and next shot, how should I use the HCG/Clomid? 

Second, if I just don't come off at all, will the HCG during the cycle prevent further hypogonadism?  And/or will the bodies ability to produce lutenizing hormone decrease?

Thanks.

[busyB]

lol some guys???   im asking YOU guys

C'mon, this is getbig. No one comes off and we are all 300 lbs and RIPPED! 

[Van_Bilderass]

Let me re-ask my question in a couple of different ways...

First, if I only want to take five weeks off between the last shot and next shot, how should I use the HCG/Clomid? 

Second, if I just don't come off at all, will the HCG during the cycle prevent further hypogonadism?  And/or will the bodies ability to produce lutenizing hormone decrease?

Thanks.

I don't know the answer to the second question. I suspect that LH suppression is temporary most of the time and it bounces back pretty quickly.

As far as how to take the Clomid and HCG, I don't know which protocol is the optimal one.

Here's one study with combined HCG, Clomid and Nolvadex that restored test in 45 days after a 12 week cycle. So perhaps something like this would work well for you. But since you use HCG during your cycle you probably wouldn't need these dosages of HCG. It's really hard to say since there aren't a ton of studies available.

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

[abc123]

I don't know the answer to the second question. I suspect that LH suppression is temporary most of the time and it bounces back pretty quickly.

As far as how to take the Clomid and HCG, I don't know which protocol is the optimal one.

Here's one study with combined HCG, Clomid and Nolvadex that restored test in 45 days after a 12 week cycle. So perhaps something like this would work well for you. But since you use HCG during your cycle you probably wouldn't need these dosages of HCG. It's really hard to say since there aren't a ton of studies available.

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

I took a look at the PDF and that is similar to what my doctor is suggesting minus the Nolvadex.  He suggests 1000 IU of HCG EOD (total of 20 days) with 50 mg of Clomid twice a day for a week.  But, thats only a total of three weeks compared to the 45 days in the PDF.

Since I've been using HCG throughout and am using Propionate for a few weeks at the end, I might modify his suggestion a little.  I could wait 1 1/2 weeks after the Propionate and then begin HCG at 1000 IU EOD for ONE WEEK along with Clomid for THREE WEEKS and Nolva for FOUR.  I think it will be a similar result, but shorter because I won't need as much HCG.

Do you disagree?

[Van_Bilderass]

Sounds good to me.

[4thAD]

I took a look at the PDF and that is similar to what my doctor is suggesting minus the Nolvadex.  He suggests 1000 IU of HCG EOD (total of 20 days) with 50 mg of Clomid twice a day for a week.  But, thats only a total of three weeks compared to the 45 days in the PDF.

Since I've been using HCG throughout and am using Propionate for a few weeks at the end, I might modify his suggestion a little.  I could wait 1 1/2 weeks after the Propionate and then begin HCG at 1000 IU EOD for ONE WEEK along with Clomid for THREE WEEKS and Nolva for FOUR.  I think it will be a similar result, but shorter because I won't need as much HCG.

Do you disagree?

1000iu hcg eod for a total of 20 days and running during cycle is way to much hcg IMO. The protocol for hcg that I and lots of others use successfully is 500iu  e3d or 2xew while on cycle. Starting hcg at first administration of test. Running hcg during cycle and then during PCT doesnt make a whole lot of sense either, as you never get a chance to really recover naturally if that is your goal during the "so called hrt break". Im on HRT also and I use HCG very sparingly. I will use it for a boost (as described above) then not use it at all for a period of time. Right now Im on 200mg ew test and Im going to drop that down to 200mg e2w. The goal I have for HRT is to run enough for replacement, but not so much that my natural production shuts down. When I drop the dose I will not use hcg at all.

As far as time off goes between cycles I still stand by time on = time off. I do this just to remain healthy, and make sure I can still recover properly. For how long I stay on hrt will be determined. I guess as long as I feel completely normal I will remain on. HRT is still fairly new to me so we will see how it goes.

[abc123]

1000iu hcg eod for a total of 20 days and running during cycle is way to much hcg IMO. The protocol for hcg that I and lots of others use successfully is 500iu  e3d or 2xew while on cycle. Starting hcg at first administration of test. Running hcg during cycle and then during PCT doesnt make a whole lot of sense either, as you never get a chance to really recover naturally if that is your goal during the "so called hrt break". Im on HRT also and I use HCG very sparingly. I will use it for a boost (as described above) then not use it at all for a period of time. Right now Im on 200mg ew test and Im going to drop that down to 200mg e2w. The goal I have for HRT is to run enough for replacement, but not so much that my natural production shuts down. When I drop the dose I will not use hcg at all.

As far as time off goes between cycles I still stand by time on = time off. I do this just to remain healthy, and make sure I can still recover properly. For how long I stay on hrt will be determined. I guess as long as I feel completely normal I will remain on. HRT is still fairly new to me so we will see how it goes.

Thanks for your input. I'm new to HRT as well. 

It's been years since I really used much gear and I got out of shape.  So, right now I'm just trying to add muscle and lose fat to get back to a respectable condition.  I don't care about being that big. 

Currently, I am about 204 lbs and 6% bf at 6'.  I will probably do one more 12 week cycle of test, deca and winnie cycle to put on a bit more muscle - maybe up to 210 - 215 lbs - and then take a break from androgens and anabolics.  I can retain that size pretty well with just Humalog preworkout.

So, in between this cycle and the next I can:

A) Just keep going for another 12 weeks; or

B) Just skip the HCG at the end and go straight to clomid and Nolvadex for four weeks before resuming the test, etc.  As I mentioned before, I am using Propionate now for a couple of weeks to let the long esters clear out.  I might also add a couple of weeks of an oral after the Prop so that when i discontinue the oral my test levels will be very, very low at which point I can start the clomid and then Nolva with fully functioning nuts (thanks to the HCG used up until the end).

What do you think?

[4thAD]

I think you should run the HCG now and let your body recover with just clomid or nolvadex when your done with the cycle. Run the HCG and stop it 4 days prior to starting PCT.

[freakfestMD]

I think you should run the HCG now and let your body recover with just clomid or nolvadex when your done with the cycle. Run the HCG and stop it 4 days prior to starting PCT.

I like this suggestion as well.

[E N A N T H A T O R]

The Endocrinologists on this board crack me up. Every one is an expert after a cycle or two. I pity the FOOLS who take the advice here too seriously.

[candidizzle]

The Endocrinologists on this board crack me up. Every one is an expert after a cycle or two. I pity the FOOLS who take the advice here too seriously.

who are you talking about enanth? van, busy b, and 4th all know what they are talking about.

[E N A N T H A T O R]

who are you talking about enanth? van, busy b, and 4th all know what they are talking about.

In general, people here throw out info like they are doctors. Come on, doing a few cycles and reading a book or two does not qualify someone to be giving information on hrt. Maybe voice their opinion but directing someone on how to run an hrt.

[4thAD]

The Endocrinologists on this board crack me up. Every one is an expert after a cycle or two. I pity the FOOLS who take the advice here too seriously.

First off you don't need to be an Endocrinologist to know how to use a few drugs effectively and safely. Second I dont spout off about things I myself dont practice. When it comes to HCG and such I know how to use it effectively, Ive run the experiments on myself, and Ive done the research. Do you have any better suggestions for proper HCG use Enanthator? I know others on this board like different protocols for HCG use, but it is preference. To each his own what works for you might not work for all, but the protocol I suggested does work for most that have run it true.

If you have a better suggestion and you know what your talking about lets hear it! Otherwise STFU! This isn't the G&O. We have good knowledgeable people here and people come here for solid safe advice.