Don't blame us for prices - oil execs

[youandme]

where is that at?

[shootfighter1]

Removing subsidies will not put $ in people's wallets, but if the oil companies are seeing such good profit while our people are hurting, there's no good reason to give them tax breaks...unless they are investing in solutions to our fuel/energy crisis with long term solutions.  Giving them subsidies for exploring new technology helps us all.

Three things that need to be done now. 
1- We need to start drilling in our country to increase supply.  This will certainly bring down the oil prices quickly.  We cannot depend on other countries to supply all our energy.  Prices will not go down because worldwide demand is increasing quickly.
2- Force car manufacturers in this country to increase fuel efficiency.
3- Give incentives to companies to explore effective new technology.

[OzmO]

Removing subsidies will not put $ in people's wallets, but if the oil companies are seeing such good profit while our people are hurting, there's no good reason to give them tax breaks...unless they are investing in solutions to our fuel/energy crisis with long term solutions.  Giving them subsidies for exploring new technology helps us all.

Three things that need to be done now. 
1- We need to start drilling in our country to increase supply.  This will certainly bring down the oil prices quickly.  We cannot depend on other countries to supply all our energy.  Prices will not go down because worldwide demand is increasing quickly.
2- Force car manufacturers in this country to increase fuel efficiency.
3- Give incentives to companies to explore effective new technology.

Agreed, except that drilling and affecting the supply will not happen as quickly as we want.

[BayGBM]

where is that at?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/your_scene_blog/2008/05/the-gas-prices.html

Remember, this is exactly what Americans voted for.  Or did you think electing two oil men was going to lower oil prices? 

[a_joker10]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/your_scene_blog/2008/05/the-gas-prices.html

Remember, this is exactly what Americans voted for.  Or did you think electing two oil men was going to lower oil prices? 

You might want to thank Congress as well.

[OzmO]

You might want to thank Congress as well.

I heard somewhere in the last 24 hours that congress has been voting restricting drilling in America for the last 20 years.

Is that true?

[a_joker10]

I heard somewhere in the last 24 hours that congress has been voting restricting drilling in America for the last 20 years.

Is that true?

Environmental lobby.
http://www.farallones.org/e_newsletter/2006-03/Offshoredrillingplan.htm
For the last twenty-five years, the outer continental shelf has been protected from offshore oil drilling in two ways: the moratorium that is voted on by Congress each year and that has historically enjoyed bipartisan support; and by Presidential fiat – first from the Senior Bush and later by President Clinton. Congress is set to vote once again on the moratorium in October. The presidential decree is poised to expire in 2012.

http://www.ucsusa.org/ssi/archive/anwr-information-update.html
Although the existence of oil and gas deposits on the Arctic coastal plain had been known for decades, the discovery of the Prudhoe Bay oil field west of ANWR in 1968 was critical to the pressure for ANWR exploration and development. Prudhoe Bay, with the 800-mile-long Trans-Alaska Pipeline (TAPS) carrying oil to the Pacific at Valdez, led to a boom in Alaska's economy. Every Alaska citizen receives a direct annual payment of hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars as their share of the oil revenue.

[BayGBM]

The country can not drill its way out of high oil prices. The solution is to mandate vehicles that do not run on gasoline.  We already have the technology to do this.  We did it in California in the 1990s. Over the objections of car makers who insisted they could not do it (technologically) the CA Air and Resources board mandated that a certain percentage of vehicles sold in the state be zero emission vehicles.

Given a choice between making money or losing out to the competition, most carmakers offered a vehicle that met the mandate and did not run on gasoline.  Toyota offered an electric version of the RAV4 http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/rav4ev/  other manufacturers offered similar electric cars…. And all was well.

Until the oil interests realized that their gravy train in CA was in trouble and in danger of spreading to other states.  "If this movement away from gas powered cars catches on, we're fucked!" So they lobbied hard to have the mandate rescinded.  They won, and electric cars were no longer sold in the state.

A few people who did not lease--but bought--those electric cars still have them but all the leased electric cars were returned at the end of the lease term (customers were not allowed to buy them at that point) and destroyed.  See the movie Who Killed the Electric Car?  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

Obviously the technology for those electric cars is still around; in fact, it is much more advanced now.  Honda has a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle ready to go http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

And so does BMW http://www.hybridcars.com/vehicle/bmw-hydrogen-7.html

So does Toyota…  The only thing stopping these vehicles from being sold NOW is the strength of the oil lobby; there are vested interests in the this country that would like nothing better than to keep the country addicted to oil.  The higher the price... the better. 

[calmus]

Camus,
Which part, wind power isn't reliable, or that wind power doesn't require standby generation,
http://www.ncpa.org/prs/tst/20040501hsburnett.htm
Because of intermittency problems, wind farms need conventional power plants to supplement the power they do supply. Bringing a conventional power plant on line to supply power is not as simple as turning on a switch; therefore most “redundant” fossil fuel power stations must run, even if at reduced levels, continuously. Accordingly, very little fossil-fired electricity will be displaced and few emissions will be avoided because fossil-fueled units (operating at less than their peak capacity and efficiency or operating in “spinning reserve” mode – which means they are emitting more pollution per energy produced than if operating at peak efficiency, imagine a car idling near train tracks in case the power goes out) must be kept immediately available to supply electricity when the output from wind turbines drop because wind speed slows or falls below minimums required to power the turbines. Kilowatt-hours produced by wind turbines cannot be assumed displace the emissions associated with an equal number of kWh from fossil-fueled generating units. Combined with the pollutants emitted and CO2 released in the manufacture and maintenance of wind towers and their associated infrastructure, substituting wind power for fossil fuels does not improve air quality very much.

That standby generation requires as much energy as a wind farm generates.

[shootfighter1]

a_joker, what is your backround (how do you know so much detail on this topic?).  Impressive.

Yes, it won't happen as quickly as we'd like but it would be one of the faster solutions.
I agree about emissions for cars (or another source of energy if its effective).

[a_joker10]

I am a mechanical engineer.
I design heating and energy systems for green buildings. So I spend quite a bit of time researching these topics.

[spotter]

This has to be the only industry in the country that always makes a profit, no matter what, good economy, bad economy, etc. 

Don't blame us for prices - oil execs
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: May 21, 2008: 3:47 PM EDT


Big Oil execs testified before the Senate Tuesday, saying high oil prices were largely out of their control and more drilling in the U.S. is needed.

The record-high price of gasoline is putting a strain on American motorists - and spurring some to shift their habits. Here are their stories.

OPECBig oil companiesSupply and demandThey are unavoidable or View results
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Amid increasing public outcry over record-shattering oil and gas prices, senators on Wednesday hauled industry executives in to testify about the recent runup.

The Senate Judiciary Committee called the hearing to explore the skyrocketing price of oil, which jumped over $4 a barrel to a new record of over $133. The committee grilled executives from Exxon Mobil (XOM, Fortune 500), ConocoPhillips Co. (COP, Fortune 500), Shell Oil Co. (RDSA), Chevron (CVX, Fortune 500) and BP (BP) as to how their companies can in good conscience make so much money, while American drivers pay so much at the pump.

"You have to sense what you're doing to us - we're on the precipice here, about to fall into recession," said Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill. "Does it trouble any one of you - the costs you're imposing on families, on small businesses, on truckers?"

The executives said it did, and that they are doing all they can to bring new oil supplies to market, but that the fundamental reasons for the surge in oil prices are largely out of their control.

"We cannot change the world market," said Robert Malone, chairman and president of BP America Inc. "Today's high prices are linked to the failure both here and abroad to increase supplies, renewables and conservation."

Malone's remarks were echoed by John Hofmeister, president of Shell.

"The fundamental laws of supply and demand are at work," said Hofmeister. The market is squeezed by exporting nations managing demand for their own interest and other nations subsidizing prices to encourage economic growth, he said.

In addition, Hofmeister said access to resources in the United States has been limited for the past 30 years. "I agree, it's not a free market," he said.

The executives pushed the idea that large parts of the U.S. that are currently closed to drilling - like sections of Alaska, the Rocky Mountains and the continental shelf - should be opened.

"The place to start the free market is in our own country," said one executive. [The drilling ban] sets the stage for OPEC to do what we are doing in our own country, and that is effectively limiting supplies."

John Lowe, executive vice president of ConocoPhillips, said Congress should enact a balanced energy policy. In addition to lifting the drilling ban, such a policy could include measures to encourage alternative energy sources, remove the ethanol tariff, promote energy conservation, cut regulations around refining.

"We must work together to find a real solution," said Lowe. "U.S. oil companies should be viewed not as scapegoats, but as assets."

The executives also named several things that Congress should not do, first among them being a hike in taxes or an undoing of the mergers of the late 1990s.

"Americans need companies that can effectively compete for access to new resources," said Peter Robertson, vice chairman of Chevron. "Punitive measures that weakened us in the face of international competition are the wrong measures."

The executives also frowned on a recently passed House bill giving the Justice Department the power to sue OPEC, saying it would have little effect in boosting production.

The testimony was colored by a few outbursts of protest from members of the public. Before the hearing even began, a heckler in the crowd shouted: "Stop ripping off the American public - bring these oil prices down."

The panel took issue with the amount of money oil firms are investing in finding oil, and investing in renewables.

"You know how much cash you have on hand compared to capital investment," said Durbin. "They are begging us for more refineries, for more exploration, when their refineries are only operating at 85 percent."

Chevron's Robertson said the issue wasn't really one of refining, and more just the price of crude.

We are investing all we can [in finding new oil] given the limitations of access and our own human capacity," he said. "We have adequate refined capacity, inventories are at an all time high. The issue is the price of crude."

Committee Chairman Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., likely summed up the feeling of many senators on the panel.

"The people we represent are hurting, while your companies are profiting," he said. "We need to get some balance."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/21/news/economy/oil_hearing/index.htm?cnn=yes

It does not matter which side of the fence you are on, Dem, or Rep., both sides should have addressed the "oil issue" long ago.   1973 & 1979 shortages should have been a "kick in the butt" to find alternative fuels.  The Oil companies have strong lobbies, that block any changes.  Regarding Bush, even if he made any true suggestions to assist in this matter, its "too little too late".  The less said about him the better.   Americans like to drive "big ass" vehicles, well, now that China, & India are coming out as "drivers", the middle east does not care who gets the oil, just who pays the most for it!!    Are we sure that this is not a backlash to being in Iraq?   I have a small car now, and it costs almost $40.00 to fill it.  I truly feel for people who need large vehicles....Its a damn shame.   

[calmus]

Camus,
Which part, wind power isn't reliable, or that wind power doesn't require standby generation,
http://www.ncpa.org/prs/tst/20040501hsburnett.htm
Because of intermittency problems, wind farms need conventional power plants to supplement the power they do supply. Bringing a conventional power plant on line to supply power is not as simple as turning on a switch; therefore most “redundant” fossil fuel power stations must run, even if at reduced levels, continuously. Accordingly, very little fossil-fired electricity will be displaced and few emissions will be avoided because fossil-fueled units (operating at less than their peak capacity and efficiency or operating in “spinning reserve” mode – which means they are emitting more pollution per energy produced than if operating at peak efficiency, imagine a car idling near train tracks in case the power goes out) must be kept immediately available to supply electricity when the output from wind turbines drop because wind speed slows or falls below minimums required to power the turbines. Kilowatt-hours produced by wind turbines cannot be assumed displace the emissions associated with an equal number of kWh from fossil-fueled generating units. Combined with the pollutants emitted and CO2 released in the manufacture and maintenance of wind towers and their associated infrastructure, substituting wind power for fossil fuels does not improve air quality very much.

That standby generation requires as much energy as a wind farm generates.


Still waiting for a source. thanks.

[War-Horse]

That standby generation requires as much energy as a wind farm generates.


Still waiting for a source. thanks.

Yes.  This doesnt make sense.    Backup generators would only be needed infrequently....not fulltime as indicated.    Implying that a whole area would rely totally on one area of energy would be illogical.  The wind gens could channel flow directly to the grid to take some of the load off at least.

[a_joker10]

That standby generation requires as much energy as a wind farm generates.


Still waiting for a source. thanks.

The source is in the last post you quoted.

Power plants on standby use cooling towers to load shed,
They actually use as much fuel (energy) however they dump the steam in to cooling towers. This is why emission don't decrease.
http://www.ncpa.org/prs/tst/20040501hsburnett.htm
Accordingly, very little fossil-fired electricity will be displaced and few emissions will be avoided because fossil-fueled units (operating at less than their peak capacity and efficiency or operating in “spinning reserve” mode – which means they are emitting more pollution per energy produced than if operating at peak efficiency, imagine a car idling near train tracks in case the power goes out) must be kept immediately available to supply electricity

[War-Horse]

The source is in the last post you quoted.

Power plants on standby use cooling towers to load shed,
They actually use as much fuel (energy) however they dump the steam in to cooling towers. This is why emission don't decrease.
http://www.ncpa.org/prs/tst/20040501hsburnett.htm
Accordingly, very little fossil-fired electricity will be displaced and few emissions will be avoided because fossil-fueled units (operating at less than their peak capacity and efficiency or operating in “spinning reserve” mode – which means they are emitting more pollution per energy produced than if operating at peak efficiency, imagine a car idling near train tracks in case the power goes out) must be kept immediately available to supply electricity

What is your solution?   We need solutions....Ideas.

[a_joker10]

The true solution in my opinion is proper energy management. Using the right fuel for the application, and trying to maximize efficiencies. Plug loads are a huge problem.

I am a big believer in Nuclear energy, and geothermal energy.

But mot in the ways that you think, I believe its is to use the ground temperatures to moderate ventilation and air conditioning directly. This is happening in some big buildings in Northern Europe.

Ocean Cooling is happening Hawaii, Lake cooling in Toronto.

There are big district system in Russia that are much more effective, because they generate electricity and then share the heat with the communities. New York City is pioneer this technology in some of their new Office towers.

Some of this technology is hard to implement on a small scale because of tenant metering. People in North America don't like to share.

In warm enough places (ground temperature) use Rakine power generation (Nevada, etc.) They are doing a big Rakine project in North Dakota.

I also believe in Plug-in hybrids, I think the technology is closer then many realize, and there are kits right now for some hybrids to turn them into plugin hybrids.

I think Nordic wrote about Data centers. Data center design electricity is going to be about 10X higher in the near future.

Presently most major data centers are about 7kW a rack, with increased power requirements, streaming movies, HD Content, Cell phone videos, the new data centers (5 years) will be around 80kW a rack.

The EPA knows this is about to happen and has started some new power requirements for electrical devices.

[Soul Crusher]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/your_scene_blog/2008/05/the-gas-prices.html

Remember, this is exactly what Americans voted for.  Or did you think electing two oil men was going to lower oil prices? 

same shit

[pedro01]

The speculators do the most damage, as FDR said in his inaugural address in 1933 "unscrupulous moneychangers" Edmund Burke said the same thing just before the French Revolution, not to say the execs don't have a hand in taking those profits but it's the publics opinion and fear that drive this machine.

Absolutely. Oil prices are set by Futures contract prices on the Nymex.

It is the supply & demand for Futures contracts that really sets the price.

[MM2K]

$4 gas at 5% unemployment is better than $3 gas at 10% unemployment, no? I would like to know where the liberals are hiding that blamed Bush for high gas prices. Americans are to blame for high gas prices. When you bitch about global warming and oil rigs off the coast, shut your fucking utopian trap when energy prices go up. Its pathetic that most Americans and John McCain became more open to more US drilling ONLY when gas hit $4 a gallon. You should have been for that 10 years ago when we had $2.00 gas.  You get what you fucking deserve when you let the religion of enviromentalism get in the way of energy policy.  Stop wasting subsidies and taxpayer money on crap like solar energy and wind farms. Stop wasting our food on ethanol. And please stop being suckers to dipshits like T. Boone Pickens who are just trying to get more of your taxpayer money. Stop blaming oil companies, stop blaming the speculators. If the speculators are wrong, they lose a shitload of money.  Dont shoot the messenger. Blame the politicans, environmentalists, and the federal reserve. In general, stop being a bunch of fucking morons.

[Soul Crusher]

The libs whop blamed bush are silent now that their messiah is in office.

[Option D]

Its all Bush's fault....we've been cozing up to the House of Saud for years and its all the Repubs fault..nope its America's fault and we have it in our power to change course. How nice would it have been if Bush could have told the Saudi's to go pound sand last week whne they refused to up oil production.

[Soul Crusher]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/your_scene_blog/2008/05/the-gas-prices.html

Remember, this is exactly what Americans voted for.  Or did you think electing two oil men was going to lower oil prices? 

What is your excuse now?

[Option D]

LOL and thats the game youre gonna play...nice.. good luck with that


liberals.. hahaha look..hahaha see...

fuckin kid.. i have told you this wasnt a political thing for a year now.. an you are still playing this game.. man o man are you fucked in the head

Its all Bush's fault....we've been cozing up to the House of Saud for years and its all the Repubs fault..nope its America's fault and we have it in our power to change course. How nice would it have been if Bush could have told the Saudi's to go pound sand last week whne they refused to up oil production.

and thats from hh6 a republican...

but i see your whole schtick is to play the us vs them game... im not gonna even insult you any more..

[Option D]

$4 gas at 5% unemployment is better than $3 gas at 10% unemployment, no? I would like to know where the liberals are hiding that blamed Bush for high gas prices. Americans are to blame for high gas prices. When you bitch about global warming and oil rigs off the coast, shut your fucking utopian trap when energy prices go up. Its pathetic that most Americans and John McCain became more open to more US drilling ONLY when gas hit $4 a gallon. You should have been for that 10 years ago when we had $2.00 gas.  You get what you fucking deserve when you let the religion of enviromentalism get in the way of energy policy.  Stop wasting subsidies and taxpayer money on crap like solar energy and wind farms. Stop wasting our food on ethanol. And please stop being suckers to dipshits like T. Boone Pickens who are just trying to get more of your taxpayer money. Stop blaming oil companies, stop blaming the speculators. If the speculators are wrong, they lose a shitload of money.  Dont shoot the messenger. Blame the politicans, environmentalists, and the federal reserve. In general, stop being a bunch of fucking morons.

and its obamas fault for the unemployment right.. not the economy tanking before he got office.. wow ok