Soldier Suicide Rates at all time high: yeah, Iraq is a great thing...

[tonymctones]

tony, if we left theyd turn on eachother full force.    However we have opened a can of worms in that they will have the chance to hold the USA in their sights forever......and justifyiably so.   

The point is there will never be a "Right" time to leave.  It will only get worse as we spend resources we dont have to build their country while we destroy our own.....

maybe they would turn on each other but what happens when one side wins out???
Iono if its justifyiable so b/c we could go back and find a situation that we could say the islamic community wronged the christian or any other community for that reason to insight a war just like they do sooo.....sooner or later one side is going to have to let something go b/c it will never end.

now the bold is something i can agree with...like i said earlier its a damned if we do and a damned if we dont situation

[tonymctones]

interesting, a very close friend (M.D.) works in the VA system treating PTSD and traumatic brain injured.......he'd surely disagree with your "cheery" assessment.


NT

is that M.D. a pychiatrist? b/c thats the treatment that these veterans need, a strictly medical doctor is not properly equiped to handle their problems

[headhuntersix]

We're doing as much as we can....but I tell u what instead of a bunch of bullshit social programs we can double the budget of the VA.

[Slapper]

A few things...

And it can be argued that the military protects the entity that executes the constitution.

No, the military is an entitity whose job is to protect the integritity of the territory's borders.

Also the Military has been responsible for stopping aggression abraod that might have changed the course of world history for the worst and protecting our interests as well as our borders.

No, that is not protecting, that is called aggression, invasion, occupation and state terrorism.

A man, who believes he is serving his country and fighting terrorists goes to voluntarily and puts himself in harms way, IS a hero in my eyes.

Personal opinion. I personally think exactly the opposite (not that you'd care any way). Any way, what happens when a man "who believes he is serving his country" is actually not helping his country? What should he do?

The fact the war was wrongly justified is irrelevant regarding his due respect for what he's sacrificed.  And to call him a murder is appalling and disgraceful.

Noone is calling them murderers. Although if they believe they are not doing the jobs they were trained to do (defending the integrity of the US borders) then you should definitely get up and LEEEEEAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVEEE EEEEEE!!!! The same way you'd leave a job as a lawyer if they had you mopping the floors and cleaning the windows of the 63rd floor on a scaffold on your first day.

Maybe the actions of the commanding Generals, but I'm talking about the common soldier who has no say in policy or military decisions.  Like HH6.  Fact is the Generals, maybe for the wrong reasons, do what they can to limit the death of innocent  people.

That is not true either. When the invasion of Irak, for example, was being planned out, the majority of the generals knew there was nothing there (they get CIA information too). What would've been of most benefit for the USA as a country would've been for them to get up and go public with their discontent. They did not do it because the US military has become a mercenary army of the corporations.

Simple, they are doing what they are ordered to do and doing what they believe is defending America.

And how are they defending America?

At this point, in the war, i really believe if they leave so many will die as Iraq plunges into civil war. They are needed there becuase our president made the worse foriegn policy decision in the history of America and we cannot just leave our mess and see hundreds of thousands die as a result.

The fact of the matter is that it was not only Bush. I mean, let's be realistic here. Wih Bush Big Oil took control of the military and they let greed make the worst decision in modern military times. People didn't just get up and go public with their discontent because, let's face it, all of these Washington bureaucrats want a 6-figure job in the corporate world after theit "public" jigg is up.

Let's face it, there are some really screwed up killers in our military, just as there are screwed up killers in American society nowadays. Do we call them heroes because they're "defending" something? Nope.

I'm fairly sure that this dichotomy has something to do with the hight rates of suicides amongst our soldiers.

[headhuntersix]

I guess intervening in Bosnia to stop the genocide...or in Somalia should have been accomplished by the boy scouts then. The war was to secure oil....and to make sure Saddam wasn't ever a threat or a sponsor of terror.

[OzmO]

A few things...

No, the military is an entitity whose job is to protect the integritity of the territory's borders.

That kind of thinking would have had Japan ruling China an the Pacific (Hawaii was not a state yet) and a Hitler ruled Europe and possible Asia.

But you know best. 

(I am very opposed to the Iraq war, by the way)

No, that is not protecting, that is called aggression, invasion, occupation and state terrorism.

Was D-Day State terrorism?  How about Leyte?  Iwo Jima? Sicily?  Inchon?

That's what i was talking about.

Personal opinion. I personally think exactly the opposite (not that you'd care any way). Any way, what happens when a man "who believes he is serving his country" is actually not helping his country? What should he do?

People aren't Heros if they fight for something they believe is a just cause IF you don;t agree with that cause?

So if i apply some of your other thoughts, then those who fought in WW2 were invovled in State Terrorism and should be recognized for their sacrifices?

What should he do?  If he is enlisted, resign, get an honorable discharge in this instance.  If it's like Genocide by the nazi's then desert. 

Noone is calling them murderers. Although if they believe they are not doing the jobs they were trained to do (defending the integrity of the US borders) then you should definitely get up and LEEEEEAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVEEE EEEEEE!!!! The same way you'd leave a job as a lawyer if they had you mopping the floors and cleaning the windows of the 63rd floor on a scaffold on your first day.

You should read the posts above. Someone was calling them murders.  HTH.   

And being in the military is different from having a JOB.  If the military ran like a job, we'd have been conquered long ago becuase our army would be a joke.   You obviously have little idea or knowledge about how a good military works and only see things from the view point of your ideas not understanding at all how a country's strong military protect them in peace as well as war. 

Yeah, just think, Hawaii gets attacked, or some bad battle happens and people just walk off their post and say "I quit"

That is not true either. When the invasion of Irak, for example, was being planned out, the majority of the generals knew there was nothing there (they get CIA information too). What would've been of most benefit for the USA as a country would've been for them to get up and go public with their discontent. They did not do it because the US military has become a mercenary army of the corporations.

You are partially preaching to the choir here.   But again, concerning Generals speaking out prior, that's not the oath they took to begin with when they signed up, which again shows your lack of understanding about how a competent military works inside the frame work of our government.

Besides we are talking HH6 mainly.

And how are they defending America?

Amen brother!

The fact of the matter is that it was not only Bush. I mean, let's be realistic here. Wih Bush Big Oil took control of the military and they let greed make the worst decision in modern military times. People didn't just get up and go public with their discontent because, let's face it, all of these Washington bureaucrats want a 6-figure job in the corporate world after theit "public" jigg is up.

Let's face it, there are some really screwed up killers in our military, just as there are screwed up killers in American society nowadays. Do we call them heroes because they're "defending" something? Nope.

I'm fairly sure that this dichotomy has something to do with the hight rates of suicides amongst our soldiers.

The suicides rates is a good questions.   But I agree their are bad apples every where and there are sure to be scum bags in the military as well.  But as whole, 99% of them are honorable.  I know many, have been around many all my lives.   they are harding working, committed people who raise families and are just doing what they believe is right.

[Slapper]

That kind of thinking would have had Japan ruling China an the Pacific (Hawaii was not a state yet) and a Hitler ruled Europe and possible Asia.

But you know best. 

(I am very opposed to the Iraq war, by the way)

Was D-Day State terrorism?  How about Leyte?  Iwo Jima? Sicily?  Inchon?

It's simple: in WWII the US government were implicitly asked for military help from the British, French and other European governments to end the German ocupation. No one asked us to act on Irak. That was a complete and utter disgrace. An act of aggression. And the US military has been involved in many act of aggression. It is now time for all these generals and admirals to demand to know 2 thing when asked to invade a sovereign country: 1. What is the reason why we must attack another country and 2. What is the REAL threat that country poses to our borders. If the executive branch fails to answer positively to any of the questions the president is publicly told to GO FUCK HIMSELF. The kids go back to the farm and colleges and noone moves a fucking finger.

People aren't Heros if they fight for something they believe is a just cause IF you don;t agree with that cause?

That's fucking bullshit. Nowadays anyone's a hero. To me a hero is a person who tells the coporate lobbyist that we're not invading another country to turn off the spiggots and know that he runs the risk of being assasinated and left without a dime because of that decision. Someone who grabs a gun and shoots someone because they say "I hate Amrica" is a fucking idiot.

So if i apply some of your other thoughts, then those who fought in WW2 were invovled in State Terrorism and should be recognized for their sacrifices?

What should he do?  If he is enlisted, resign, get an honorable discharge in this instance.  If it's like Genocide by the nazi's then desert.

Again, the WWII argument. Look, if you can't tell the difference between what we did in WWII and what we've done from the Korean war on... I ain't gonna tell you. You figure it out. 

You should read the posts above. Someone was calling them murders.  HTH.   

And, like in American society, some of them are. What is the fucking deal?

And being in the military is different from having a JOB.  If the military ran like a job, we'd have been conquered long ago becuase our army would be a joke.   You obviously have little idea or knowledge about how a good military works and only see things from the view point of your ideas not understanding at all how a country's strong military protect them in peace as well as war.

The key word is protect, not attack. You seem to be unable to tell the difference. 

Yeah, just think, Hawaii gets attacked, or some bad battle happens and people just walk off their post and say "I quit"

Again, you're mixing apples and oranges here. Pearl Harbour was an act of AGGRESSION from another country. Our response to it was JUSTIFIED. Out attack on Irak, Viet Nam, North Korea, Grenada, Panama, etc. was UNJUSTIFIED. CA-FUCKING-PISCI?

You are partially preaching to the choir here.   But again, concerning Generals speaking out prior, that's not the oath they took to begin with when they signed up, which again shows your lack of understanding about how a competent military works inside the frame work of our government.

NUMBER 1 QUESTION ANY SOLDIER HAS TO ASK HIM/HERSELF WHEN CALLED INTO DUTY: How am I protecting the border of the USA? If the superior fails to answer the question, you LLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAA AVVVVVEEEEE. If you stay you are a de facto mercenary. Which is what the US military has become.

[OzmO]

It's simple: in WWII the US government were implicitly asked for military help from the British, French and other European governments to end the German ocupation. No one asked us to act on Irak. That was a complete and utter disgrace. An act of aggression. And the US military has been involved in many act of aggression. It is now time for all these generals and admirals to demand to know 2 thing when asked to invade a sovereign country: 1. What is the reason why we must attack another country and 2. What is the REAL threat that country poses to our borders. If the executive branch fails to answer positively to any of the questions the president is publicly told to GO FUCK HIMSELF. The kids go back to the farm and colleges and noone moves a fucking finger.

Sounds great, very idealistic, and very naive, However, that's not how a good military works.  People follow orders.   The politicians must be held accountable for their actions in this case.  The way you view the military, is how countries end up getting invaded.

Again, the WWII argument. Look, if you can't tell the difference between what we did in WWII and what we've done from the Korean war on... I ain't gonna tell you. You figure it out. 

I'm not arguing that.  You should go back a re-read. 

And, like in American society, some of them are. What is the fucking deal?

Again, instead of your mouth overloading you ass, you should go back a re-read.

The key word is protect, not attack. You seem to be unable to tell the difference. 

I think you are one of these cry baby libs, you have no understanding of reality and unless someone totally agrees with your idealistic, fantasy view of the world, you label them.   Have you not read, my views on the war?  Or is that been grouped up with your miss cue on War-Horse calling HH6 a murderer?

You seem no different than the resident neo-cons who throw the "lib" stereo types around as much as a racist does with blacks. (only in reverse)
Re-read the post.  I'm talking about how a military is ran.  Your idea or what you are suggesting is plain stupid and shows your ignorance and how some of your views are anchored in fantasy land.

I'm not one that advocates invading sovereign nations unprovoked.[/b][/u]  Do you get that?  Should i type 300 times in a 24pt size font, so maybe you'll read it?   

That's fucking bullshit. Nowadays anyone's a hero. To me a hero is a person who tells the coporate lobbyist that we're not invading another country to turn off the spiggots and know that he runs the risk of being assasinated and left without a dime because of that decision. Someone who grabs a gun and shoots someone because they say "I hate Amrica" is a fucking idiot.

Is that what happened?   they said "I hate America"?   Is that what going on in Iraq?  Is that what's the insurgency all about.  People voicing their hate for America and us killing them?   

At this point it's far more complicated than that.  Of Course, none of this had to happen if BUSH didn't make the worse foreign policy decision in the history of the presidency.

Again, you're mixing apples and oranges here. Pearl Harbour was an act of AGGRESSION from another country. Our response to it was JUSTIFIED. Out attack on Irak, Viet Nam, North Korea, Grenada, Panama, etc. was UNJUSTIFIED. CA-FUCKING-PISCI?

North Korea?  They attacked first.   Aside from that, I agree.
CA-FUCKING-PISCI?  What does that mean?

NUMBER 1 QUESTION ANY SOLDIER HAS TO ASK HIM/HERSELF WHEN CALLED INTO DUTY: How am I protecting the border of the USA? If the superior fails to answer the question, you LLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAA AVVVVVEEEEE. If you stay you are a de facto mercenary. Which is what the US military has become.

No you don't leave.  You took an oath.  If you didn't want to accept the oath, then you shouldn't have joined in the first place.

[War-Horse]

If a person joins the military believing he will protect our country and instead sees an occupation and friends blown up for no good reason.....he should speak out!!    If he does he is a HERO!!

Being recruited for a noble reason is not the same as being used to occupy and terrorize another nation.  It is your job to humanity to be honest so that upon your last breath you may have a half a chance at mercy.
The big picture is that we are to answer to GOD and not George Bush.....

Slapper is right.

[OzmO]

If a person joins the military believing he will protect our country and instead sees an occupation and friends blown up for no good reason.....he should speak out!!    If he does he is a HERO!!

Being recruited for a noble reason is not the same as being used to occupy and terrorize another nation.  It is your job to humanity to be honest so that upon your last breath you may have a half a chance at mercy.
The big picture is that we are to answer to GOD and not George Bush.....

Slapper is right.

Disagree.

Being recruited is irrelevant.  They chose to sign up.  They signed up because they believed we were fighting terrorism, the terrorism that killed 3000 people.  When considering the military personal, Iraq is not relevant, they are there because they believe they are doing good, they believe they disposed of a brutal dictator and are establishing democracy.   All of which are noble causes.  Now, you and I don't see Iraq as a noble cause.  We see it as a strategic grab for regional power at the expense of the lives of Iraqis and Americans. 

We are not terrorizing Iraq.  We are occupying it and fighting an insurgency.  We are not fighting people because they say they hate America.  And these fighting men and women who would risk their lives to save our nestled asses, deserve credit even though they are there on what we believe are false pretenses.

Many are quitting the military and many are speaking out.  However, when you are in the military, to be effective, you do not allow involvement in politics and allow it's personal to speak out against it.  I know it doesn't "fit into" those ideals that you and slapper think they should, but it's how a strong military, which helps maintain peace, continues.  If the soldiers feels that strongly about it like that guy in Hawaii, then good for him, although he is breaking his oath and leaving his comrades hanging and if he's string enough to face the consequences of his actions then good for him again.  But, regardless, he should go to prison.   It's just the facts of life, War-horse, the military isn't a democracy.  The minute it is, it becomes ineffective.

You should be thankful, to any person in the military, who signed up to lay down his/her life for you.  It doesn't matter if the cuase is just in your eyes or not.  It's the politicians who send them to unneeded wars that should be hanged.

That's my point.  That's all.  Other than running the military like Mac Donald's would be totally stupid.

[War-Horse]

True. They signed up and now they owe.   Doesnt mean they wont regret when they see it was all a sham.  Im sure the suicides speak for themselves.

Its a mess and we need to get out.  There will never be a right time to do it.  They want us out badly.

[OzmO]

True. They signed up and now they owe.   Doesnt mean they wont regret when they see it was all a sham.  Im sure the suicides speak for themselves.

Its a mess and we need to get out.  There will never be a right time to do it.  They want us out badly.

Some want us out and some don't.  there are many that will gain from us being there, while most probably could give a rats ass because all they really want is to live live peaceful fruitful lives.

We leave things will get really bad.  At some point, you are right we may need to just cut our loses.  It's still looking like it will never be stable until the next brutal dictator takes power.

The people that want us out are using religion and ideology to rally their cause.  In the end, it's about an opportunity to take power.  Don't kid yourself.  That's where the real shams in the world are.


As far as people regretting.  Some will.  Many won't.

[headhuntersix]

Look, If i get to start calling the shots as opposed to the DOD  then some of u idiots would be in alot of trouble. Do u honestly think we're going to start questioning the orders of the President, especially with Iraq. Sorry Slapper, we doin't work that way. I won't execute an order that is unethical, immoral or illiegal. Congress voted for the war, we had lawful orders and we invaded. Sorry u don't like the case for war, sorry Saddam didn't have the wmd's. He's gone, we control the oil and bases in the Middle East. Regardless of my feelings on the war, we had our orders and we went.

[OzmO]

Look, If i get to start calling the shots as opposed to the DOD  then some of u idiots would be in alot of trouble. Do u honestly think we're going to start questioning the orders of the President, especially with Iraq. Sorry Slapper, we doin't work that way. I won't execute an order that is unethical, immoral or illiegal. Congress voted for the war, we had lawful orders and we invaded. Sorry u don't like the case for war, sorry Saddam didn't have the wmd's. He's gone, we control the oil and bases in the Middle East. Regardless of my feelings on the war, we had our orders and we went.

Slapper thinks that in an Army, if anytime you don't agree, then you should have the option to walk off.  Otherwise, in the case of Iraq you are a de-facto mercenary

[headhuntersix]

Yeah well if I'm a merc i must have missed the 600-1000 a day i was supposed to get. Hey I've said I don't agree with the war. More on how we fought in the beginning etc. I'm not as opposed to it as some on the board, and I won't air our dirty laundry or bash the country, but Bush made a mistake.

[headhuntersix]

Well slow office day, everybody is on the road so I better grab a haircut in keeping with my Nazi standards. 

[Decker]

..Again I never said Iraqi ppl would "Join hands and swim across the ocean to storm our beaches" in fact i said that wasnt probable, I said the insurgents (maybe you were confused by the farmer/insurgents comment but that was a comment on war-horses comment) wouldnt stop fighting the US even if we left and you didnt say whether you agree or not?

So the US leaves Iraq and the farmers/insurgents still want to fight the US?  Can you see why I jokingly asked if they'd join hands to make that fighting intention a reality?  How else would they fight us unless they came to america somehow?

I never said it would prevent a further attack, in fact if the insurgents there were smarter they wouldnt fight on their land they would attack US resources and establishments, and im sure that there are ppl and groups planning that right now as we converse. However for some reason they feel that they must make a stand in iraq so I would much rather them make a stand there than make a statement over here.

what is the alternative? good question, I think its one of those we're damned if we do and we're damned if we dont kinda things.

The war on terror will never be worth it to some b/c it does not have tangible results, you never see the number of lives saved. The war in Iraq has very concrete consequences however so the cost/benefits are hard if not impossible to see.

The insurgents are Iraqi people that don't play ball with the puppet government installed by the invading US forces.  As long as we are there, they'll be there.

[headhuntersix]

There are alot less of em....the war as it stands now is winding down. It could heat up...but what we're seeing is that the locals are losing interest and AQI is finding things harder to do.

[War-Horse]

There are alot less of em....the war as it stands now is winding down. It could heat up...but what we're seeing is that the locals are losing interest and AQI is finding things harder to do.

If one of our checks bounce on them, itll heat up again.

[headhuntersix]

They get paid in cash...

[Slapper]

Sounds great, very idealistic, and very naive, However, that's not how a good military works.  People follow orders.   The politicians must be held accountable for their actions in this case.  The way you view the military, is how countries end up getting invaded.
I'm not arguing that.  You should go back a re-read. 

Again, instead of your mouth overloading you ass, you should go back a re-read.

I think you are one of these cry baby libs, you have no understanding of reality and unless someone totally agrees with your idealistic, fantasy view of the world, you label them.   Have you not read, my views on the war?  Or is that been grouped up with your miss cue on War-Horse calling HH6 a murderer?

You seem no different than the resident neo-cons who throw the "lib" stereo types around as much as a racist does with blacks. (only in reverse)
Re-read the post.  I'm talking about how a military is ran.  Your idea or what you are suggesting is plain stupid and shows your ignorance and how some of your views are anchored in fantasy land.

I'm not one that advocates invading sovereign nations unprovoked.  Do you get that?  Should i type 300 times in a 24pt size font, so maybe you'll read it?   

Is that what happened?   they said "I hate America"?   Is that what going on in Iraq?  Is that what's the insurgency all about.  People voicing their hate for America and us killing them?   

At this point it's far more complicated than that.  Of Course, none of this had to happen if BUSH didn't make the worse foreign policy decision in the history of the presidency.

North Korea?  They attacked first.   Aside from that, I agree.
CA-FUCKING-PISCI?  What does that mean?

No you don't leave.  You took an oath.  If you didn't want to accept the oath, then you shouldn't have joined in the first place.

Ok, let me put it in simple terms 'cause I get the feeling you have A.D.D. and it seems as though everything I write goes right through you. What is the difference between aggression and defense? If you commit an act of aggression you are not defending yourself. Do you understand this simple fact?

Also, when you military people signed up for paintball on Saturdays and took the "oath"... To what or who exactly did you promise your loyalty?

[OzmO]

Ok, let me put it in simple terms 'cause I get the feeling you have A.D.D. and it seems as though everything I write goes right through you. What is the difference between aggression and defense? If you commit an act of aggression you are not defending yourself. Do you understand this simple fact?

Also, when you military people signed up for paintball on Saturdays and took the "oath"... To what or who exactly did you promise your loyalty?

They didn't take an "Oath" to play paint ball.  So participation is optional.  they did take an oath to follow the commander and chief who also got the green light form congress so participation is not optional.

ADD has nothing to do with either of those points.  So i could be George Washington or Charles Mansion.  Nothing will change that.


Now, I Agree with just about everything you say regarding the war except the right of the soldiers to walk off.

[headhuntersix]

Ok, let me put it in simple terms 'cause I get the feeling you have A.D.D. and it seems as though everything I write goes right through you. What is the difference between aggression and defense? If you commit an act of aggression you are not defending yourself. Do you understand this simple fact?

Also, when you military people signed up for paintball on Saturdays and took the "oath"... To what or who exactly did you promise your loyalty?

Paintball..is that what u think its like..you're a real piece of shit. U have no concept of duty, or country or anything. Ur a worthless human being...fucking paintball. Asshole.

[calmus]

Paintball..is that what u think its like..you're a real piece of shit. U have no concept of duty, or country or anything. Ur a worthless human being...fucking paintball. Asshole.

lol... meltdown. Don't worry dude, you're a legend



























.... in your own mind. 

[Slapper]

Paintball..is that what u think its like..you're a real piece of shit. U have no concept of duty, or country or anything. Ur a worthless human being...fucking paintball. Asshole.

Meltdown! We'll do it tomorrow! Hahaha.

Look, GI Joe wannabe, "concept of duty", concept of "country" and all the terms you talk about are all relative terms, meaning they mean different things to different people. It's only when you profess a one-dimesional, pseudo-fascist doctrine that attaches these relative terms to a specific group of people or geographical area that they then take onto a very dangerous dimension.

Now, go drown in you own vomit.