Ron Paul makes a major move...

[stormshadow]

You could not have earned one thin dime if it were not for the tax dollars of people that came before you. 

I disagree.  "Money" is the representation of value created for another person(s). 

Even on an island, I can use my brain, my labor, my talents to create value for another.  The only requirement is my productive capacity, and another human to engage in free exchange.

If you read Ben Franklin's Autobiography you will find that the local police (militia), fire department, library, were all creations from the private sector.

Pull your nose out of Marx and Engels for a change and read some Locke and Bastiat.

[stormshadow]

So you think the government, of the People and by the People, should let some of the people crash and burn b/c there some taxpayers out there too cheap to kick in some tax dollars that alleviate much suffering?

YES!!

Governments are instituted among men to secure the rights of Life, Liberty, and Property.

That is to which the Founders pledged their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor.

Not Welfare, Security, and Freedom from Suffering.

[Decker]

I disagree.  "Money" is the representation of value created for another person(s). 

Even on an island, I can use my brain, my labor, my talents to create value for another.  The only requirement is my productive capacity, and another human to engage in free exchange.

If you read Ben Franklin's Autobiography you will find that the local police (militia), fire department, library, were all creations from the private sector.

Pull your nose out of Marx and Engels for a change and read some Locke and Bastiat.

I have little use for Bastiat.  He is a veritable joke to me.  I like John Locke.

The value that you create for another would not happen without the accomplishments of others already paid to society.  Did you educate yourself?  Did you make your own clothes.  In short, did you create the infrastructure that shaped your life?  No.  So you start out in the hole already.

[Bindare_Dundat]

I have little use for Bastiat.  He is a veritable joke to me.  I like John Locke.

The value that you create for another would not happen without the accomplishments of others already paid to society.  Did you educate yourself?  Did you make your own clothes.  In short, did you create the infrastructure that shaped your life?  No.  So you start out in the hole already.

I think we're starting to veer off the subject a bit now.

[Decker]

YES!!

Governments are instituted among men to secure the rights of Life, Liberty, and Property.

That is to which the Founders pledged their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor.

Not Welfare, Security, and Freedom from Suffering.

So let people crash and burn so that you can enjoy the purity of your interpretation of governance?  I don't think so.

John Locke posited life, liberty and property.  The US constitution states life, liberty and happiness.  There's a difference....for everybody.

The founders wrote the constitution to guarantee that the 'right people' always ruled, i.e., the monied class.

The Founders were not deities.  They were well educated men.  But they were moral fucks too:  slave owners, destroyers of indians, oppressors of women.

I suggest you read Alexis de Tocqueville's work.  Why he chose democracy over aristocracy.

[Decker]

I think we're starting to veer off the subject a bit now.

Who the hell's Ron Paul? ! !

[stormshadow]

John Locke posited life, liberty and property.  The US constitution states life, liberty and happiness.  There's a difference....for everybody.

WRONG

14th amendment says Life, Liberty, and Property.

Try reading the document before you quote it.

[Decker]

WRONG

14th amendment says Life, Liberty, and Property.

Try reading the document before you quote it.

Sorry friend, You are correct.  It's the declaration I was referring to.

Your 14th amendment reference is the due process clause/Equal Protection Act but I fail to see how that defines our governmental purpose and function.   

I think our country's principles are set out in the declaration of independence.  And running with the idea that our country is one of democracy, liberty, happiness, the constitution has become better than originally drafted.  No more slavery.  The women get the vote. Segregation is nixed.



 

[24KT]

So you are saying that I should be happy to pay someone so they don't rob me?

Stick to pimping your fuel pills bitch.

ooooooooooh, ...methinks I've struck a tender little nerve. 

[Dos Equis]

I think our country's principles are set out in the declaration of independence. 
 

Including this part?  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ." 

[24KT]

Including this part?  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ." 

Just because someone is a deist, ...doesn't mean they are Christians. I can see you coming from a mile away.

[CQ]

How about Single mom Whores with 4 kids they cannot support on their own, are these programs also good for them?

How about those that don't hurry to get another job, because they make out quite well with unemployment and WIC for their children.

How about those that cheat the system (and there are MANY of them) and get a doctor to say they are disabled and can't work, so they collect SSI.

And what about individuals like me that do nothing but PAY MANY TIMES THEIR FAIR SHARE IN TAXES, but take nothing out.

I've never once collected unemployment, food stamps, WIC, SSI, SS, the list goes on.

Do you not see how I (the responsible) am punished, while the dead wood in society is rewarded?

I'm sorry, I know it's obnoxious for me to say in my position, but I empathize. I see the greater point of welfare programs, but the individual perspective of working hard than having to pay for others must be very annoying to live with.

[Dos Equis]

Just because someone is a deist, ...doesn't mean they are Christians. I can see you coming from a mile away.

I didn't say anything about Christianity. 

[CQ]

I'm talking about YOU right now. If YOU like ROn's policies, (which you said you do) why have you wasted effort and time constantly bringing up his dressing style and orating skill? Unless one means more to you than the other. Now do you understand what Im trying to say?

Missed this, so plz excuse my late response.

It's just as wasteful of time and effort to discuss his policies as they stand *zero* chance of being used.  We both wasted time really, as well all do here - chances are no official entity come to Getbig to get policy positions

It was his policy of doing things that made him not stand a chance that I was discussing. I could care less how he dresses, I'm not going to date the man. Ew.

[tleilaxutank]

Stormshadow you should listen to Decker...


Does anyone know who Pareto was and what it is he found?  ::Crickets Chirping::


Fair Tax= Rich get richer = Plutocracy    Anybody know what a plutocracy is?


The thing that makes republicans and libertarians prey on the greed of the middle class to support their ideas...they think because liberals want to tax the rich it means their taxes go up...


Taxation has more purposes than just funding the goverment.  Our founding fathers were very concerned with people accumulating enough wealth to have "king like power"

[Bindare_Dundat]

Missed this, so plz excuse my late response.

It's just as wasteful of time and effort to discuss his policies as they stand *zero* chance of being used.  We both wasted time really, as well all do here - chances are no official entity come to Getbig to get policy positions

It was his policy of doing things that made him not stand a chance that I was discussing. I could care less how he dresses, I'm not going to date the man. Ew.

No worries, we're all busy, just some more than others on getbig. 

Anyway, just about all his policies are  based around the constitution. He's the strictest constitutionalist there is, so are you suggesting the constitution is meaningless?

[CQ]

No worries, we're all busy, just some more than others on getbig. 

Anyway, just about all his policies are  based around the constitution. He's the strictest constitutionalist there is, so are you suggesting the constitution is meaningless?

Honestly, I am not some constitution buff so my opinions there would be world class drivel, worse than my normal posts

I just liked most everything I read, and heard from him...foreign policy, Patriot Act, Iraq etc.

[Decker]

Including this part?  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ." 

That was put there to make it clear to the King that God provided the rights and not England's royalty.

It's a useful fiction b/c it's fairly plain that the rights exist b/c men created them in a binding social contract.

[MRDUMPLING]

Stormshadow you should listen to Decker...


Does anyone know who Pareto was and what it is he found?  ::Crickets Chirping::


Fair Tax= Rich get richer = Plutocracy    Anybody know what a plutocracy is?


The thing that makes republicans and libertarians prey on the greed of the middle class to support their ideas...they think because liberals want to tax the rich it means their taxes go up...


Taxation has more purposes than just funding the goverment.  Our founding fathers were very concerned with people accumulating enough wealth to have "king like power"

Pareto founded the "Pareto principle" or the 80/20 rule.  It is used in pretty much all sciences and not just micro economics. 

I wouldn't say the greed of the middle class.  It's just that as of right now the middle class "feels" it pays most of the taxes(it's also the biggest economic class) and most middle class still live paycheck to paycheck, hence the lack of wanting many social programs etc.(get out and work blah, blah)  Again, as Decker and I were speaking, there is a difference between "A" Fair Tax and "The" Fair Tax.  Regardless, our current tax code is wasteful, confusing, time consuming, and it isn't very fair to anybody except the rich hence, the reason a fair tax bill is in place.  Something does need to change with the tax code. 

Yes, most people do get scared when they want to tax the rich.  Because most "liberals" as you put it don't just want to tax the rich, they want to increase taxes across the board and even have the hikes trickle into the middle class.  I have heard sums as low as $70,000, that is by no means "rich".  While I agree with a slight raise in taxes as I understand the economic predicament we are in, there must be a balance so the middle class doesn't get stuck with the bill.

[tleilaxutank]

Pareto founded the "Pareto principle" or the 80/20 rule.  It is used in pretty much all sciences and not just micro economics. 

I wouldn't say the greed of the middle class.  It's just that as of right now the middle class "feels" it pays most of the taxes(it's also the biggest economic class) and most middle class still live paycheck to paycheck, hence the lack of wanting many social programs etc.(get out and work blah, blah)  Again, as Decker and I were speaking, there is a difference between "A" Fair Tax and "The" Fair Tax.  Regardless, our current tax code is wasteful, confusing, time consuming, and it isn't very fair to anybody except the rich hence, the reason a fair tax bill is in place.  Something does need to change with the tax code. 

Yes, most people do get scared when they want to tax the rich.  Because most "liberals" as you put it don't just want to tax the rich, they want to increase taxes across the board and even have the hikes trickle into the middle class.  I have heard sums as low as $70,000, that is by no means "rich".  While I agree with a slight raise in taxes as I understand the economic predicament we are in, there must be a balance so the middle class doesn't get stuck with the bill.

Pareto's rule can be found in many sciences, you are correct, but he discovered it by analyzing the wealth distributions in many nations (past and present), which is why it is most famously used in economics and more recently quality control..

Most agree that middle and lower class are paying too much taxes.  Dems are targeting the 33% + (that means if you are single and make over 164k per year (taxable income)) then your taxes are going up in a year...sorry

[Bindare_Dundat]

I don't know why some people complicate things so much.

Instead of debating who's taxing philosophy works best no one even bothered to ask if the federal government has the right to collect and spend certain taxes. Some taxes, like the income tax are immoral collections, imo. That tax is no different than saying that you are a slave and the governemnt will decide how much of your dollars, earned through the exchange of your time and effort, you are allowed to keep.

I can understand the need for taxes but does that one in particular sound just as screwed up to anyone else?

[Dos Equis]

That was put there to make it clear to the King that God provided the rights and not England's royalty.

It's a useful fiction b/c it's fairly plain that the rights exist b/c men created them in a binding social contract.

So when you said you "think our country's principles are set out in the declaration of independence," you meant every part except "useful fiction" portion? 

[Deicide]

So when you said you "think our country's principles are set out in the declaration of independence," you meant every part except "useful fiction" portion? 

You're not going to start inventing stories about Jefferson and company being Christians are you?

[Dos Equis]

You're not going to start inventing stories about Jefferson and company being Christians are you?

Not at all Troll. 

[shootfighter1]

Some good points all around.
CQ, I agree about Ron's less than outstanding public speaking and appearance.  Even though it shouldn't affect his messages, it does. 

Decker, some people criticize programs like welfare, medicaid, WIC, ect because there is so much abuse in the system.  I see it first hand every day working in medicine.  Some people really need it, whether its temporary or permanent because of age or disability...but a large % of people are abusing the system.  I have a lot of first hand experience with this unfortunately.  There's also a viscious cycle of dependency that is hard to break because of how the system is structured.

About social security...Everyone gets the same amount when they qualify, correct?  So, by paying a flat rate, people who make more, still pay more into the system but get the same amount when it pays out.  That means they are helping to fund others.  Is that right? (I'm not 65...haha).  If thats true, then it does not exactly favor the rich, even if its capped at $105,000...its just not a progressive, graduated tax like income tax.